Gas Prices

[quote]flabtoslab wrote:
Bigflamer is dead on about different blends of gas.

I have seen a report on The Farm Report dealing with fuel and fuel prices.

It seems that not only do states have varying laws regulating gas quality, but it could vary by region in the state. A one size fits all approach to gas manufacturing would surely stabilize prices.

Assuming only one grade and type of blend was available to everyone.
[/quote]

A one size fits all approach to gas manufacturing would standardize prices, not stabilize them. Gas is a commodity, so it is constantly fluctuating based upon supply and demand. Remember those two words, they are the only ones that matter with regard to a commodity, supply and demand. What this would do is level prices between markets because the product would be the same in all markets. There would be no differences in quality.

Then prices between markets would only be different based upon the following criteria: transportation, local taxes, and storage (this includes rent for the retailer-gas station). There are some other minor factors, but there are the big ones. Adding refining variances to the mix just complicates things for the refiners and makes their jobs more difficult to perform.

Now before someone responds with a ?big bad oil company? remark, realize that hundreds of thousands of people work in, and invest in these companies. (Yes if you have any form of pension or retirement money, you are an investor.) These people are just as concerned with doing a competitive, responsible, and effective job every day, just like all of you. Making these refiners shut down and change out the refinery more frequently than necessary to placate a politician who did not think out the ramifications of their actions definitely makes life more difficult and increases prices.

To give a small idea of the complexity of the energy market, check out this article from today’s WSJ:

Many Speculators
On High Oil Prices
Bailed Too Soon

By PETER A. MCKAY and HENNY SENDER
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
September 2, 2005; Page C1

Hurricane Katrina struck just as Wall Street’s latest bout of bullishness on energy prices was waning, with some speculators having recently exited from trades that would have been profitable and at least some booking losses, according to government data and interviews with money managers.

Plenty of big-money investors have spent much of this year betting on the trajectory of the price of oil and other power sources – and often getting it wrong, which is why relatively few speculators were in the energy markets when Katrina came ashore.

“The traders who fought the tape capitulated well before the storm,” says the head of oil trading at one investment bank.

While the general sentiment regarding energy was still bullish, it was less so than before. Evidence of that can be seen in weekly data from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission that tracks the activity of energy-markets speculators and funds. In the week ended Aug. 23, these traders reduced their net holdings of bullish, exchange-traded contracts for delivery of crude oil by about 60%, heating oil by 15% and gasoline by nearly 5%, the data show. Traders also said that some market players who were betting on continued price increases before Katrina were waiting for another spike so that they could book profits, a typical strategy in late-summer markets, where trading volumes normally drop and trading becomes more difficult.

With the energy markets now being driven more by fundamental analysis than by the twin forces of speculation and momentum, many traders remain on the sidelines.

“Quite a few hedge funds took positions off because of the potential volatility and uncertainty,” says Jonathan Taylor, head of commodities sales for Barclays Capital in New York. Given the increased volatility after the hurricane, traders are paying higher initial amounts on margin trades, Mr, Taylor adds.

However, the rally in oil futures and other energy products – up as much as 25% since the storm – suggests that some of the same players have rushed back in as buyers, analysts say. Likewise, the majority of hedge funds and trading desks that bet on oil in less direct ways – for instance, by buying shares in oil-producing companies – seem to have been emboldened all over again by the catastrophe.

“Katrina is a catalyst to accelerate what had been our market view coming into the year,” says David P. Prokupek, chief executive of Geronimo Partners, a hedge fund and money-management firm. “To me, the hurricane is just one of the many factors that will keep energy prices moving higher for some time.”

Although gasoline, natural gas and heating oil are all trading busily in the aftermath of the storm, the price of oil continues to be a catalyst for all other energy products, including lesser-known investments such as contracts based on freight transportation.

“Everyone is trying to figure out how much demand destruction there will be,” says Thomas Leaver of RAB Commodity/Energy Fund in London, using a term of art that describes the point at which energy prices climb so high that consumers cut back their purchases. “This is all new territory. Nobody knows what the intrinsic value of oil is.”

Indeed, there are other signs that the summer doldrums departed early because of Katrina-induced trading.

