This thread is just moving too fast for me to keep up.
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Interesting that of the women who have sounded off on this, we seem more conflicted than the men. I think that’s one of the reasons why it’s worthwhile to this conversation.
[/quote]
If that’s the case I do find the forum of choice for the conversation interesting. Wouldn’t a more gender neutral or female oriented forum be more productive for the conversation about women’s roles? All I can see that you will get from the men here are statements about what they find attractive and desirable which do little to add insight into the subject.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
There are successful heterosexual couples with a dominant female/submissive male.[/quote]
Very, very, few.
No, not a single one. [/quote]
And you know this and are qualified to speak based on your extensive history of successful relationship(s)…?
[/quote]
Define succesful…
I always learn a lot…
Anyhow, if you want to believe, or want to trick yourself into believing that truly equal relationships are possible…
How much experience could I need to know that that this is bullshit?
Anyhow, women hate the pseudo egalitarian nonsense they are bound to have to put up with to get along with with other women, so dont tell me that a short “fuck, no” does not feel good.
Only a little. [/quote]
I believe myself to be fairly submissive by nature and my boyfriend is definitely not, but my relationship is much more egalitarian than not. We both earn, we both make decisions, and we both opine on everything under the sun. He can tell me “fuck no” about something that is his decision alone, but it would not go well if he said “fuck no” to something I felt was a shared decision.
That has nothing to do with how I define my femininity, submissiveness, receptiveness, whatever. There are all sorts of double standards in my relationship, but that doesn’t threaten his masculinity or my femininity because we’re flexible, dynamic people.
[/quote]
No, it is as it should be, he leads, you follow, he listens to your tells.
Congratulations, I envy you.
[quote]debraD wrote:
There are all kinds. And in my circles that’s not all that controversial. [/quote]
Nor in my circles.
I went from being a career woman earning roughly the same as my husband to being a full-time mom with no income. Never did I feel backlash from family, friends, or ex-coworkers for my choice to step into a very traditional role that I thought was the right choice for me at that time in my life.
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Interesting that of the women who have sounded off on this, we seem more conflicted than the men. I think that’s one of the reasons why it’s worthwhile to this conversation.
[/quote]
If that’s the case I do find the forum of choice for the conversation interesting. Wouldn’t a more gender neutral or female oriented forum be more productive for the conversation about women’s roles? All I can see that you will get from the men here are statements about what they find attractive and desirable which do little to add insight into the subject.[/quote]
Yup,
Darling,
anyone,
and I mean ANYONE,
who invests one cent into what men find attractive or desirable wastes time when it comes to how to have a healthy relationship with a man.
You are shitting me, right !?!
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Interesting that of the women who have sounded off on this, we seem more conflicted than the men. I think that’s one of the reasons why it’s worthwhile to this conversation.
[/quote]
If that’s the case I do find the forum of choice for the conversation interesting. Wouldn’t a more gender neutral or female oriented forum be more productive for the conversation about women’s roles? All I can see that you will get from the men here are statements about what they find attractive and desirable which do little to add insight into the subject.[/quote]
Yup,
Darling,
anyone,
and I mean ANYONE,
who invests one cent into what men find attractive or desirable wastes time when it comes to how to have a healthy relationship with a man.
You are shitting me, right !?!
[/quote]
lol yes that’s exactly what I was saying …
But if you would think a conversation about a woman’s gender identity should revolve around what randos on the internet think is attractive, then you are a simpleton.
Edit: you don’t honestly think you speak for all of the group called men do you?
^Also, that a woman should be asking men what they find attractive well is as foolish as asking women what they find attractive, don’t you think?
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Interesting that of the women who have sounded off on this, we seem more conflicted than the men. I think that’s one of the reasons why it’s worthwhile to this conversation.
[/quote]
If that’s the case I do find the forum of choice for the conversation interesting. Wouldn’t a more gender neutral or female oriented forum be more productive for the conversation about women’s roles? All I can see that you will get from the men here are statements about what they find attractive and desirable which do little to add insight into the subject.[/quote]
Yup,
Darling,
anyone,
and I mean ANYONE,
who invests one cent into what men find attractive or desirable wastes time when it comes to how to have a healthy relationship with a man.
You are shitting me, right !?!
[/quote]
lol yes that’s exactly what I was saying …
But if you would think a conversation about a woman’s gender identity should revolve around what randos on the internet think is attractive, then you are a simpleton.
Edit: you don’t honestly think you speak for all of the group called men do you?
[/quote]
No.
But I speak.
My voice is what you hear.
You can have imaginary voices in your head that totally side with you instead of me, but, by the power invested in me by Graysk., … the United Stat…, my balls, I am closer to the male experience than you are.
