'Full House' ???

Training
181

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Simply put, there is nothing showing that simply being leaner at all aids your “insulin resistance”…like was stated in this thread.[/quote]

Yes, there most certainly is. As it is posted all over this thread. You have blinders on to all of that though, so I’m through with you.[/quote]

Dear lord, THERE IS NOTHING SHOWING THAT YOU SIMPLY BEING 1 PERCENT LEANER IMPROVES INSULIN RESISTANCE.[/quote]
no one claimed a 1% difference. The study did show causation, so there’s a range and obviously insulin resistance will slide correspondingly on that[/quote]

yes, there is a correlation between OBESITY and those insulin levels…/.not some direct correlation with body fat itself. That is the point being made.

I mean, no offense, I think I have made this very clear by now.[/quote]
No offense taken, Zeb. With the sample size given in the first study shown, a correlation between BMI and insulin resistance will confer a correlation between bodyfat and insulin resistance. If there’s a correlation, there’s obviously a scale! Clearly doubledeuce’s and my own fat loss have had an impact according to the studies and anecdotes given. I don’t see why there’s a vendetta to prove that there isn’t a correlation! If we are to be fair with the broscience claims, then we need to see studies about holding a weight as well as bulking to high bodyfats.

182

related:
I haven’t watched all of this, but a big point by Mr. Pulcinella was that in absence of clinical studies done on bodybuilders, he’s looked at results that he’s gotten on thousands of clients with very controlled lifestyles. Now clearly that isn’t perfect science, but in my opinion that might be the best we’ve got. The sample size is large, the results are repeatable, and given how strict competitive bodybuilders are, the variables are pretty tightly controlled in many ways.

183

I think we are all getting trolled.

184

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I think we are all getting trolled.[/quote]

When are we not?

But let’s not discuss it or say anything about it or even suggest it should stop, lest we bring the forums down with childish behavior.

185

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

I was pointing out that the expectation of such a study is ridiculous, and in fact, is what will make this topic, and most topics in bodybuilding, very difficult to discuss. [/quote]

the problem with this is PEOPLE ARE STILL DISCUSSING IT and they are filling in the gaps with BRO SCIENCE and not truth.

That is why that point was made. They fill in the gaps with what they WANT to be true.

[quote]

You say this discussion is about what is actually true. How do we decide (or discuss) what is actually true[/quote]

By doing what has been done for the past half century in bodybuilding…looking at what happens to us ourselves and discussing experience. That is how bodybuilding has actually managed to stay ahead of science in many areas.

We can use studies to aid us in learning, but making up results to fill in the gaps is scientifically disingenuous.[/quote]

Why even discuss what is the best way to train if we dont even have studies to prove it therefor we only use broscience aka not the truth

amirite?

No point discussing it

Fuck bodybuilding forums alltogether

186

[quote]zraw wrote:

Why even discuss what is the best way to train if we dont even have studies to prove it therefor we only use broscience aka not the truth
[/quote]

How would I be able to tell someone I was right and they were wrong? THAT is why we discuss this, kid.

187

The 1% difference argument is very funny to me

What if someone goes from 22% bodyfat to 12% bodyfat PX?

Do you think his insulin sensitivty will be unchanged?

You are the only one mentionning the 1% difference…

Its like if you told me “eat more and you will grow”

and I replied

NO. 10 CALORIES/DAY WONT CHANGE SHIT TO MY BODY COMPOSITION

188

This just in, scientists have recently proven that there is no concrete research on the effects of bodyfat % on insulin sentivity, BUT they have proven without a doubt that someone questioning your bodyfat % has dramatic effects on emotional sensitivity.

189

[quote]Waittz wrote:
This just in, scientists have recently proven that there is no concrete research on the effects of bodyfat % on insulin sentivity, BUT they have proven without a doubt that someone questioning your bodyfat % has dramatic effects on emotional sensitivity. [/quote]

FTW

/thread

190

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
This just in, scientists have recently proven that there is no concrete research on the effects of bodyfat % on insulin sentivity, BUT they have proven without a doubt that someone questioning your bodyfat % has dramatic effects on emotional sensitivity. [/quote]

FTW

/thread[/quote]

snark snark snark

191

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
This just in, scientists have recently proven that there is no concrete research on the effects of bodyfat % on insulin sentivity, BUT they have proven without a doubt that someone questioning your bodyfat % has dramatic effects on emotional sensitivity. [/quote]

FTW

/thread[/quote]

snark snark snark [/quote]

But remember “steroid muscles look different” isn’t bro science. IT’S TRUTH.

