Gabby Reece on Being Submissive

Off Topic
61

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I know plenty of couples who do not fall into the dominant male/submissive female roles. Some have successful relationships. Some don’t. Just like everyone else.

I have no issue with Gabby or any other female wanting to be submissive or whatever she wants. It’s not my business or my choice to make for someone else. I do take issue with a statement that all women or all men need to be a certain way. It’s not reality and assumes that we all want the same thing. Which we clearly don’t. And what a boring world it would be if we all wanted the same thing.
[/quote]

Well said!

There are all kinds. And in my circles that’s not all that controversial. [/quote]

That’s nice. Emily has a different experience. I have a different experience. Apparently Gabby Reece has a different experience. Go reread your responses to Emily. You shut her down. There was no acknowledgement that her experiences might be as valid as your own. And you told me that I might want to go talk about this somewhere else, as if I didn’t understand that Tnation is a male dominated website. You skipped over my discussion and focused on the last line of my post, which you misinterpreted.

EDIT: I think this proves that this topic is not controversial. Mad respect for your lifting Deb and Snap.

63

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I know plenty of couples who do not fall into the dominant male/submissive female roles. Some have successful relationships. Some don’t. Just like everyone else.

I have no issue with Gabby or any other female wanting to be submissive or whatever she wants. It’s not my business or my choice to make for someone else. I do take issue with a statement that all women or all men need to be a certain way. It’s not reality and assumes that we all want the same thing. Which we clearly don’t. And what a boring world it would be if we all wanted the same thing.
[/quote]

Well said!

There are all kinds. And in my circles that’s not all that controversial. [/quote]

That’s nice. Emily has a different experience. I have a different experience. Apparently Gabby Reece has a different experience. Go reread your responses to Emily. You shut her down. There was no acknowledgement that her experiences might be as valid as your own. And you told me that I might want to go talk about this somewhere else, as if I didn’t understand that Tnation is a male dominated website. You skipped over my discussion and focused on the last line of my post, which you misinterpreted.

EDIT: I think this proves that this topic is not controversial. Mad respect for your lifting Deb and Snap.
[/quote]

I fail to see how I could shut Emily down. She is a grown woman and I have confidence she will tell me to get lost if it’s needed. And that probably won’t change my approach but I won’t be shutting anyone down. Plus this is T-Nation and I’m not going to start getting all pussy footed now because there are ladies present. Please don’t expect me to engage in discussion differently because I am a woman…

But I am not diverting from my original comments that this serves no purpose. Gender stereotyping is flawed. It’s destructive. It’s dated and it’s time to move beyond. It’s the very reason why you feel conflicted. Instead of debating how the stereotype could better reflect your experience why not question it’s existence to begin with? How is it your experience in life should have anything to say about mine? If you want to define femininity then you are also defining it for me as I would be if I were to question your decision to do anything that is possibly submissive. You are asking a bunch of right wing dudes if it’s ok for a woman to be submissive and and feminine. Well hmmm…

I do still question why a discussion about femininity would be suitable here. You can obviously have it wherever you want but the results are very predictable–basically a back and forth between Orion and whoever objects to him and then some of the usual comments about women need to be dominated but no, assertive women are hot. Not Hot. No, Hot…

Now I can see putting here for entertainments sake but to attempt to get any real understanding of the female experience, I don’t see where you’re going to get that here. Hence my question about why here. For the record I see nothing wrong with a topic for entertainments sake but I see you are taking it quite seriously so I don’t think that’s your intent.

65

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I know plenty of couples who do not fall into the dominant male/submissive female roles. Some have successful relationships. Some don’t. Just like everyone else.

I have no issue with Gabby or any other female wanting to be submissive or whatever she wants. It’s not my business or my choice to make for someone else. I do take issue with a statement that all women or all men need to be a certain way. It’s not reality and assumes that we all want the same thing. Which we clearly don’t. And what a boring world it would be if we all wanted the same thing.
[/quote]

Well said!

There are all kinds. And in my circles that’s not all that controversial. [/quote]

That’s nice. Emily has a different experience. I have a different experience. Apparently Gabby Reece has a different experience. Go reread your responses to Emily. You shut her down. There was no acknowledgement that her experiences might be as valid as your own. And you told me that I might want to go talk about this somewhere else, as if I didn’t understand that Tnation is a male dominated website. You skipped over my discussion and focused on the last line of my post, which you misinterpreted.