The Chicago Mercantile Exchange recorded its busiest day ever Wednesday, with total trading volume of nearly 10 million contracts. That news, in turn, boosted shares of the CME, which lists futures on stock indexes and interest rates. And the Chicago Board of Trade, where Treasury bond futures trade, reported record electronic volume Wednesday of almost four million contracts. While energy products don’t trade at either of these exchanges, dealings there reflected bets on the direction of the economy, including the Katrina effect and whether the Federal Reserve will slow the pace of interest-rate increases to help consumers facing higher energy prices.

Mr. Prokupek says his firm, which handles about $500 million in client money, had been holding its energy weighting steady before Katrina, around 12%. But since the storm, Geronimo has ratcheted that up to 15% by buying shares in diversified energy companies such as BP PLC and Exxon Mobil Corp., as well as exchange-traded funds that represent ownership in baskets of energy stocks.

For him to become bearish on energy, Mr. Prokupek says, crude prices will have to dip below $45 a barrel – a level that hasn’t been hit since early February and that would represent a decline of around 35% from current levels near $70 on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Some hedge funds have engaged in so-called relative-value trades in which they owned refined products – where the squeeze on supplies has been especially sharp – while adopting bearish positions on crude oil itself. Others going into the hurricane owned short-term contracts on both oil and gas but had bearish bets on longer-dated contracts, with a view that prices would decline in coming months. Many preferred to trade in options that gave them the right but not the obligation to buy or sell in coming months.

Analysts say it is too early to know whether any hedge funds had massive losses. One risk: In volatile markets, players whose trades have gone wrong may be reluctant to close out positions and take the losses, and will instead roll over those losing bets or even double them.

Meanwhile, the spillover of the volatility in energy markets continued to spook other markets. Metals companies were hit by fears that spiraling energy costs and slower economic growth would erode profits, while others argued that rebuilding would feed demand, particularly for copper. Those twin fears also put downward pressure on heavily indebted companies and the dollar.

And, of course, traders are debating bets on whether the refinery outages – more than 10% of the country’s refining gets done in the Gulf – will create a crunch that will drive retail gasoline prices to the point that consumers cut back their demand.

Forecasters this week have theorized about $4 or even $5 a gallon as the price point at which consumers might finally hit their limit. People who actually make bets on the market have been less likely to endorse such a view – but not because they see it as too bullish.

“No one really knows what the elasticity of demand is for crude or gas – it’s never really been tested,” said one executive at a small hedge fund.

[quote]freemark wrote:
There are basically 2 blends. One for lower pollution areas, one with special additives for higher areas. That distinction is mandated by the EPA. Different weather areas also cause a problem because the gas ‘blend’ needs to be different for 30 deg 20% hum at 5000ft hum compared to 95deg and 80% hum at 300 ft or else cars may not run right.

Also all refineries are supposedly running at capacity so no one has ‘extra’ to lower the price.

About the only way to lower the price right now would be say that oil companies can only make so many cents per gallon. But most people in Congress are against that type of market manipulation.[/quote]

You are dead on about the different specs for gasoline based upon weather and environmental differences. (Cold, heat, humidity, arid areas)

Refiners do not set prices. True, there is no ?extra? refining capacity in the US. We haven?t built a refinery in the largest industrialized nation in the world since the 70?s. Try getting a refinery permitted in the US today. Environmentally impossible, and if a certain president were to push it through, people would be all over him for kowtowing to the big oil companies.

Setting price controls on a commodity would be the stupidest thing we could possibly do if we want gasoline to be available in this country. Hawaii is trying to set price controls right now because they are complaining that their gas prices are too high. Someone should tell them that they are on an island in the middle of nowhere. A bit of a transportational challenge, and more expensive to reach than almost anywhere else in the US. When they set price caps, any rational person is going to sell their gas supplies to another consumer without price caps. They will have a supply shortage of gas, but their prices will be cheap. That is exactly what I want, a cheap commodity that I can?t buy. That is really helpful. While we are at it, lets set controls on supplements. They are dangerous after all. Or we can just let a free market economy work.

Now before anyone says that ?they? should only make so many cents per gallon, realize that these ?big bad oil companies? just as often sell at a loss as a profit. Yes, sometimes the market conditions are the opposite of what they are today, and the oil companies are losing billions of dollars. Where are your message boards then? Why isn?t anyone complaining that people need to make a living and these companies employ a lot of people and should be supported? They are not there because no one knows about them. People think that if they are selling gas, they are making money. Well, with tens of thousands of energy companies out there, I can assure you that in the long run, these companies make an average return that is reasonable in that business. The cycles are just very long. But I assure you, the business is highly competitive with that many players in it. Just because you only know of about four does not mean they are the only four. (Just because that guy in the gym doesn?t know overhead squats exist, doesn?t mean they don?t)

As far as the oil producing countries, (and I don?t say OPEC here because they only control 40% of the world?s production capacity), how many of them do you think are not producing every last drop that they can in order to capture these amazing prices. Put your business hat on. Why would you possibly constrain your production today? (At other times there are justifiable reasons to restrain supply. $5/barrel oil helps none of us. In the short run, gas is cheap, in the long run, the industry is devastated and there is no infrastructure.)

