Functional / Specificity

[quote]jedidiah wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:
I’ve recently confused myself regarding these terms. I see functional exercises as an exercise that produces real world strength out of the gym.

What the hell? What exercises do you know of that provide no real world strength out of the gym?

Please list these exercises that are of absolutely no use in life at all in any way, shape or form.

This shit has got to stop eventually.

Deadlifts. Seriously, when will you ever use that motion in real life?[/quote]

I agree. Unless you are moving dead bodies.

[quote]CHEKonIT wrote:
RagingBull wrote:

Here’s a list of those that come closest, though you may recognise them as being touted as being “the most functional of all”

a)Bent over row standing on Swiss-Ball
b)Barbell Bench Press lying on Swiss-ball
c)Standing one legged on a bosu while holding a “bodyblade”

All exercises I’ve seen people do at the gym, all of them as close to a complete waste of time as possible.

Ever heard of balance training, dickhead? You may take it for granted, but some of us enjoy that fine motor unit control that comes with swiss ball and bosu training. It has a great carry-over into all kinds of sports, so open up your mind, you neanderthal.[/quote]

But does it work? I think playing and practicing your sport is a better use of your time.

[quote]dreads989 wrote:
of course, I am talking about Physical Therapy, and you are probably talking about Personal Trainers (?). If that’s so, sorry. And yes, you are right lol.[/quote]

Bingo.

[quote]Mike T. wrote:
The motion the leg curl makes is not real world. I dont go picking up objects like that. Now the fact that it does develop the hamstrings is real world. I am wrong in the argument because you said real world strength, not real world motions, my mistake.

Mike

[/quote]

So, you believe no human has ever picked something up or kicked something using a movement similar to a leg curl? No soccer player alive or dead ever used that particular movement in a game? It’s getting dim in here.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
<<< So, you believe no human has ever picked something up or kicked something using a movement similar to a leg curl? No soccer player alive or dead ever used that particular movement in a game? It’s getting dim in here. [/quote]

Good form in this thread Doc ROFLMAO!!!

You’re killin me. You also beat me to every damn point. Even the soccer comment.
What do people think? If you can leg curl 100 for 10 that as soon you roll off the machine the muscles instantly atrophy to to their previous state until you get back on next time? This is fun stuff. LOL!!

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Professor X wrote:
<<< So, you believe no human has ever picked something up or kicked something using a movement similar to a leg curl? No soccer player alive or dead ever used that particular movement in a game? It’s getting dim in here.

Good form in this thread Doc ROFLMAO!!!

You’re killin me. You also beat me to every damn point. Even the soccer comment.
What do people think? If can leg curl 100 for 10 that as soon you roll off the machine the muscles instantly atrophy to to their previous state until you get back on next time? This is fun stuff. LOL!![/quote]

Can you explain the lying hamstring curl in soccer? I don’t see it.

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
Can you explain the lying hamstring curl in soccer? I don’t see it.
[/quote]

I am no great soccer fan, but even I have seen those guys kick behind their back with their heel.

That’s not even really the point. The strength/power etc. gained from any type of exercise at all persists into life beyond the performance of just that exercise. ANY frickin utilization of that muscle for any purpose whatsoever will carry with it that benefit. 100% of the time. It’s tough to understand how this can even be debated.

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
I’ve recently confused myself regarding these terms. I see functional exercises as an exercise that produces real world strength out of the gym.

So whats the difference between that and speficity?

I’ve been using the term specificity to refer more to energy systems of reps schemes.

Any clarity on this?[/quote]

Other than these being marketing terms, I see them as a somewhat perverted synonym with the term “transferability”.

Transferability refers to the degree to which improvements in the gym carryover or “transfer” to improvements in sport and in the workplace.

If a firefighter must lift a 60kg hydraulic pump from the ground and into the truck on the job site, then for this firefighter, various types the deadlift would be have greater transferability for him than types of squat or leg press.