And if you think you can define a feminine ideal, that is in no way connected to the masculine , you are just rubbing one off mentally.
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of this even is. It should be obvious to any one over the age of 15 that there men and women of all varieties and that we all manage to get laid and have relationships, successful and unsuccessful regardless of our gender stereotype fulfillment except for those who are just too fucked up to fit into society.
Other than wanting to sell books I can’t understand the need to tell other women, many enjoying successful relationships, how to behave.
And as to the biological question–if it were ‘natural’ and hard wired for us to be a certain way, we would just be it and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Anyhow I look pretty feminine, but I can’t say I act it and I’ve never had any problems finding or ‘holding on’ to a man.
[/quote]
I think it is an important conversation. There’s a lot of confusion about gender roles and what’s acceptable to say and what’s not. It’s been fairly taboo for some time now, at least in my circles, to admit to any sort of traditional gender role desire.
I think it’s also allowable to have a conversation about what, to different people, constitutes acceptable levels of submissiveness and what begins to threaten one’s autonomy or public sphere persona. I agree with Gabby that cherished > respect, but I need both. How does one strike a balance?
Just because it is not a matter of interest to you does not mean it’s not a matter of interest. I don’t get that it’s a lecture for women who do things differently, from what I can tell it’s a message to others who may be struggling with similar issues.
[/quote]
Bah it’s the same old shit over and over again with a segment of the population that does not have the capacity to understand or represent the rest of society.
I don’t think there is all that much confusion in reality. I don’t see it outside of this forum.
Talk about it if you want but I’m going to feel feel free to question the point as I see fit and I am questioning the point. Which I am not seeing it yet.
[/quote]
I’m simply disputing that it’s an attack on egalitarian or female-dominated relationships. “I like this” != “you must too.”
[/quote]
Oh I’m going to disagree there.
That certainly is dictating what a woman’s behavior should be. By tying her ideas on submissiveness to the loaded, vague and undefined, yet highly desirable condition of femininity she is say much more than ‘this is just what works for me thankyou’
So if I do not subscribe to her behaviors, am I no longer ‘feminine’? Oh boy! Surely it’s clear that defining femininity is indeed dictating how women who are to be perceived as womanly should be acting.[/quote]
Fair enough. The interview was more specific about this working for her in her life and that’s where I left off and started responding.
[quote]debraD wrote:
^ I mean can anyone even fucking define submissive or feminine?
You can try and we can have an argument about how right or wrong submissiveness is, only to come full circle to find that we don’t mean the same type of submissiveness or femininity or what have you but we we still disagree because well you are right wing macho guy and I’m left wing feminazi butch.
(generic you btw 
)[/quote]
That is an excellent point, most of the guys I know who think they are the dominant ones are being topped from the bottom big time. My one friend who has a very dominant wife actually has the most balanced relationship I have seen (and she is sexually submissive big time). In my own experience, the more a woman mirrors my actions in public (that is being neither too submissive or dominant), the more likely she is to want to be utterly dominated sexually, which happens to work for me. I also know many girls that act very submissive to both sexes and enjoy public humiliation only to turn out to want very - how do I put this delicately - vanilla sex.
Controlling is often misinterpreted as dominant and many guys who fancy themselves dominant are just deluded. Women are usually smart enough not to bring this point up to their face (ask their friends), lest they lose the invisible upper hand.
To sum this up nicely with a lyric:
“the more you get to know me, the less that you know
take a look around you, you’ll see it’s all a show”
[quote]debraD wrote:
^Also, that a woman should be asking men what they find attractive well is as foolish as asking women what they find attractive, don’t you think?[/quote]
Naaaahhhh…
There is no double standard, because we are not the same.
[quote]xxxx wrote:
That is an excellent point, most of the guys I know who think they are the dominant ones are being topped from the bottom big time.[/quote]
Truth
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Interesting that of the women who have sounded off on this, we seem more conflicted than the men. I think that’s one of the reasons why it’s worthwhile to this conversation.
[/quote]
If that’s the case I do find the forum of choice for the conversation interesting. Wouldn’t a more gender neutral or female oriented forum be more productive for the conversation about women’s roles? All I can see that you will get from the men here are statements about what they find attractive and desirable which do little to add insight into the subject.[/quote]
Yup,
Darling,
anyone,
and I mean ANYONE,
who invests one cent into what men find attractive or desirable wastes time when it comes to how to have a healthy relationship with a man.
You are shitting me, right !?!
[/quote]
lol yes that’s exactly what I was saying …
But if you would think a conversation about a woman’s gender identity should revolve around what randos on the internet think is attractive, then you are a simpleton.
Edit: you don’t honestly think you speak for all of the group called men do you?
[/quote]
No.
But I speak.
My voice is what you hear.