Now, there is a lot of speculation that we will have a supply-side crunch – at least temporarilty – on gas prices.

It’s interesting to note all the artificial costs tacked on to a gallon of gas – just note all the things the politicians are doing to attempt to lower costs: suspending or lowering gas taxes, making it easier to import European gas, suspending or reducing certain emissions and additive standards, etc.

Also interesting to note: the inflation-adjusted average price of a gallon of gas over the first few years of the early 1980s was around $3.00 per gallon in today’s dollars.


Damage to Oil and Gas Facilities
Pushes U.S. Closer to Energy Crisis

By RUSSELL GOLD and THADDEUS HERRICK
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
September 2, 2005; Page A1

Hurricane Katrina’s continuing disruption of a substantial portion of the Gulf Coast’s vast network of refineries and pipelines is pushing the U.S. closer to a 1970s-style energy crisis, straining the oil industry’s ability to deliver gasoline from Florida to Colorado, sending prices into uncharted territory and triggering panic among drivers in some areas.

Long gas lines were reported in Denver, Indianapolis, Hartford, Conn., Atlanta and Orlando, Fla., among other cities. In Charlotte, N.C., between 13% and 15% of stations had no gasoline and prices have soared as much as 70 cents a gallon in those stations that still have fuel to peddle, said Tom Crosby, a local AAA official there.

President Bush took the unusual step yesterday of urging Americans not to buy gasoline if they don’t have to. “Americans should be prudent in their use of energy,” he said in brief Oval Office remarks. “Don’t buy gas if you don’t need it.”

The president also made it easier for tankers to bring in gasoline from Europe, which has excess capacity for the fuel as motorists there increasingly buy diesel-powered cars. Wednesday, Mr. Bush temporarily lowered U.S. environmental standards that also eased the way for European gasoline.

The core of the unfolding situation is that four days after Hurricane Katrina pummeled the Gulf Coast, eight major refineries are still shut down and several could require a month or more to restart. In addition, there are early rumblings in the industry of significant, unreported damage to offshore pipelines, energy-gathering hubs and producing platforms that could take months to repair.

Neither Exxon Mobil Corp. nor Chevron Corp. released more than the briefest details about their offshore facilities. Royal Dutch Shell PLC reported damage to three key facilities: offshore producing platforms Mars and Cognac and a hub facility that gathers oil and gas from large deep-water platforms.

Shell reported yesterday that its Convent, La., refinery could initiate a restart in “about a week.” Chevron said its large Pascagoula, Miss., refinery had been saved by a dike built in 1998 that “prevented catastrophic damage.” Exxon said its giant Baton Rouge refinery was having pipeline and transportation issues and running at “reduced rates until normal feedstock supply and product movement is restored.”

Last year, Hurricane Ivan, a less-powerful storm, hurt oil production for months, pushing up energy prices world-wide after it upended pipeline networks in the Gulf of Mexico. The price of crude rose from $44 to above $50 for two months.

There was some good news. Valero Energy Corp. said power was restored to its St. Charles, La., refinery and Marathon Oil Co. said its Garyville, La., refinery could be producing gasoline by early next week. Two idled pipelines that had hampered fuel deliveries to the East Coast are now being brought back on line. Colonial Pipeline Co., knocked out of action by Katrina, said it was operating at 40% of capacity, with about 61% of capacity expected by day’s end. Plantation Pipe Line Co., which is majority-owned by Kinder Morgan Energy Partners LP, said it resumed limited service Wednesday. Plantation said it had been able to restore about 150,000 barrels of capacity per day, or nearly 25% of its average daily throughput.

Whether a true energy crisis emerges – with persistent fuel shortages, soaring gas prices and a wallop to the economy – will depend on how quickly the onshore and offshore infrastructure gets back up and running, how deftly the industry and government handle fuel distribution in the meantime and, critically, whether large numbers of consumers panic.

