George Foreman's Punching Power

Off Topic
21

[quote]kligor wrote:
deanosumo wrote:
Tyson vs. Foreman? Remember, F=massXacceleration, and while Foreman was bigger and stronger, I have never seen a heavyweight with a quicker punch than Tyson when he was 21 or so.

That was what I thought too. I was watching one of his training videos back in the Cus D’Amato days, and his hand speed was just blinding. Even a featherweight would be jealous of such a speed.

[/quote]

You guys are talking about hand speed and boxing skills. That is not the same thing as raw punching power.

Tyson - young Tyson - would overwhelm his opponents with his punching speed. I’m not saying that he didn’t have any power, just look at the Michael Spinks fight if you want an example of just how strong Tyson was.

But even on his best day, I don’t think Tyson posessed the ability to generate a 2-inch uppercut in the 11th round that would render an opponent unable to control bodily functions. Foreman did, Even after his comeback - he was always just one quick punch away from winning the fight.

22

[quote]kligor wrote:
Chris (NZ) wrote:
You can definately get equipment to measure the pounds per square inch of a punch or kick.

The only time I have seen a pro use one was Ray Sefo who is in K1.

The guy interviewing him on tv hit the pad as hard as he could, then Ray stepped up and got over 5 times the psi of the untrained guy.

I have forgotten the exact numbers though.

But this is when the guy gets to get set up just right and the target isn’t moving.

When I think of the machine that measures psi, I imagine Rocky IV. Ivan Drago had a 2000 psi punch. Now, I didn’t know what that meant, since I had no reference point. Then I saw a documentary on the discovery channel, about Matt Mullins return to martial arts competition (the one which showed the biomechanics of martial arts). They were using the psi machine also. He kicked the machine as hard as he could with a back leg roundhouse kick (not a Muay Thai roundhouse, but more a TKD roundhouse), and that read 2000 psi.

Now, there’s a reference point. Ivan Drago had the kind of power in a punch, that a full grown (probably ~170 pound) man had in a full contact kick. I thought that kind of power was purely fictional, but could it be that George Foreman’s power is similar to that (within a range of 300 psi)?

Something to ponder.[/quote]

To the point of 2000lbs PSI if you were hit in the head with that much force, you would likley die. Of course the pad was fixed against a stationary object, so there is give when your head snaps back. And then there is the fact that boxers wear gloves, which will lessen it even more. And add in the fact that a boxer isn’t generating thier max power on any one punch because they are moving around and are just slightly out of perfect balance, and they are throwing a punch at a moving target most of the time.

I would say top end power in a boxing match would get to the 800lb psi or maybe even up to 1000. Now take Cro cop and some of his kicks to the head might be closer to 1500 psi.

If forman and tyson both got to punch the PSI test pad, I think foreman would probably come ou ton top, but it wouldn’t be by much.

V

23

I wouldnt make to much out of the scientific measurement of a guy’s punching power with shields or meters or whatever. I have never known any fighter to do this(maybe with the exception of Ray Sefo above, which I never heard). That clown from the Extreme Martial Arts show is a non-contact competitor. They were making a fuss out of his magic psi number when he probably doesnt hit that hard at all because thats not what he trains to do.

Fighters know explosive power when the see(or feel) a guy hit heavy bags, pads or, most importantly, people. I held pads for Chuck Liddell and I swear to christ he cuts right through them. Swivel probably made the best point about watching Foreman hit the heavy bag
in that documentary. Its scary and thats really all the proof you need.

While Im at it, knocking people out isnt just about hitting hard. In fact, it easily has as much to do with timing and reflexes. Good timing with good explosive power equals knockouts.

24

A “long time ago”, when Foreman came out of retirement the first time (late 80’s early 90’s) Sports Illustrated interviewed 10 guys that fought Foreman in his prime. Some of their stories where completely amazing. If I recall correctly, one of the guys said Foreman hit him with a right in the first round and the whole left side of his body went numb until he knocked him out in the 3rd. It could take some time, but a thorough search of the SI archives might produce this article.

25

About 10 years ago I had the opportunity to meet Joe Frazier. He was doing a benefit that one of my good friends was in charge of. I worked with Frazier on this benefit for several days and got to know him a bit.

One day I asked him to show me his “lethal” left hook. At first he just tapped me in the stomach. I could feel it, but having rock hard abs I wanted the full blown punch!

I begged him to give me a “real shot.” There I stood flexed and ready (and stupid). It was fast and furious! And
it drove me back about 12 feet bruised my ribs and I really couldn’t move without pain for about three weeks.

We spoke after this and he told me that his punch was nothing compared to (in his words) “Big George.” In Fraziers own words: "No one in the world ever hit me harder than George Foreman, cause no one in the world hits harder than George Foreman.