EDIT: I think this proves that this topic is not controversial. Mad respect for your lifting Deb and Snap.
[/quote]

I fail to see how I could shut Emily down. She is a grown woman and I have confidence she will tell me to get lost if it’s needed. And that probably won’t change my approach but I won’t be shutting anyone down. Plus this is T-Nation and I’m not going to start getting all pussy footed now because there are ladies present. Please don’t expect me to engage in discussion differently because I am a woman…

But I am not diverting from my original comments that this serves no purpose. Gender stereotyping is flawed. It’s destructive. It’s dated and it’s time to move beyond. It’s the very reason why you feel conflicted. Instead of debating how the stereotype could better reflect your experience why not question it’s existence to begin with? How is it your experience in life should have anything to say about mine? If you want to define femininity then you are also defining it for me as I would be if I were to question your decision to do anything that is possibly submissive. You are asking a bunch of right wing dudes if it’s ok for a woman to be submissive and and feminine. Well hmmm…

I do still question why a discussion about femininity would be suitable here. You can obviously have it wherever you want but the results are very predictable–basically a back and forth between Orion and whoever objects to him and then some of the usual comments about women need to be dominated but no, assertive women are hot. Not Hot. No, Hot…

Now I can see putting here for entertainments sake but to attempt to get any real understanding of the female experience, I don’t see where you’re going to get that here. Hence my question about why here. For the record I see nothing wrong with a topic for entertainments sake but I see you are taking it quite seriously so I don’t think that’s your intent.

[/quote]

I would say that “why here” is because groups of women are often dismissive (again I mention the taboo) whereas men may be more curious and interested in exploring the dynamic from the other side. Almost all of my close relationships are with other women. The exceptions are my family, my ex-husband (he may count as family) and now my boyfriend. My work is very feminist in its orientation, which I suspect is true of PP’s as well. What on earth is wrong with exploring it here? Here is where I am most anonymous, which makes it the very best place to talk about my darkest secrets, which include that I like it when my man makes low, growly talk to me.

Why does this offend you so? How is it stereotyping to say that I like thus and such, does anyone else? That something is cliched does not make it false.

Besides, this is where we post, at least to the extent we do. Why wouldn’t it go here?

66

[quote]pushharder wrote:
PP, prepare to be “Reeced.”

The diehards aren’t even going to let a moderate like Em step up to the plate without pecking their eyes out. The likes of you are really going to get hammered.

You’re committing an Intolerable Sin.[/quote]

I already rolled over, Push. I think it might be my biology. I don’t have a lot of fight in me. :slight_smile:

Orion - I have to say that I often find your posts really interesting, and when we discuss a topic like this which can go a thousand different ways, and by it’s nature is prone to subjectivity - people bringing their own anecdotes and experiences to the table - you are usually the only person who will bring in some facts, and statistics. I appreciate it. I don’t always agree with you, but I’m sometimes astonished at how often I do. That’s been one of the more interesting things about my Tn experience.

67

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I know plenty of couples who do not fall into the dominant male/submissive female roles. Some have successful relationships. Some don’t. Just like everyone else.

I have no issue with Gabby or any other female wanting to be submissive or whatever she wants. It’s not my business or my choice to make for someone else. I do take issue with a statement that all women or all men need to be a certain way. It’s not reality and assumes that we all want the same thing. Which we clearly don’t. And what a boring world it would be if we all wanted the same thing.
[/quote]

Well said!

There are all kinds. And in my circles that’s not all that controversial. [/quote]

That’s nice. Emily has a different experience. I have a different experience. Apparently Gabby Reece has a different experience. Go reread your responses to Emily. You shut her down. There was no acknowledgement that her experiences might be as valid as your own. And you told me that I might want to go talk about this somewhere else, as if I didn’t understand that Tnation is a male dominated website. You skipped over my discussion and focused on the last line of my post, which you misinterpreted.