A rush to fill gasoline tanks in large parts of the country would quickly drain stockpiles, leading to shortages, hoarding, long lines and even sharper price spikes. If every driver in the U.S. fleet of 220 million vehicles topped off his tank with 10 gallons, that would be an additional 2.2 billion gallons of demand for gasoline and diesel inventories that stood on Aug. 19 at 8.19 billion gallons and 3.23 billion gallons, respectively.

“In terms of the scale and impact on the American market, this is comparable to the oil embargo” of 1973 and 1974, said Jay E. Fakes, head of the federal Energy Information Administration from 1993 to 2000. The only answer, he says, is immediate conservation. His call for drivers to cut back was echoed by such oil-industry heavyweights as the American Petroleum Institute and the Petroleum Marketers Association of America.

The industry’s ability to snuff out the gasoline-price spike is critical because if the crunch persists, it has the potential to significantly slow the U.S. and global economies or even trigger a recession. American consumers kept spending strongly through this summer even as crude-oil prices soared, largely because other factors – low interest rates, rising home values and cheap imports – offset the sting of higher prices at the pump. Their spending has been a linchpin of world-wide economic growth.

But signs of stress are emerging. Home values may be peaking. The government reported yesterday that the personal-saving rate dipped into negative territory for just the first time since the weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, suggesting consumers are going into debt to support their spending habits. A sustained gasoline-price shock, many economists warn, could help tip the economy into a recession.

Gasoline stations in some parts of the country say supplies are drying up. Worst hit are the unbranded retailers – stations that aren’t affiliated with a major oil company such as Exxon or Chevron but still account for about one-third of U.S. gasoline sales. Jenny Love, a spokeswoman for Love’s, an Oklahoma City-based chain of 160 interstate and highway locations, said some of the company’s outlets were out of both gasoline and diesel fuel. “The unbranded retailer is at the bottom of the totem pole,” she said. “There’s nothing we can do about it.”

Some service stations in gas-crimped areas like Atlanta were charging in excess of $5 a gallon for gas, before a gubernatorial state of emergency forced them to lower the price. The White House warned that federal officials would have “zero tolerance for price-gouging.”

Cary Gavant, a 58-year-old Atlanta broker, says he conserved fuel last night by driving more slowly than usual on the 50 miles north on I-75 toward his suburban home from Atlanta and noticed that many other drivers were doing so, too. “The thought of not having gasoline was terrifying,” he said.

While the triggering event for the country’s energy squeeze was the destruction Katrina unleashed on the vital gasoline-producing region of Louisiana and Mississippi, the scene was set for this catastrophe by both drivers and the energy industry. U.S. drivers pump 11% of the world’s crude oil into their tanks in the form of gasoline, and increasingly over the past couple of decades they have been buying gas-guzzling SUVs and pickup trucks.

At the same time, the oil industry has been reluctant to invest in new refinery capacity because of historically low returns, even while refiners have pared back inventories to beef up margins. This reluctance has shrunk U.S. and international spare refining capacity, creating a world-wide gasoline-delivery system hard-pressed to cope with a major disruption such as the one wrought by Katrina.

Even though these twin trends were well-known, the scope of the disruption has caught even long-time oil-refining veterans by surprise. “In my 30 years, I do not remember a time like this,” says Tom O’Malley, former chairman of Premcor Inc., a major U.S. refiner acquired this year by Valero. “It is absolutely clear that a significant amount of refining capacity that is currently down will take time to come up. And I don’t think it’s a matter of days. For some refineries, it could be a matter of months. There is certainly going to be a domestic product shortfall.”

Still, Mr. O’Malley doesn’t believe the U.S. is headed for an energy crisis. The rocketing wholesale and retail gasoline prices should fall back soon, as tankers full of gasoline from Europe begin arriving. “I think the industry, you will find, will do an amazing job of coming up with supply. It’s a question of weeks, but this is no long-term problem.”

Industry experts said they expect the refineries hardest hit by the hurricane to be out of service for more than a month since flooding can ruin the electric pumps that send crude oil through a refinery’s complex system of pipes. “It looks quite serious,” said Bob Funk, who recently retired as head of planning from Citgo Petroleum Corp., a U.S. refiner and subsidiary of Venezuela’s national oil company. Mr. Funk expressed particular concern for a plant run by Exxon Mobil and Petroleos de Venezuela in Chalmette, La., which is on the Mississippi River near downtown New Orleans. Exxon Mobil said it couldn’t provide any information on potential damage at the Chalmette refinery.

