Dave Tate, from my understanding, is a completely natural powerlifter. He is quite big and quite strong, but he has been lifting for many years with dedication, dieting, and what not. My question is that he is a 230 LBS lean, and maybe that is his genetic limit. I am just wondering if genetic limits can actually be reached. Lets say Dave, (I just keep using him as an example because its easy), will have the Testosterone production of a 20 year old male for the rest of his life, for discussion purposes. Would he ever really have a genetic limit, or is a genetic limit how hard you can lift up until the years when your T start to drop?
If I confused some people on this post I apologize. My way of thinking is… different.
Your genetic ‘ceiling’ as you will is not only limited by testosterone production. So, yes. Furthermore, I find it highly unlikely that anyone is going to have the same testosterone levels at 55 as they do at 20 no matter how superior their training and diet is. So, it’s not really applicable in the real world.
[quote]jsbrooks wrote:
Your genetic ‘ceiling’ as you will is not only limited by testosterone production. So, yes. Furthermore, I find it highly unlikely that anyone is going to have the same testosterone levels at 55 as they do at 20 no matter how superior their training and diet is. So, it’s not really applicable in the real world.[/quote]
It can be done synthetically, aka steroid use to maintain T levels equivalent to a 20 year old. My general question was since bodybuilders can get tremendously huge with steroids, can someone who only maintains the level of testosterone of a 20 year old guy and doesn’t over do it could keep gaining mass over the years. I would like to think yes, but more discussion and reasoning would have to be involved to support that line of thought.
I don’t think he is “natural”. Where did you get that impression? Most people will never put the time and effort in to even see if they are genetically gifted or not.
[quote]Thewannabe wrote:
jsbrooks wrote:
Your genetic ‘ceiling’ as you will is not only limited by testosterone production. So, yes. Furthermore, I find it highly unlikely that anyone is going to have the same testosterone levels at 55 as they do at 20 no matter how superior their training and diet is. So, it’s not really applicable in the real world.
It can be done synthetically, aka steroid use to maintain T levels equivalent to a 20 year old. My general question was since bodybuilders can get tremendously huge with steroids, can someone who only maintains the level of testosterone of a 20 year old guy and doesn’t over do it could keep gaining mass over the years. I would like to think yes, but more discussion and reasoning would have to be involved to support that line of thought.[/quote]
Synthetic testosterone [unless at HRT levels] takes you well beyond the levels of a 20 year old to supraphysiological levels. This means beyond a level your body can naturally produce. Testosterone IS important. That’s why many older lifters do use hormone replacement as well as legal T-boosters like Alpha Male along with training and diet to keep T levels as high as possible. But, as I said, testosterone is not the only thing that impacts muscle growth. Growth hormone is just one other factor. There are many. Growth hormone also decreases as you age. There are a host of factors that make it harder to add muscle as we enter into old age. They are only partially controllable. Anyhow, people still continue to gain mass over the years even though testosterone and other things naturally decrease. If there was a way to keep natural testosterone production at the level of a 20yr old throughout the lifespan, I’d like to hear of it. But there isn’t.
[quote]Thewannabe wrote:
Dave Tate, from my understanding, is a completely natural powerlifter. He is quite big and quite strong, but he has been lifting for many years with dedication, dieting, and what not. My question is that he is a 230 LBS lean, and maybe that is his genetic limit. [/quote]
He’s recently gotten to about 270 pounds lean. What makes you think he is natural.
[quote]will to power wrote:
Thewannabe wrote:
Dave Tate, from my understanding, is a completely natural powerlifter. He is quite big and quite strong, but he has been lifting for many years with dedication, dieting, and what not. My question is that he is a 230 LBS lean, and maybe that is his genetic limit.
He’s recently gotten to about 270 pounds lean. What makes you think he is natural.[/quote]
Dave has never professed to be natural. This whole post is a bit off and not really relevant to anything. I’m all for an interesting theoretical discussion on training and physiology. But it still needs to be grounded in reality. Not some pipe dream about maintaing testosterone levels of a 20 yr old at 65.
[quote]jsbrooks wrote:
will to power wrote:
Thewannabe wrote:
Dave Tate, from my understanding, is a completely natural powerlifter. He is quite big and quite strong, but he has been lifting for many years with dedication, dieting, and what not. My question is that he is a 230 LBS lean, and maybe that is his genetic limit.
He’s recently gotten to about 270 pounds lean. What makes you think he is natural.
Dave has never professed to be natural. This whole post is a bit off and not really relevant to anything. I’m all for an interesting theoretical discussion on training and physiology. But it still needs to be grounded in reality. Not some pipe dream about maintaing testosterone levels of a 20 yr old at 65. [/quote]
I know he’s never claimed to be natural. I’m trying to get the guy to start thinking about his assumptions.
[quote]Kalle wrote:
I fucking hate these posts. Why worry that you might reach your limit in 10-15 fucking years?!
Just eat and fucking train[/quote]
10 - 15 years isn’t needed for everyone to reach their genetic limit. My good friend Lance started lifting when he was 16. By the time he reached 22, he was 250 lbs lean (he’s 6’4") and he told me that he couldn’t gain anymore muscle weight no matter how good his diet was or how hard he trained.