192

[quote]zraw wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

I was pointing out that the expectation of such a study is ridiculous, and in fact, is what will make this topic, and most topics in bodybuilding, very difficult to discuss. [/quote]

the problem with this is PEOPLE ARE STILL DISCUSSING IT and they are filling in the gaps with BRO SCIENCE and not truth.

That is why that point was made. They fill in the gaps with what they WANT to be true.

[quote]

You say this discussion is about what is actually true. How do we decide (or discuss) what is actually true[/quote]

By doing what has been done for the past half century in bodybuilding…looking at what happens to us ourselves and discussing experience. That is how bodybuilding has actually managed to stay ahead of science in many areas.

We can use studies to aid us in learning, but making up results to fill in the gaps is scientifically disingenuous.[/quote]

Why even discuss what is the best way to train if we dont even have studies to prove it therefor we only use broscience aka not the truth

amirite?

No point discussing it

Fuck bodybuilding forums alltogether[/quote]

Exactly.

Let’s get off the insulin sensitivity track for a moment. CT mentioned before that more and more pros (natty and non) are staying leaner year round. A few members here have mentioned success with this as well. If professionals are noticing the benefits, then I don’t care what you attribute it to. It could be a combination of things associated with diet, insulin sensitivity, hormone profile, etc.

The bottom line is, if the top bodybuilders and coaches are using and recommending this strategy I don’t need a geek in a lab coat to confirm its effectiveness. If full house is your preferred look, then fine. But I’ll trust the guys with the most experience training themselves and others as to which method is more efficient at building muscle.

193

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

Posted by you as full house. IMO, over 20% bf. Probably close to 30%. I think most would agree. From what I remember from what DD used to look like, he wasn’t quite as fat as this.

[/quote]

Close to 30? Dude, what is with you all jumping 10 whole percentage points if someone is over 20% body fat?

He may be over 20%…but to say he is obese is just wrong.[/quote]

Because you’re a doctor, I’ll use a clinical indicator as I have before: 25% is considered obese. So above 20% but under 25% is approaching obesity. Do you have a problem with someone considering obese even in OBJECTIVE terms?

I know we have to watch our P’s and Q’s when discussing your beloved permabulkers and bodybuilding heros. We can’t consider someone fat or obese and we can’t say that some bodybuilder is unethical or immoral else it will hurt your fragile feelings or clash with your belief system. So long as a person sports a ton of LBM, he can be obese and dare we point that out when you give us an example of such a person.

194

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

hey I can look ok in a well fitting shirt!

[/quote]

Lol I was about to say. I’m quite small (avi is recent) and I get comments about lifting and stuff a lot, unless I’m wearing a shirt XXL shirt or something (though I rarely do, because I like to buy clothes that fit). [/quote]

You’re making great progress from what I’ve seen and will continue to do so judging from your enthusiasm, knowledge, and dedication.

Almost no one but overbulked/fat people or IFBB pros or athlete or type of lifter in the 275 or SHW class and up fill out XXL shirts.

People with “trained eyes” know a muscular guy when they see one, even if he’s not filling out XL+ shirts just like they can spot permabulkers or athletes whose overall high body mass is of consequence (eg, elite powerlifter or Olympic lifter or lineman).

195

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Simply put, there is nothing showing that simply being leaner at all aids your “insulin resistance”…like was stated in this thread.[/quote]

Yes, there most certainly is. As it is posted all over this thread. You have blinders on to all of that though, so I’m through with you.[/quote]

Dear lord, THERE IS NOTHING SHOWING THAT YOU SIMPLY BEING 1 PERCENT LEANER IMPROVES INSULIN RESISTANCE.[/quote]
no one claimed a 1% difference. The study did show causation, so there’s a range and obviously insulin resistance will slide correspondingly on that[/quote]

yes, there is a correlation between OBESITY and those insulin levels…/.not some direct correlation with body fat itself. That is the point being made.