Of course Frazier never fought Mike Tyson, but I have to believe that based upon size alone Foreman had the harder punch.

26

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I begged him to give me a “real shot.” There I stood flexed and ready (and stupid). It was fast and furious! And
it drove me back about 12 feet bruised my ribs and I really couldn’t move without pain for about three weeks.
[/quote]

That is the funniest thing I’ve read in the the last 2 weeks!

I can just picture you standing there thinking that you could handle a Frazier hook, and the ensuing proof that you really couldn’t.

I think it is a testament to Ali’s (who I have really never liked) boxing SKILL. He bested both of these guys not by superior strength or power, but by out thinking them, and using his ring savvy.

God - I wish the Heavyweights could have a run like they did in the late 60’s through the end of the 70’s. I guess we can all send Don King a heartfelt “thank you” for almost single handedly ruining the sport.

27

[quote]Vegita wrote:

To the point of 2000lbs PSI if you were hit in the head with that much force, you would likley die. [/quote]

True. That’s exactly what happened in Rocky IV. But good point. It was a bit naive to think that either Foreman or Tyson punches with that kind of power.

But if both fighters hit the machine under the same conditions, we still get a fairly accurate comparison of their power.

[quote]
And add in the fact that a boxer isn’t generating thier max power on any one punch because they are moving around and are just slightly out of perfect balance, and they are throwing a punch at a moving target most of the time.

I would say top end power in a boxing match would get to the 800lb psi or maybe even up to 1000. Now take Cro cop and some of his kicks to the head might be closer to 1500 psi. [/quote]

That was my estimate as well.

28

[quote]ZEB wrote:
About 10 years ago I had the opportunity to meet Joe Frazier. He was doing a benefit that one of my good friends was in charge of. I worked with Frazier on this benefit for several days and got to know him a bit.

One day I asked him to show me his “lethal” left hook. At first he just tapped me in the stomach. I could feel it, but having rock hard abs I wanted the full blown punch!

I begged him to give me a “real shot.” There I stood flexed and ready (and stupid). It was fast and furious! And
it drove me back about 12 feet bruised my ribs and I really couldn’t move without pain for about three weeks.

We spoke after this and he told me that his punch was nothing compared to (in his words) “Big George.” In Fraziers own words: "No one in the world ever hit me harder than George Foreman, cause no one in the world hits harder than George Foreman.

Of course Frazier never fought Mike Tyson, but I have to believe that based upon size alone Foreman had the harder punch. [/quote]

Ouch! Well, at least you can brag at parties. “You know, I once got hit by Joe Frazier. He didn’t have much of a punch, especially against guys with abs like mine. I could take him any day of the week.”

29

To add my two cents on meters not being enough, I held pads for just a regular kid in one class. Didn’t pay too much attention, and ended up with a black eye from my own knuckle from not resisting his hooks sufficiently. He could pound away with his fists and I wouldn’t say he was particularly strong. I can’t imagine a professional.

Regarding timing and reflexes, I’ve read that there’s another phenomenen in that you have to maintain contact for a sufficient amount of time in order for all of the kinetic energy to dissipate fully into the unlucky sod on the receiving end. So just firing a punch without landing it solidly would take away from the impact. From that, I assume someone who throws a punch well lands it solidly because of timing/experience/etc. and makes more of an impact because of it.

30

Foreman is probably stronger than Tyson so I would say Foreman had the better punch,but I’m still a fan of Iron Mike Tyson.

31

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Of course Frazier never fought Mike Tyson, but I have to believe that based upon size alone Foreman had the harder punch. [/quote]

totally.
foreman is huge. huge bones and huge, huge, fists. one of the reasons he could ko with a tap. sure you can make an argument for speed on paper but mass always wins for real. look what happens when you throw a pin at a bowling ball.

32

[quote]flynniec6 wrote:
Regarding timing and reflexes, I’ve read that there’s another phenomenen in that you have to maintain contact for a sufficient amount of time in order for all of the kinetic energy to dissipate fully into the unlucky sod on the receiving end. So just firing a punch without landing it solidly would take away from the impact. From that, I assume someone who throws a punch well lands it solidly because of timing/experience/etc. and makes more of an impact because of it.[/quote]

Maintaining contact is one way to punch. The other is snapping. The difference is the first method, where you maintain contact, the opponent will be pushed back a good deal. This is one way to KO.

The other way is making contact for a brief moment, and focusing on a quick retraction. The opponent won’t go back an inch, but will rather freeze, and will “collapse” internally.