The extent of the probable damage to the plants struck by the storm, he says, is likely to be more than the Gulf Coast work force can repair, meaning refiners will have to bring workers in from other parts of the country. That and the extensive flooding are likely to slow refinery repair efforts. Even when the refineries are up and running it is unclear whether they will have adequate staffing, given the flood damage in surrounding communities and neighborhoods where workers live.

And while European traders reported as many as 20 bookings in the past two days for tankers to carry gasoline across the Atlantic, the shipments won’t provide immediate relief. The ships are scheduled to load gasoline at European ports later this month but will take as long as three weeks before reaching East Coast ports like New York. On top of that, traders are finding it difficult to find available ships. Rates for trans-Atlantic voyage have soared in the past few days as shipbrokers try to line up tonnage.

While most attention was on the onshore infrastructure, there were ominous signs of damage to the offshore platforms and pipelines that produce one-quarter of U.S. oil. Shell reported that its West Delta 143 platform, which serves a pipeline hub, needed substantial repairs. Less than 20% of energy production within the Gulf of Mexico had been restored yesterday, according to the federal Minerals Management Service. Four days after Hurricane Ivan last year, 60% of production had been restarted, the agency said.

Ivan scrambled numerous critical underwater pipelines, essentially leaving functional producing platforms with no way to get the oil and gas to shore. Robert Bea, Shell’s former chief engineer in the U.S. and a longtime student of the impact of hurricanes on the Gulf’s energy infrastructure, says he has heard from a network of oilfield workers that the damage to pipelines and platforms could be “10 times what we saw in Ivan.”

Even before Katrina, the refining industry faced a severe capacity crunch, a problem that promised to limit the prospects for cheaper gasoline, diesel and jet fuel for at least several years. Nor is it exclusively a U.S. problem: Growing demand for oil from China, India and other rising powers is aggravating the shortfall in refining and threatening to keep prices elevated for years.

While global demand is expected to grow by nearly two million barrels a day this year – from 82.5 million barrels a day last year – the world’s capacity to refine and process crude oil is expected to grow by less than half that, according to the Petroleum Industry Research Foundation.

For these reasons, Larry Goldstein, president of the Petroleum Industry Research Foundation, a New York-based group, said that the release of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve and increased gasoline imports from abroad won’t fundamentally address the situation. “How could this not be a major problem for an indefinite period of time?” he said. Mr. Goldstein said he expects sustained high gasoline prices as demand exceeds supply. “It’s powerful and it’s ugly,” he said. “But it’s true.”

–Chip Cummins and Steve LeVine contributed to this article.

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
I like to blame O.P.E.C. They regulate production to manipulate the supply. The only thing we could realy do is decrease demand, which woud probably cause an even greater leap in prices to compensate for the lack of use. Looks like a loose/loose to me.
[/quote]

Everyone likes an easy target. Please name five countries in OPEC without looking online. Please tell me the largest exporter of petroleum products to the US without going to Google. They are regulating supply. A stable energy supply is paramount to global security. Imagine a world where OPEC wasn’t around to help stabilize prices. And before you ask where they are today, now you can look online. The OPEC consortium is pumping full out, many producers are actually overpumping their existing wells. This can cause irreparable damage to their reserves, but they are doing it anyway.

You were partially right in your answer: ?The only thing we could really do is decrease demand?. If you want to change prices, like I said above, change supply or demand. Buy a smaller car, drive less and walk more, bicycle to work, keep your car repair up, or a myriad of other things that you can do to reduce this cost to you. But most people don?t want to actually do anything to effect change, they just want to blame someone else and have them take care of it for them. Sound familiar? This is exactly what we are always complaining about on this site regarding lazy people who don?t want to effect a change in their physical existence. They just want a pill, they want to blame the fast food companies, and they say that there is not enough time in the day to exercise. Don?t be one of these guys.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Much of the price of crude is driven by perception and anticipation.

The perception is that a supply could be interupted due to the war or terrorism. The anticipation is that China and India will use more oil as their economies grow. Both are not really happening yet but the market has already priced it.