Likewise, a competitive rock climber will spend a great amount of time with his upper body in vertical pulling isometric contractions at a few select, predictable angles. So while doing regular up-down pullups WILL improve his rock climbing ability, performing lock-off pullups where he spends 20-30 seconds per “rep” holding isometric contractions at the various angles he would experience in practice and competition would be performing an exercise with GREATER transferability…

…or “functional” or “real world” strength (to this one particular activity), if you will.

The term “transferability” I think is better because it really gets to the point and sets a playing field of exercises being MORE or LESS transferable to the specific activity.

When someone says “real world” or “functional” strength, everyone gets their shorts in a knot because it sets up a dichotomy of “either-or”. Either the deadlift IS functional, or it IS NOT functional. Either pullups ARE functional or ARE NOT functional…

One-legged squats are MORE transferable for a hockey player or speed skater than barbell back squats. This doesn’t mean that the back squat does not provide “real world” or “functional” strength, it means that if you plot out these exercises on a continuum from “less transferable” to “more transferable” the barbell back squat would be “less transferable” than the one-leg squat in this ONE SPECIFIC situation.

Also, more “raw strength” exercises like squats, deads, basic presses and pulls are superior for developing muscle mass and neural drive than perfectly-transferable exercises. This is why in the early part of the training year you give athletes “general” exercises to perform to better increase their mass and neural drive.

Then you switch them to “functional” or rather “more transferable to their specific activity” exercises to better enable them to use the strength (that they developed with basic exercises) in their real-world task or activity.

There is also the idea that some exercises have greater “general transferability” to “real world” movements. Oddly enough, the exercises real-worlders tout as being “non functional” are actually the most functional.

In the “real world” you have to pick heavy things up off of the ground → deadlift.

In the “real world” you have to lift heavy things above your head → push press.

In the “real world” you might have to push a car out of the ditch → front squat

etc, etc, etc…

Hope this helps.

– ElbowStrike

Tribulus

If you do lat pulldowns you still cant do chinups? It’s more than just the strenght of the individual muscle pulling on bone. The system that controls it all need to be trained also.

Just because you dont understand it doesnt make it wrong.

ElbowStrike

I agree with what you said, but who ever said deadlifts wern’t functional? I never saw or read such crap. The deadlift to me defines functional exercise.

[quote]Mike T. wrote:
The motion the leg curl makes is not real world. I dont go picking up objects like that. Now the fact that it does develop the hamstrings is real world. I am wrong in the argument because you said real world strength, not real world motions, my mistake.[/quote]

This is a good troll job. After all, no one could really believe this, right?

And after your tons of dollars and hours poured into your education, you get out into the work world and realize you have book smarts not actual experience. You have nothing on my 10 years experience in the field and how to work with people, athletes or not. Do not bash a trainer just becasue we are a trainer. We are the front line of the fight for a healthier, stronger society. Just because some trainers are fucking morons, doesn’t mean you need to attack the profession, our education or intelligence.

Chek is wrong, and frankly a moron. How often am I going to walk out in the world and have to balance on one leg on a wabble board while curling a 3 pound pink dumbbell? I’m not. How many times am I going to have to lift something heavy? Or do something strenuous? Walk up multiple flights of stairs or stand on my feet for hours on end? A lot more than I will the bosu/ball example. I will take the squats, deadlifts, good mornings, bench presses and pull ups over the funny balance “functional” crap any day and every day.

Functional = BS
Specific = Useful for a reason
Rehabilitative = Useful for fixing / overcoming injury or limitation
Big Compound Lifts = Required for ANYONE to progress properly
Chek / Those training methods = Why many people look at my profession with scorn.

[quote]dreads989 wrote:
We take 8 weeks of gross anatomy, 1 semester of physiology, 1 semester of anatomy, 1 semester of biomechanics, and well over 100-200 hours of clinicals. I’m going to get a Doctorate in Physical Therapy, A bachelors in Exercise Science, and possibly my Athletic Training Certification. I also aim on getting my ACSM certification sometime next year (funds permitting).
[/quote]

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
Tribulus

If you do lat pulldowns you still cant do chinups? It’s more than just the strenght of the individual muscle pulling on bone. The system that controls it all need to be trained also.