The latter usually hurts more. But I imagine this would’ve been the difference between a Tyson punch and a Foreman punch. Foreman would’ve been the explosive puncher, and Tyson was the implosive puncher.

33

[quote]kligor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
About 10 years ago I had the opportunity to meet Joe Frazier. He was doing a benefit that one of my good friends was in charge of. I worked with Frazier on this benefit for several days and got to know him a bit.

One day I asked him to show me his “lethal” left hook. At first he just tapped me in the stomach. I could feel it, but having rock hard abs I wanted the full blown punch!

I begged him to give me a “real shot.” There I stood flexed and ready (and stupid). It was fast and furious! And
it drove me back about 12 feet bruised my ribs and I really couldn’t move without pain for about three weeks.

We spoke after this and he told me that his punch was nothing compared to (in his words) “Big George.” In Fraziers own words: "No one in the world ever hit me harder than George Foreman, cause no one in the world hits harder than George Foreman.

Of course Frazier never fought Mike Tyson, but I have to believe that based upon size alone Foreman had the harder punch.

Ouch! Well, at least you can brag at parties. “You know, I once got hit by Joe Frazier. He didn’t have much of a punch, especially against guys with abs like mine. I could take him any day of the week.”[/quote]

Great story ZEB! Once in a lifetime deal… Too cool.

I’m going to fall on the side of Big George as well, he just seemed to have that lethal power where if he let loose his opponent was going down, and hard. The Moorer fight is a good example.

One name I haven’t seen mentioned as a power puncher was Riddick Bowe… I remember seeing him in the 88 olympics dance around the ring a bit, take shots from either a Polish guy or a Russian guy, get yelled at from his corner, he actually dropped his hands, looked to the corner, and as the opponent approached he reached out with a right and floored him, one punch… Now granted, this was Olympic style talent, not the level of competition as traditional boxing, but Riddick had lethal quicks and the power to back it up… He was just too stupid in the end.

GAINER

34

[quote]rainjack wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I begged him to give me a “real shot.” There I stood flexed and ready (and stupid). It was fast and furious! And
it drove me back about 12 feet bruised my ribs and I really couldn’t move without pain for about three weeks.

That is the funniest thing I’ve read in the the last 2 weeks!

I can just picture you standing there thinking that you could handle a Frazier hook, and the ensuing proof that you really couldn’t.

I think it is a testament to Ali’s (who I have really never liked) boxing SKILL. He bested both of these guys not by superior strength or power, but by out thinking them, and using his ring savvy.

God - I wish the Heavyweights could have a run like they did in the late 60’s through the end of the 70’s. I guess we can all send Don King a heartfelt “thank you” for almost single handedly ruining the sport.

[/quote]

I had been kicked in the midsection plenty of times in Karate and I had bounced at a pretty tough bar, so the mind set was there for that very foolish decision. It honestly felt like someone hit me with a jack hammer! Also keep in mind that during the mid 1990’s when this happened Frazier was well past his prime.

Yes, I felt like a sissy man :slight_smile:

As to your comments about Don King I could not agree more. What he single handedly did to boxing is despicable.

35

[quote]GoodKnight wrote:
Mad Titan wrote:
I have watched the majority of foreman’s fight and pretty much all of Tyson fight. Its really had to say. Before Tyson got screwed over by Don king with him giving tyson trainers who didn’t know how to train and his tax attorney during his rape trial. He was as good as advertised. The guy who said tyson’s defense was considerable was right on the money. Tyson’s speed was incredible as well coupled with the fact that he can take a punch. If tyson in his prime took on foreman in his prime I give it to Tyson. Speed and Power (not to mention a great defense) made him unstoppable in his prime. By the time he fought Buster. he had new trainers. He stopped attacking the body like he used and became a head hunter. His defense became virtually non existent too.

But to answer your question I think they are both pretty much even. However, Tyson has an edge with his speed.

No no no, Forman would have been Tysons worst nightmare, Forman would muscle Tyson and would not back away but push forward. He would knock down Tyson repeditly until Tyson chose not to get up.
As far as who was a more devistating puncher. Forman hsd brute strength, Tyson hsd speed and violence of action. Tyson has a better one punch knockout, jarring flash knockdowns. Forman had punishing, pushing, smashing punches.[/quote]

Tyson had more than violence of action my friend. I have seen fights where his punch came just from two inches away and the commentators sitting ring side where asking what the hell happened the had to watch the replay of the fight on the screen just to see that tyson did hit the guy. I have also seen him uppercut a guy so hard his both his feet came off the canvas. (the guy was 6’4).