Additional refining capacity will drive the price down. The Saudi’s will pump more and eventually the Venezualan and Iraqi problems will get worked out. These current prices are a spike. Oil will settle around $30-40 barrel long term.[/quote]

Kudos, but I can’t predict the long term price of oil. If I could I would be retired already.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I hate the soaring gas prices as well. But locally, there is a boom of sorts in the oil exploration business.

landowners are leasing their land in droves, and wells are going up everywhere. As long as fuel prices remain high, our local economies will be booming. And that is something that this area has needed for 25 years.[/quote]

Exactly. Increase prices, and people will look to economically befifit from increasing supply to capture these high prices.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
It’s not “simple supply and demand”. There’s a cartel involved. Ever heard of OPEC? Supply is affected every time these guys meet. They set prices.

As far as these fuel prices leading to a recession, they’ve been on a steep upward trend for over a year, and our economy is in very good shape. As long as oil stays in the 35-45 dollar range pump prices will stablize, and There will still be an incintive for domestic exploration.[/quote]

Isn’t every other “manufacturer” in the world allowed to set supply on their product? Doesn’t the company you work for make these decisions daily? Being that OPEC only controls 40% of worldwide reserves, if they lowered supply, couldn’t the other 60% capitalize on this, and the resulting higher prices? Doesn’t every country in OPEC consistently overproduce above and beyond their quotas to capture higher prices? If “the arabs”, as people love to call them, were to tell us that we had to sell them our domestic timber at a reduced rate because they didn’t have any, how many people on this message board would wrap themselves in an American flag and cry bloody murder? If we want THEIR natural resources, we have to pay them. If they want OURS, they have to pay us.

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
rainjack wrote:
It’s not “simple supply and demand”. There’s a cartel involved. Ever heard of OPEC? Supply is affected every time these guys meet. They set prices.

As far as these fuel prices leading to a recession, they’ve been on a steep upward trend for over a year, and our economy is in very good shape. As long as oil stays in the 35-45 dollar range pump prices will stablize, and There will still be an incintive for domestic exploration.

yeah and dont you know that your president is their best buddy? it really is just a matter of supply, demand and wanning natural resources… . the reason fuel is costing more is because its getting more expensive to find and get out of the ground… . the US is tapped out and most other places are declining allready…

Saudi Arabia is one of the only major exporters that you have left and it seems like they cant pump any more than they are allready doing… . theyve said they will up production several times this year and they have not met those promises because they cant. …[/quote]

It is getting more expensive to get out of the ground. Higher prices allow larger amounts of capital investment and exploration for reserves. It takes approximately 10 years and hundreds of millions of dollars for that drop of oil to make it to your car from the time they think about exploring for it.

The US is not ?tapped out?. We have tapped the cheap and easy reserves, but now we are tapping the more expensive ones. Higher prices allow us to do this. Otherwise, they would stay in the ground. No one works for free.

All OPEC countries are major exporters. What you meant to say was ?Saudi Arabia is the only country left with any reserve capacity to produce?. Even that is questionable, as even they are overproducing and causing significant damage to their fields. Why isn?t anyone on here suggesting that mileage standards on autos be increase to 50 miles to the gallon, and we outlaw SUV?s? Just curious.

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Gl;itch.e wrote:
rainjack wrote:
It’s not “simple supply and demand”. There’s a cartel involved. Ever heard of OPEC? Supply is affected every time these guys meet. They set prices.

As far as these fuel prices leading to a recession, they’ve been on a steep upward trend for over a year, and our economy is in very good shape. As long as oil stays in the 35-45 dollar range pump prices will stablize, and There will still be an incintive for domestic exploration.

yeah and dont you know that your president is their best buddy? it really is just a matter of supply, demand and wanning natural resources… . the reason fuel is costing more is because its getting more expensive to find and get out of the ground… . the US is tapped out and most other places are declining allready…

Saudi Arabia is one of the only major exporters that you have left and it seems like they cant pump any more than they are allready doing… . theyve said they will up production several times this year and they have not met those promises because they cant. …

This is NOT simple supply demand economics. I was discussing this on another thread earlier and hedo hit it on the head here. This is all a speculative spike in price. Demand did not increase by almost 100% in the past 18 months. Yes there are more outside forces, but the dramatic increase is purely speculative. I don’t know that gas will settle as low as hedo predicted, that would be nice, but the price will come down.

It would, however, be nice if someone would look into increasing capacity of refineries. And no, the U.S. and everyone else but the Saudies are not running out of oil. There exists enough known oil supplies to last us 200+ years–even at expected consumption rates. There exists huge untapped reserves right to our North, and I bet vroom is sitting on them waiting to turn a tidy penny when the rush for northern oil begins.