Just because you dont understand it doesnt make it wrong.

[/quote]

Of course merely getting stronger doesn’t automatically translate into specific skill if that’s what you thought I was saying. Nobody (I hope) is going to argue that differing methods of training aren’t going to be more or less beneficial to people who are looking to excel at a given sport.

That’s not the question. The debate has been over whether strength gained using an exercise wherein the body may happen to be physically situated in a position that doesn’t normally occur outside of the weight room is useful anywhere else.

I, and others, are contending that strength is strength regardless of how it was acquired or how it is called into use.

If I take a piece of cable off my pulley machine and use it to tow my car it isn’t going to break just because it wasn’t designed for that purpose.

I didn’t specify that I would have more experience than you. All the trainers and “dipshit PTs” that the other guy was referring to are most often going to be trainers that just got out into the field. There’s no doubt in my mind that a personal trainer with several years of experience under their belt knows what they are doing. I’m referring to fresh trainers that still haven’t the experience, not all trainers in general. I personally have a trainer back home, but only because he’s been in the game for several years.

My original argument was based off of mistaking PT for Physical Therapist, and I mentioned that before. I agreed wtih the fact that some trainers aren’t educated because, well, some programs can be relatively easy to ace, and usually those guys tell me in the gym to forget about deadlifts.

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
And after your tons of dollars and hours poured into your education, you get out into the work world and realize you have book smarts not actual experience. You have nothing on my 10 years experience in the field and how to work with people, athletes or not. Do not bash a trainer just becasue we are a trainer. We are the front line of the fight for a healthier, stronger society. Just because some trainers are fucking morons, doesn’t mean you need to attack the profession, our education or intelligence.

Chek is wrong, and frankly a moron. How often am I going to walk out in the world and have to balance on one leg on a wabble board while curling a 3 pound pink dumbbell? I’m not. How many times am I going to have to lift something heavy? Or do something strenuous? Walk up multiple flights of stairs or stand on my feet for hours on end? A lot more than I will the bosu/ball example. I will take the squats, deadlifts, good mornings, bench presses and pull ups over the funny balance “functional” crap any day and every day.

Functional = BS
Specific = Useful for a reason
Rehabilitative = Useful for fixing / overcoming injury or limitation
Big Compound Lifts = Required for ANYONE to progress properly
Chek / Those training methods = Why many people look at my profession with scorn.

dreads989 wrote:
We take 8 weeks of gross anatomy, 1 semester of physiology, 1 semester of anatomy, 1 semester of biomechanics, and well over 100-200 hours of clinicals. I’m going to get a Doctorate in Physical Therapy, A bachelors in Exercise Science, and possibly my Athletic Training Certification. I also aim on getting my ACSM certification sometime next year (funds permitting).

[/quote]

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:

If you do lat pulldowns you still cant do chinups? It’s more than just the strenght of the individual muscle pulling on bone. The system that controls it all need to be trained also.

Just because you dont understand it doesnt make it wrong.

[/quote]

That’s a great post… I’m laughing at a number of these guys on here simply because they have no clue about what they are talking about…

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Professor X wrote:
<<< So, you believe no human has ever picked something up or kicked something using a movement similar to a leg curl? No soccer player alive or dead ever used that particular movement in a game? It’s getting dim in here.

You’re killin me. You also beat me to every damn point. Even the soccer comment.
What do people think? If you can leg curl 100 for 10 that as soon you roll off the machine the muscles instantly atrophy to to their previous state until you get back on next time? This is fun stuff. LOL!![/quote]

I’ll think about that next time I play soccer with a 100lb ball … hahahaha… guess I should have done more “leg curls” to “develop” my hamstrings.