He is steroid-free and now 24 years old and told me that he has not gained any weight in 2 years of stuffing his face with good food, supplementing like crazy, and lifting like a monster. I guess you can reach your genetic limit pretty early in life.
[quote]drummerofgod89 wrote:
Kalle wrote:
I fucking hate these posts. Why worry that you might reach your limit in 10-15 fucking years?!
Just eat and fucking train
10 - 15 years isn’t needed for everyone to reach their genetic limit. My good friend Lance started lifting when he was 16. By the time he reached 22, he was 250 lbs lean (he’s 6’4") and he told me that he couldn’t gain anymore muscle weight no matter how good his diet was or how hard he trained.
He is steroid-free and now 24 years old and told me that he has not gained any weight in 2 years of stuffing his face with good food, supplementing like crazy, and lifting like a monster. I guess you can reach your genetic limit pretty early in life.[/quote]
It is generally accepted that you reach your peak in your mid-late 30’s so I seriously doubt some guy 24 years of age simply couldn’t gain any more muscle mass. If someone claims they can’t gain weight, the problem is THEIR DIET.
How much of that gain is muscle mass is reliant on their effort and genetics. Gains slow down the closer you are to an extreme and take even more food and patience to instigate. Just because they slow down does not mean they come to a complete stop.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
drummerofgod89 wrote:
Kalle wrote:
I fucking hate these posts. Why worry that you might reach your limit in 10-15 fucking years?!
Just eat and fucking train
10 - 15 years isn’t needed for everyone to reach their genetic limit. My good friend Lance started lifting when he was 16. By the time he reached 22, he was 250 lbs lean (he’s 6’4") and he told me that he couldn’t gain anymore muscle weight no matter how good his diet was or how hard he trained.
He is steroid-free and now 24 years old and told me that he has not gained any weight in 2 years of stuffing his face with good food, supplementing like crazy, and lifting like a monster. I guess you can reach your genetic limit pretty early in life.
It is generally accepted that you reach your peak in your mid-late 30’s so I seriously doubt some guy 24 years of age simply couldn’t gain any more muscle mass. If someone claims they can’t gain weight, the problem is THEIR DIET.
How much of that gain is muscle mass is reliant on their effort and genetics. Gains slow down the closer you are to an extreme and take even more food and patience to instigate. Just because they slow down does not mean they come to a complete stop.[/quote]
That’s what I thought. Believe me, I am on your side. It’s just that how can a guy who’s been bodybuilding for 6 years suddenly not know how to get bigger? I’ll ask him about it and get back to this topic with a post with his response. He really hasn’t gained any weight for a long time now.
Wait, what about Arnold? Didn’t he peak in size in his mid twenties? Was he any bigger from his 1975 to his 1980 Mr. Olympia title? I consider his 1974 body to be his peak, which would make him, what, 27? Just throwing in my opinion.
[quote]drummerofgod89 wrote:
Kalle wrote:
I fucking hate these posts. Why worry that you might reach your limit in 10-15 fucking years?!
Just eat and fucking train
10 - 15 years isn’t needed for everyone to reach their genetic limit. My good friend Lance started lifting when he was 16. By the time he reached 22, he was 250 lbs lean (he’s 6’4") and he told me that he couldn’t gain anymore muscle weight no matter how good his diet was or how hard he trained.
He is steroid-free and now 24 years old and told me that he has not gained any weight in 2 years of stuffing his face with good food, supplementing like crazy, and lifting like a monster. I guess you can reach your genetic limit pretty early in life.[/quote]
Remember 250 at 6’4 is roughly the equivlant of 215 at 5’7 (pounds per inch) so big but not HUGE.
I doubt he has reached his genetic limits, he probably needs to change things up, I’ve heard of some people eating 7,000 calories to gain.
Anyways that wasn’t my point. My point is I bet your friend didn’t get to be 250lbs lean by worrying about what his ultimate potential was before he even started. With that mindset I bet he would never have gotten as far as he has.
That’s what I thought. Believe me, I am on your side. It’s just that how can a guy who’s been bodybuilding for 6 years suddenly not know how to get bigger? [/quote]
It doesn’t mean he doesn’t know. It means he isn’t willing to do what it takes to see further progress. To maintain my current body weight involves me making eating a significant priority in itself. How many people do you know of who actually have the drive to do that? It is inconvenient and expensive where-as when I was first starting, it took much less food and effort to make progress…and I’m not even on the level as the guys who compete as heavyweights. For them, getting those meals in is even more important and time consuming, especially when dieting.
When you are first starting, anything you do, assuming significant effort, produces results. The more size you gain, the more effort it takes to see further progress. You can’t look at this through the eyes of a beginner and assume every advanced bodybuilder simply has to do what you’re doing.
Making no progress at all implies a lack of nutrition, not a lack of genetics, especially at that age.
[quote]
Wait, what about Arnold? Didn’t he peak in size in his mid twenties? Was he any bigger from his 1975 to his 1980 Mr. Olympia title? I consider his 1974 body to be his peak, which would make him, what, 27? Just throwing in my opinion.[/quote]
Arnold quit training seriously (as in competition serious) during those years before the 1980 Mr. Olympia. His focus was on his education and acting career (and women). There are photos of him looking not much more developed than “above average” during that period. The 1980 Olympia was his “comeback” so I wouldn’t exactly judge his progress as if it were continuous all of the way through.