I do think that this should be looked at as a great gouging though by those in the petro field. That is the biggest crime of this whole scenario. This could be lessened, but too much money is being made by the few powers in the industry [/quote]

Demand does not have to increase 100% to have a 100% increase in prices. It is not even close to linear. I agree on increasing refining capacity in the US. Please, we are in desperate need of it.

We do have huge reserves available, the problem is getting to them, and refining them in a predictable and economically viable manner. Billions of dollars of infrastructure does not grow overnight. Just because you have a pantry full of food, doesn?t mean you will grow. Many things have to take place in the right way over a long period of time for this to happen.

What about when the petro companies are losing billions of dollars because they are selling at losses? Yes, this happens all of the time. Are you going to be there then? And this is not gouging. It is a supply issue. Prices today are the same as in the 80?s adjusted for inflation. The number just seems bigger because of inflation. The cost of just about everything you buy increases over time due to inflation.

These price increase force those less willing to pay out of the market leaving those whose economic use is higher to purchase the commodity. There is not enough gas right now, we need this restriction in use to bring demand in line with supply. I am personally driving less and smarter because of the high prices, and that is leaving more gas available for other who truly need it.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Glitch,

“Saudi Arabia is one of the only major exporters that you have left and it seems like they cant pump any more than they are allready doing.”

You forgot about Canada and Mexico, our two largest energy trading partners.

And, when the Canadian oil sands get moving, that will increase North American supply.[/quote]

Actually Venezuella is the largest exporter of petroleum products to the US. And the Canadian oil sands are moving, but they are increasing capital expenditure continuously into these projects because high prices justify this. If not for high prices they would stay in the ground. Unfortunately, these projects take many years and billions of dollars to increase capacity.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Opec Has only found real strength lately. There was times in the 90’s when Light Sweet Crude was going for 8 bucks a barrel. This was because the cartel was fractured by greed.

Now that they are all on the same page - we are paying the price for it.

I realize that the price gouging is a result of speculatory moves, but OPEC is not helping matters by bottlenecking production. [/quote]

We are not paying the price for it. Prices are not that high when you factor in inflation. Am I the only one that sees a difference between today’s dollar and one of 20 years ago? This is not price gouging. Supply is less then demand. Prices need to increase to force out marginal consumers. Econ 101.

And OPEc is not bottleknecking production. As I stated above, most countries in OPEC are overproducing their quotas, and their production capacities. We should be more concerned that this overproduction doesn’t damage the fields and leave us with less production tomorrow.

[quote]chrisp23 wrote:
There are so many misconceptions on this thread I do not even know where to start addressing them. I have spent the better part of my adult career in the energy industry, specifically refining, refined products, storage and trading. It never ceases to amaze me how little people know about industries other than the one they work in, yet this does not stop them from stating as fact anything that they may have heard on news channels.

(see ?Don?t Kill the Rat? posted by TC today. http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=743955 )

Think of it this way, the energy industry is one of the most complex and globally effected commodity industries in the world, yet people with no experience preach what needs to be done to fix it and are constantly pointing the finger at “evil” oil companies and OPEC as the villains.

This is tantamount to a newbie posting bodybuilding advice on this site, and then saying things like, ?deadlifts are bad for your back?, ?squats are bad for your knees?, and "you should isolate the bicep with concentration curls in the squat rack to maximize growth?. What would your response be to this person? Please stop stating fact and solutions to an industry if you have very little experience with it outside of filling your gas tank. Now get back to that isolation work.[/quote]

So, enlighten everyone with your knowledge oh wise one…we’re all screwed including you…

MB

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
pitbull

what could bring gas pricies down would be the American auto industry at least attempting to look like they are trying to put measures in place that would save gas or increase mileage. This would put back pressure on the OPEC community to drop prices to possibly lessen the immediate need for new technology.

As long as the American consumer appears to be ok with price aka buying Hummers and 8mpg suv’s while gas prices hold at 2.50 per gallon—what incentive isa there to drop the price?
[/quote]

If the auto industry ?attempted? to save gas or increase mileage, consumers would then complain about the resulting cost increase. You didn?t think we could do this for free did you? And before someone says the auto industry is in cahoots with the oil industry, lets think about this. The popularity of hybrid cars tells us that if the car companies had a cheap and easy way to increase mileage they would because they would sell more cars. They can?t keep up with production of hybrids. (Hybrids are, by the way, my favorite form of increasing vehicle mileage)

And this would not put pressure on OPEC to reduce prices. OPEC doesn?t set prices. They just control their own production. Something every American would say is our God given right if another country questioned our production of natural resources. I don?t know where people get these ideas. There is no incentive to drop prices. Prices are set by the market. Simple supply and demand.