Crock.

SERIOUSLY - you are making the point because for every 1000 minutes of playing time a soccer player might use this movement that makes the leg curl a worthwhile exercise???

Let me put it simply… Leg Curls: BB - yes, Rehab - yes, athletic conditioning/performance… NO!

Leg curls with a swiss ball - YES!

Enjoy.

cb.

[quote]Cam Birtwell wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Professor X wrote:
<<< So, you believe no human has ever picked something up or kicked something using a movement similar to a leg curl? No soccer player alive or dead ever used that particular movement in a game? It’s getting dim in here.

You’re killin me. You also beat me to every damn point. Even the soccer comment.
What do people think? If you can leg curl 100 for 10 that as soon you roll off the machine the muscles instantly atrophy to to their previous state until you get back on next time? This is fun stuff. LOL!!

I’ll think about that next time I play soccer with a 100lb ball … hahahaha… guess I should have done more “leg curls” to “develop” my hamstrings.

Crock.

SERIOUSLY - you are making the point because for every 1000 minutes of playing time a soccer player might use this movement that makes the leg curl a worthwhile exercise???

Let me put it simply… Leg Curls: BB - yes, Rehab - yes, athletic conditioning/performance… NO!

Leg curls with a swiss ball - YES!

Enjoy.

cb.

[/quote]

Wow. I knew you were full of shit from your first post…but now, I hope everyone else can see it.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Wow. I knew you were full of shit from your first post…but now, I hope everyone else can see it.[/quote]

Hahaha… great counterpoints there Prof. I of course realize that someone who so pretentiously calls themself “Professor” would never admit that they were wrong :slight_smile:

Enjoy your day buddayyyyyyyy. Better tune up those hammies for your next soccer match!

[quote]Cam Birtwell wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Wow. I knew you were full of shit from your first post…but now, I hope everyone else can see it.

Hahaha… great counterpoints there Prof. I of course realize that someone who so pretentiously calls themself “Professor” would never admit that they were wrong :slight_smile:

Enjoy your day buddayyyyyyyy. Better tune up those hammies for your next soccer match![/quote]

Can there really be people who can use a computer well enough to post here and EVEN have an avatar who DO NOT get this? I rarely get to this point, but if you really aren’t capable of grasping what he or I are saying then you have the intellect of a jockstrap. This isn’t advanced biophysics here and is not even arguable. My 11 year old daughter could explain the concept of strength gained anywhere is strength usable anywhere.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Can there really be people who can use a computer well enough to post here and EVEN have an avatar who DO NOT get this? I rarely get to this point, but if you really aren’t capable of grasping what he or I are saying then you have the intellect of a jockstrap. This isn’t advanced biophysics here and is not even arguable. My 11 year old daughter could explain the concept of strength gained anywhere is strength usable anywhere.[/quote]

Great! Bring her in… maybe she’ll come up with better points than you and Prof that even remotely support your claims :wink:

Maybe you can have her research the literally hundreds of analyses that indicate movement pattern specificity of training (loading pattern, joint actions, speed of movement). This info is of course accessible to yourself and the “Prof” but may be above your reading comprehension level.

I would post evidence proving my point, but I’ll give you two the opportunity to bow out gracefully, or better yet come up with evidence (aside from what you “think” is happening) that supports your view.

thanks for your time

cb.

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:

Chek is wrong, and frankly a moron. How often am I going to walk out in the world and have to balance on one leg on a wabble board while curling a 3 pound pink dumbbell? I’m not. How many times am I going to have to lift something heavy? Or do something strenuous? Walk up multiple flights of stairs or stand on my feet for hours on end? A lot more than I will the bosu/ball example. I will take the squats, deadlifts, good mornings, bench presses and pull ups over the funny balance “functional” crap any day and every day.

[/quote]

Give it a rest, buddy. Any reasonable person can see that there’s good applications for BOTH methods of training, depending on the individual. Don’t be so closed minded.