EDIT: I think this proves that this topic is not controversial. Mad respect for your lifting Deb and Snap.
[/quote]

I fail to see how I could shut Emily down. She is a grown woman and I have confidence she will tell me to get lost if it’s needed. And that probably won’t change my approach but I won’t be shutting anyone down. Plus this is T-Nation and I’m not going to start getting all pussy footed now because there are ladies present. Please don’t expect me to engage in discussion differently because I am a woman…

But I am not diverting from my original comments that this serves no purpose. Gender stereotyping is flawed. It’s destructive. It’s dated and it’s time to move beyond. It’s the very reason why you feel conflicted. Instead of debating how the stereotype could better reflect your experience why not question it’s existence to begin with? How is it your experience in life should have anything to say about mine? If you want to define femininity then you are also defining it for me as I would be if I were to question your decision to do anything that is possibly submissive. You are asking a bunch of right wing dudes if it’s ok for a woman to be submissive and and feminine. Well hmmm…

I do still question why a discussion about femininity would be suitable here. You can obviously have it wherever you want but the results are very predictable–basically a back and forth between Orion and whoever objects to him and then some of the usual comments about women need to be dominated but no, assertive women are hot. Not Hot. No, Hot…

Now I can see putting here for entertainments sake but to attempt to get any real understanding of the female experience, I don’t see where you’re going to get that here. Hence my question about why here. For the record I see nothing wrong with a topic for entertainments sake but I see you are taking it quite seriously so I don’t think that’s your intent.

[/quote]

I would say that “why here” is because groups of women are often dismissive (again I mention the taboo) whereas men may be more curious and interested in exploring the dynamic from the other side. Almost all of my close relationships are with other women. The exceptions are my family, my ex-husband (he may count as family) and now my boyfriend. My work is very feminist in its orientation, which I suspect is true of PP’s as well. What on earth is wrong with exploring it here? Here is where I am most anonymous, which makes it the very best place to talk about my darkest secrets, which include that I like it when my man makes low, growly talk to me.

Why does this offend you so? How is it stereotyping to say that I like thus and such, does anyone else? That something is cliched does not make it false.

Besides, this is where we post, at least to the extent we do. Why wouldn’t it go here?

[/quote]

I wouldn’t say I’m offended. But I am taking exception to the statements I quoted earlier from the OP. trying to say this is just one woman talking about what works for her and we’re all supportive and honky dory with all possibilities is simply not true. Especially if we’re going to start making claims of biological determinism, then I’m going to chime in and say hold on, you don’t know that and don’t define woman or femininity or what have you for me.

I think if the thread that we were posting on was ‘Hey this is how I live and hey it works for me’ I don’t really see there would be much to say, until of course the chorus of ‘dammit that’s how all women should be!’ starts up, which I know would happen here too lol.

But I don’t actually object to the topic being here so much as I wonder why you would have it here, in the GAL forum where we aren’t exactly having 'serial discussions about anything and has a strong misogynist streak and we have a fondness for funny GIFs and ProfX memes.

I shouldn’t really say we in that last paragraph because I’m not actually here all that much anymore but you get the idea. My comments in this thread should be as appropriate as 10 pages of lolcats and lolfatties :slight_smile:

68

I just scanned the thread real quick, but I didn’t see the words “boobies” or “vagina”.

Should I go back and read more carefully?

69

[quote]debraD wrote:
Especially if we’re going to start making claims of biological determinism, then I’m going to chime in and say hold on, you don’t know that and don’t define woman or femininity or what have you for me.
[/quote]
Welcome to the stag party! It’s Misogyny Monday.

Why do you say it couldn’t be biological? Doesn’t it make sense that men would be largely more biologically predisposed to dominance? I almost don’t see how you could argue the opposite.

You don’t have to perceive this negatively though. That is a choice. There are simply differences. Any traits deemed superior or inferior are a matter of opinion. What I don’t feel like is opinion are the biological tendencies toward the traits themselves.

There. I think that was a nice way to say that instead of saying “You will never be as dominant or aggresive as I am.” :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

72

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
Especially if we’re going to start making claims of biological determinism, then I’m going to chime in and say hold on, you don’t know that and don’t define woman or femininity or what have you for me.
[/quote]
Welcome to the stag party! It’s Misogyny Monday.

Why do you say it couldn’t be biological? Doesn’t it make sense that men would be largely more biologically predisposed to dominance? I almost don’t see how you could argue the opposite.