[quote]Ahdanielsan wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Ahdanielsan wrote:
Ummmm…I wouldn’t complain too much. Judging by your responses, I reckon you’d all have conniption fits if you saw the price we have to pay for gas/petrol in the UK :slight_smile:

Dan

Isn’t the high prices in the UK due to extreme taxes and regulations by your government?

Yup, and the prices are also kept high so that other companies - that don’t actually source the oil, like Esso does - can compete on a level playing field. Either way, it’s the consumer that loses out.

The government’s happy with the current price-fixing situation as it fills the pockets of the big companies, and it also fits in with their plans to get people to stop driving as much.

Dan

[/quote]

I don?t even know what to do with the first sentence. I have no idea what you are saying.

The difference in prices in the UK are due to taxes. Period. The consumer loses, as you call it, because the government feels that the benefits of taxing gas outweigh the costs to the consumer. This is also a very effective way to urge consumers to conserve petrol. This is a legislative decision. The UK has smaller cars, and the use more mass transit than the US, where gas prices are cheaper. If you have a problem with it, call you representative. Look at purchasing decisions in the US following periods of especially high and low gas prices. Take a guess as to which cars sell better during both periods.

Explain to me how the government taxing gas excessively fills the pockets of the big companies? It doesn?t, it fills the coffers of the government. This is a blatant attack on big companies to blame them for something you do not understand. Read TC?s ?Don?t Kill the Rat? article from 9/2/2005.

[quote]masterblaster wrote:
chrisp23 wrote:
There are so many misconceptions on this thread I do not even know where to start addressing them. I have spent the better part of my adult career in the energy industry, specifically refining, refined products, storage and trading. It never ceases to amaze me how little people know about industries other than the one they work in, yet this does not stop them from stating as fact anything that they may have heard on news channels.

(see ?Don?t Kill the Rat? posted by TC today. http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=743955 )

Think of it this way, the energy industry is one of the most complex and globally effected commodity industries in the world, yet people with no experience preach what needs to be done to fix it and are constantly pointing the finger at “evil” oil companies and OPEC as the villains.

This is tantamount to a newbie posting bodybuilding advice on this site, and then saying things like, ?deadlifts are bad for your back?, ?squats are bad for your knees?, and "you should isolate the bicep with concentration curls in the squat rack to maximize growth?. What would your response be to this person? Please stop stating fact and solutions to an industry if you have very little experience with it outside of filling your gas tank. Now get back to that isolation work.

So, enlighten everyone with your knowledge oh wise one…we’re all screwed including you…

MB[/quote]

You asked for it…

And we are not screwed. Prices are at the same level as the 80’s, inflation adjusted. Get a grip. You sound like a guy saying squats are too hard. Sometimes prices are high, sometimes they are low. Sometimes exercises are hard, sometimes you love doing them.

Oil is a commodity. Price fluctuation is what commodities do. In time prices will level out and someone undeserving will take the credit for it, and people will find something else to complain about.

I am curious as to why there hasn’t been more talk about moving to biodiesel or higher ethanol fuel sources. The infastructure is already there, and the cost and technology isn’t outside of our present day oil based economy.

chrisp23 - Thank you for injecting some reason and sanity into what had become a ridiculous thread.

chrisp23

Can you give any evidence that the price of oil is ever going to go down? From what I have read, Saudi Arabia is already pumping at max capacity, and whatever new deposits are available are difficult to get to (Canadian oil sands) or are in unstable regions. In addition to that, India and China’s economy are growing to the point that they are consuming a much larger portion of the world’s oil than they ever did in the past.

I generally agree with what you are saying in that oil prices aren’t astronomical, but I think given the other extenuating factors, it would be well advised to find another source of energy.

Who ever said what goes up must come down wasn’t referring to gas prices. Did anyone hear the president speak a few days ago after the aftermath of hurricane Katrina? He talked about gas prices. He said to help conserve by filling up only for only what you need, don’t fill up all the way.
What a dumb numb nut president we have. Bring back Clinton!Play on player!