The funniest was the guy he knocked through the ropes and of course all these fights (most of his fights for that matter) were 1st and 2nd round knockouts. if he fought foreman I really don’t think he will be able land a good punch. His speed and defense during his prime was incredible. During one fight I couldn’t believe how low he went to avoid the fighter’s punch and how fast he did it. Then He popped up and floored the guy. Like the saying goes speed kills

36

[quote]swivel wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Of course Frazier never fought Mike Tyson, but I have to believe that based upon size alone Foreman had the harder punch.

totally.
foreman is huge. huge bones and huge, huge, fists. one of the reasons he could ko with a tap. sure you can make an argument for speed on paper but mass always wins for real. look what happens when you throw a pin at a bowling ball. [/quote]

The formula is still mass times acceleration. You need both to hit hard. The counterexample to the bowling analogy is a bullet. Wouldnt do much if I threw it at you, but look what happens
when it comes out of a firearm. Not that Im really arguing that much of Foreman’s crushing power came from his huge structure.

The hardest I have ever been hit in my life was a 150 pound guy, and Ive been hit quite a few times. Just caught me right and he hit like a freight train to begin with(it was also a kick, which lends itself to the mass argument).

37

hahaha. Zeb that story is awesome! Its being able to say you got wacked by Joe Frazier that somehow, in a strange way, makes life worth living (I’m serious).

On a side note, not to say that Foreman wasn’t strong, but there is one guy who hit harder, and had a higher knockout percentage, and it is Rocky Marciano (I’m part Italian I gotta bring him up).

I read this website a long time ago, and it gives merit to this…here are some quotes:

How does a 187 pound man hit harder than a 200+ pound man when both are trained fighters? There’s an axiom in boxing that says “You can?t teach power. Either a fighter is born with it or not.” Hundreds and hundreds of fighters have proven it to be true. One heavyweight is a formidable knockout artist while another rarely hurts an opponent and must win by points, even though they might be identical in height, weight, and the size of their muscles. "

Here is one relating to George Foreman:
"Where the power came from might be best illustrated in a letter I received from a doctor who works with internal medical problems and trauma. He told me this: “Now what determines the power of a punch? I mean the formula? The effect of a punch is calculated by the energy applied at the sight of the hit. So the kinetic energy of Marciano’s punch, that is the degree of damage the punch would generate, is equal to 1/2 mass x velocity x velocity (1/2mv2). Rocky’s was equal to the mass of the arm plus the weight he shoved forward with body weight. Next, he hit in close. As your arm moves forward the time from beginning to end increases as you increase the distance of the thrown punch. Since velocity = feet per sec, that means the longer the range the less velocity. Now the energy generated is, remember, mass times vel x vel. Well if your punches are so much shorter, traveling only a few inches, your velocity is incredible! And the transmitted energy at impact is enormous! That calculation of energy is the destructive force (damage) to the body. Basically he broke his opponents up inside. Had George Foreman been a swarmer, he would have been a better fighter. He was a slugger. But as strong as he was he hit from too far away. Frazier was not as powerful as Marciano. He had a similar style, but didn’t hit as hard (didn’t use shifting weight, etc).”

Marciano’s KO percentage is 88%, the highest of ANY heavyweight champion in the history of boxing!
George Foreman 87%
Joe Frazier 84%
James Jefferies 83%
Jack Dempsey 79%
Joe Louis 78%
Sonny Liston 78%

I know the site may be biased because the dude loves Marciano, but I think the facts are correct.

38

Joe Frazier was a GREAT champion.

Foreman knocked him out.

As dominant as Tyson was, he never beat another great fighter in his prime by KO.

39

[quote]roofus_5 wrote:
A “long time ago”, when Foreman came out of retirement the first time (late 80’s early 90’s) Sports Illustrated interviewed 10 guys that fought Foreman in his prime. Some of their stories where completely amazing. If I recall correctly, one of the guys said Foreman hit him with a right in the first round and the whole left side of his body went numb until he knocked him out in the 3rd. It could take some time, but a thorough search of the SI archives might produce this article.
[/quote]

Do you know if I could find that article online? I looked on the SI website, but couldn’t find archives. Maybe there’s another place to look for it?

40

[quote]Neuro Muscular wrote:
Joe Frazier was a GREAT champion.

Foreman knocked him out.

As dominant as Tyson was, he never beat another great fighter in his prime by KO.

[/quote]

of foreman and tyson.foreman was the stronger of the two and also the harder hitting punch for punch.
foreman doesn’t punch with his body,he doesn’t throw text book punches either.most of his punches are clubbing arm punches,yet he still produces loads of power.

as to who would win.
tyson had speed,power,and stamina.
tysons style seems to be perfect for george,and it might be.however,if george didn’t ko mike in 4 rnds.i feel mike’s better conditioning,and speed,would eventually fell big george.