You don’t have to perceive this negatively though. That is a choice. There are simply differences. Any traits deemed superior or inferior are a matter of opinion. What I don’t feel like is opinion are the biological tendencies toward the traits themselves.

There. I think that was a nice way to say that instead of saying “You will never be as dominant or aggresive as I am.” ;P[/quote]

I didn’t say it couldn’t be biological but that no one can say definitively that it is. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t see that it has to be biological either. It just doesn’t match my experience from either introspection or from what I’ve seen around me in family circles, and a variety of different social circles. It only really aligns with my viewing experience in mass media.

I don’t know why it would need to be biological other than for some people are invested in it’s ‘rightness’ to be a certain way. If it’s not biological, it does not in any way dismiss how people are or diminish it. If it’s a social construct you can be any way that society, experience and what not tells you to be. However if you are saying it is biological you are making a very discrete claim that people of a certain sex WILL have a fixed set of behaviors.

If it is biological, then what is the deal with women like me? I’m pretty dominant and I see myself as more dominant than most men I encounter.

73

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
Especially if we’re going to start making claims of biological determinism, then I’m going to chime in and say hold on, you don’t know that and don’t define woman or femininity or what have you for me.
[/quote]
Welcome to the stag party! It’s Misogyny Monday.

Why do you say it couldn’t be biological? Doesn’t it make sense that men would be largely more biologically predisposed to dominance? I almost don’t see how you could argue the opposite.

You don’t have to perceive this negatively though. That is a choice. There are simply differences. Any traits deemed superior or inferior are a matter of opinion. What I don’t feel like is opinion are the biological tendencies toward the traits themselves.

There. I think that was a nice way to say that instead of saying “You will never be as dominant or aggresive as I am.” ;P[/quote]

I didn’t say it couldn’t be biological but that no one can say definitively that it is. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t see that it has to be biological either. It just doesn’t match my experience from either introspection or from what I’ve seen around me in family circles, and a variety of different social circles. It only really aligns with my viewing experience in mass media.

I don’t know why it would need to be biological other than for some people are invested in it’s ‘rightness’ to be a certain way. If it’s not biological, it does not in any way dismiss how people are or diminish it. If it’s a social construct you can be any way that society, experience and what not tells you to be. However if you are saying it is biological you are making a very discrete claim that people of a certain sex WILL have a fixed set of behaviors.

If it is biological, then what is the deal with women like me? I’m pretty dominant and I see myself as more dominant than most men I encounter.[/quote]

Do people act a certain way because of their biology? Yes or no?

Do you know about Occam’s Razor? It’s not something men use to shave their square, manly, stubbly jaws.

74

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I know plenty of couples who do not fall into the dominant male/submissive female roles. Some have successful relationships. Some don’t. Just like everyone else.
[/quote]

How do you know they don’t? I’m sure you only see small aspects of their relationship.

From a woman’s perspective, I think sex is a microcosm that illustrates the relationship between man and woman perfectly. Most women like to do a variety of things during sex. Some of the things would be seen as “dominant” and some as “submissive”. Women like to be on top occasionally, some might even like to sit on a guys face from time to time, but, all heterosexual women, including the ones on this site, no matter how much they like to do some dominant activities, are most turned on and sexually satisfied when their man takes charge and ravages them. This is an undeniable fact of nature.

(It’s also an undeniable fact of nature how much woman hate it when men tell them how they REALLY are. Especially if it’s true.)

This is exactly how it is in the ret of the relationship too. The woman may take the lead from time to time and in certain areas, but she’s going to be most content and satisfied if the man is ultimately the boss.

I’d like to add that their are couples out there where the woman is ultimately the boss and they are perfectly happy and have long healthy relationships. Being happy and having a long healthy relationship is not the pinnacle of contentment though.

Out.

75

[quote]debraD wrote:

If it is biological, then what is the deal with women like me? I’m pretty dominant and I see myself as more dominant than most men I encounter.[/quote]

I highly doubt you’re more dominant than the one you’re with.

76

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Women think they want to be dominant. American women in particular (generally speaking) have this massive insecurity around it. However, the guys that turn them on are, to a man, the type who will take charge, give directions, lead, protect, and provide for them. If a woman ever finds herself in a relationship where she becomes the dominant one, she will find herself turned off by her submissive mate. And one partner is ALWAYS submissive. There is no such thing as equality. None. [/quote]

^^

as Push alluded to earlier, there’s gold right here.

in fact, one might rightly wonder whether ‘healthiest relationship’ is even possible without this

77

[quote]on edge wrote:

(It’s also an undeniable fact of nature how much woman hate it when men tell them how they REALLY are. Especially if it’s true.)