You can have imaginary voices in your head that totally side with you instead of me, but, by the power invested in me by Graysk., … the United Stat…, my balls, I am closer to the male experience than you are.
And if you think you can define a feminine ideal, that is in no way connected to the masculine , you are just rubbing one off mentally. [/quote]
Dude, there is no feminine ideal.
Nor is there a masculine one.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]xxxx wrote:
That is an excellent point, most of the guys I know who think they are the dominant ones are being topped from the bottom big time.[/quote]
Truth[/quote]
And so how can anyone speak with authority when we are all (except for Orion of course 
) in so much denial?
For the record, I’m not stating anything about what women and men are or aren’t. I’m only saying that we’re diverse, adaptable and prone to reproduction and relationships wherever we fall on the gender stereotype spectrum.
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Interesting that of the women who have sounded off on this, we seem more conflicted than the men. I think that’s one of the reasons why it’s worthwhile to this conversation.
[/quote]
If that’s the case I do find the forum of choice for the conversation interesting. Wouldn’t a more gender neutral or female oriented forum be more productive for the conversation about women’s roles? All I can see that you will get from the men here are statements about what they find attractive and desirable which do little to add insight into the subject.[/quote]
Yup,
Darling,
anyone,
and I mean ANYONE,
who invests one cent into what men find attractive or desirable wastes time when it comes to how to have a healthy relationship with a man.
You are shitting me, right !?!
[/quote]
lol yes that’s exactly what I was saying …
But if you would think a conversation about a woman’s gender identity should revolve around what randos on the internet think is attractive, then you are a simpleton.
Edit: you don’t honestly think you speak for all of the group called men do you?
[/quote]
No.
But I speak.
My voice is what you hear.
You can have imaginary voices in your head that totally side with you instead of me, but, by the power invested in me by Graysk., … the United Stat…, my balls, I am closer to the male experience than you are.
And if you think you can define a feminine ideal, that is in no way connected to the masculine , you are just rubbing one off mentally. [/quote]
Dude, there is no feminine ideal.
Nor is there a masculine one.
[/quote]
Name three female virtues.
No, not the generic ones that can turn any androgynous hamster into a hamster adult…
Three, distinctivly, female virtues…
So you mean virtues that females have and males do not? If I am to be honest about human behavior I’d be hard pressed to name one.
I can of course list off my Disney fed ideals, but that really doesn’t reflect my choices in who I’ve chosen to have relationships with one bit.
Can someone give me some examples of how this would work in practice? During 15 years with my ex, I can’t think of a time when we reached such an impasse that I needed to step in and say, “this is how it’s going to be.”
I picked out my cars and toys, and she picked out hers. I have a degree in finance, so I set the house budget and made the investment and retirement decisions and she had a degree in social work specializing in education so she picked out the kids’ private schools. We both took kids to birthday parties and continue to share our thoughts about the kids’ activities even though we’ve been divorced now for years.
It pretty much came down to 1) who had more knowledge in an area, or 2) who cared more about a particular subject.
I suppose I could’ve put my foot down and demanded a Japanese Maple in the back yard, but she really liked Flowering Crab Apples…
Let’s just agree to lump mass populations into over-generalized boxes.
Makes life easier to understand.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Gabby Reece - “To be truly feminine means being soft, receptive, - and look out, here it comes - submissive.”
Short article from the WSJ
Video Clip from the Today show (about 7 minutes)
She’s stirred up quite a lot of controversy with her use of the word “submissive”.
Thoughts?
Do you think this is backlash from the proponents of leaning-in and having-it-all? In other words, is the the pendulum swinging back a bit in terms of gender roles?
Is there is a biological component to men being more assertive, or women being more submissive? How does that work in a pragmatic sense of making a relationship balanced and happy?
Would the word “deferential” be better? Do you think it’s important for both partners to “be deferential” to the other?
[/quote]
I believe she is using “submissive” in the Biblical context. The word does not mean “submissive” in the sense of being a doormat.
I am (or, rather try to be) a “submissive” wife in the Biblical context. I am not remotely a doormat.
– Mrs. Jewbacca [/quote]
So say Mr. Jewbacca comes home and demands his wife get her own T-Nation account, what does Mrs. Jewbacca do?
Or better yet, what if LankyMofo demands Mrs. Jewbacca get her own T-Nation account, what does Mrs. Jewbacca do?
[/quote]
Hear hear!
Women think they want to be dominant. American women in particular (generally speaking) have this massive insecurity around it. However, the guys that turn them on are, to a man, the type who will take charge, give directions, lead, protect, and provide for them. If a woman ever finds herself in a relationship where she becomes the dominant one, she will find herself turned off by her submissive mate. And one partner is ALWAYS submissive. There is no such thing as equality. None.