[/quote]

Yup.

78

[quote]aeyogi wrote:
I like strong women.

I have a strong personality, and I want a partner who is my equal.

I do not respect weak or submissive personalities, and I could not have a lasting relationship with someone with whom I do not deeply respect.[/quote]

I don’t think you really understand what being a dominant woman means. You appear to be saying you want someone who bucks you at every crossroads, digs in her heals, and muleheadedly refuses to budge until she gets her way?

If any company was run that way it would cease to exist in a very short amount of time.

Human social groups require leaders. In almost every imaginable social combination, there ends up being ONE individual whom others look to for guidance and protection. True equal partnerships are unicorns. Pretty awesome to imagine, but the stuff of pure fantasy.

And, as chillain mentioned earlier, I doubt there are many, if any sexually healthy relationships with a dominant female.

Again, many western, especially American women, have this massive insecurity with their role. They appear to think there is something negative about the essential role of the female in human society. That’s like the lungs being jealous of the heart. They are both necessary. Without either one, the whole body dies.

79

[quote]bpick86 wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. A woman can be submissive and still have a strong personality. And in every relationship there is a submissive partner. When you disagree on something (can be anything from disciplining kids to making a large purchase), who gets to have the final say? My wife will have her opinion on everything and let me know what it is but I almost always decide the way we will go. And I don’t always choose my way. Sometimes I have to be aware enough to know that she is right and her way was best but even still I decided what the final decision would ultimately be.

This is not a you are my wife, you have to do what I say type thing. This is a we both communicate, but she will look to me to make the final decision because I am the man. I have never dominated my wife or ordered her to do anything, it is just the roles we naturally assumed. I think there is definitely something primal there, because I am stronger and more capable physically therefore I have the role of dominance because I am the protector and provider. Also outside of our marriage every one is equal. My boss is female and I have the same level of respect for her that I would for a male boss. And if any man thought that they were going to order my wife around I would probably have to pull her off of them. [/quote]

Very good stuff from bpick. Watch out, though, you’re about to get branded like I did a while back when I made a similar statement. I can already hear the clatter of pitchforks and smell the oily kerosene rags of the torches being lit.

*edit: autocorrect typo

80

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
EyeDentist - My thoughts on the subject? You first. I promise not to flame you too badly. To be honest, her thoughts resonated with me. I think she’s right, although I admit the word submissive makes me a little bit defensive. :slight_smile: I don’t believe she’s supporting anything retrograde in terms of the women’s movement. She’s talking about what works for her and her husband. I believe the majority of women prefer to a man who is dominant in terms of being strong, and being able to protect and provide. There may be a multitude of permutations as to how this gets applied in any given relationship, division of labor, etc…but I think that principle is true and as someone else pointed out, it’s fairly primal.

bpick - About the scripture, I think the “love his wife as himself” part is key. That implies a kindness, and Christlike love there. If you don’t have a good man, there is always the chance that there will be some tyranny. Most of us have seen what that looks like. As they say, “Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

Orion - I was hoping you’d chime in. I never gave Testosterone any thought at all until I started lifting. In many ways we ARE our hormones. And I like the idea of “deference” to each other, meaning mutual respect. I’d agree that because men and women are so different, there isn’t going to be true equality but in a really good relationship they are two complementary parts that together make up a whole.

Mrs. Jewbacca - You had me at “not remotely a doormat.”

Funny story - When I was in graduate school, I had to administer lots and lots of intelligence tests for practice. I was dating my husband at the time, and so I talked him to taking a couple of them for me. Yeah. Well, he’s smarter than me. I knew that before I tested him, but now I had proof! So, I married someone who is not only bigger, stronger, but he’s even smarter. How many of you would choose to do that? Apparently I didn’t have a thing with him being more dominant, or I guess I did, depending on how you look at it!

[/quote]

You know what I notice about you and Emily, PP? You never seem angry or defensive, and the both of you are always a pleasure to talk to.

Funny how that works.