I mean, no offense, I think I have made this very clear by now.[/quote]
No offense taken, Zeb. With the sample size given in the first study shown, a correlation between BMI and insulin resistance will confer a correlation between bodyfat and insulin resistance. If there’s a correlation, there’s obviously a scale! Clearly doubledeuce’s and my own fat loss have had an impact according to the studies and anecdotes given. I don’t see why there’s a vendetta to prove that there isn’t a correlation! If we are to be fair with the broscience claims, then we need to see studies about holding a weight as well as bulking to high bodyfats.[/quote]

Even if correlation implied causation, how would the study determine which way the causality operated?
Think about this: what if, by the very nature of what insulin resistance is (think about it), it was actually the case that insulin resistance was a prior condition that caused increases in bf%. Furthermore, what if diet and training improvements affected insulin sensitivity first, and the improved insulin sensitivity subsequently affected bf%? Are there any thoughts on this?

196

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Simply put, there is nothing showing that simply being leaner at all aids your “insulin resistance”…like was stated in this thread.[/quote]

Yes, there most certainly is. As it is posted all over this thread. You have blinders on to all of that though, so I’m through with you.[/quote]

Dear lord, THERE IS NOTHING SHOWING THAT YOU SIMPLY BEING 1 PERCENT LEANER IMPROVES INSULIN RESISTANCE.[/quote]
no one claimed a 1% difference. The study did show causation, so there’s a range and obviously insulin resistance will slide correspondingly on that[/quote]

yes, there is a correlation between OBESITY and those insulin levels…/.not some direct correlation with body fat itself. That is the point being made.

I mean, no offense, I think I have made this very clear by now.[/quote]
No offense taken, Zeb. With the sample size given in the first study shown, a correlation between BMI and insulin resistance will confer a correlation between bodyfat and insulin resistance. If there’s a correlation, there’s obviously a scale! Clearly doubledeuce’s and my own fat loss have had an impact according to the studies and anecdotes given. I don’t see why there’s a vendetta to prove that there isn’t a correlation! If we are to be fair with the broscience claims, then we need to see studies about holding a weight as well as bulking to high bodyfats.[/quote]

Even if correlation implied causation, how would the study determine which way the causality operated?
Think about this: what if, by the very nature of what insulin resistance is (think about it), it was actually the case that insulin resistance was a prior condition that caused increases in bf%. Furthermore, what if diet and training improvements affected insulin sensitivity first, and the improved insulin sensitivity subsequently affected bf%? Are there any thoughts on this?

[/quote]

Favorite Napalm Death album? Lol!

197

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Simply put, there is nothing showing that simply being leaner at all aids your “insulin resistance”…like was stated in this thread.[/quote]

Yes, there most certainly is. As it is posted all over this thread. You have blinders on to all of that though, so I’m through with you.[/quote]

Dear lord, THERE IS NOTHING SHOWING THAT YOU SIMPLY BEING 1 PERCENT LEANER IMPROVES INSULIN RESISTANCE.[/quote]
no one claimed a 1% difference. The study did show causation, so there’s a range and obviously insulin resistance will slide correspondingly on that[/quote]

yes, there is a correlation between OBESITY and those insulin levels…/.not some direct correlation with body fat itself. That is the point being made.

I mean, no offense, I think I have made this very clear by now.[/quote]
No offense taken, Zeb. With the sample size given in the first study shown, a correlation between BMI and insulin resistance will confer a correlation between bodyfat and insulin resistance. If there’s a correlation, there’s obviously a scale! Clearly doubledeuce’s and my own fat loss have had an impact according to the studies and anecdotes given. I don’t see why there’s a vendetta to prove that there isn’t a correlation! If we are to be fair with the broscience claims, then we need to see studies about holding a weight as well as bulking to high bodyfats.[/quote]

Even if correlation implied causation, how would the study determine which way the causality operated?
Think about this: what if, by the very nature of what insulin resistance is (think about it), it was actually the case that insulin resistance was a prior condition that caused increases in bf%. Furthermore, what if diet and training improvements affected insulin sensitivity first, and the improved insulin sensitivity subsequently affected bf%? Are there any thoughts on this?

[/quote]
I honestly don’t know, you may be right. Messing with the other variables is part of proving that a strong correlation is in fact causation. The relationship would have to hold water in different scenarios, i.e. more bodyfat → more insulin resistance in the scenarios you listed as well as the ones we talked about earlier. They also look at confounding factors or other possible correlations - such as yours - and test them as well. It’s a long and boring process that I’m glad to be out of lol. Peer review is definitely a big part of it. There’s also a good amount of exercise science being studied out there.

198

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Simply put, there is nothing showing that simply being leaner at all aids your “insulin resistance”…like was stated in this thread.[/quote]

Yes, there most certainly is. As it is posted all over this thread. You have blinders on to all of that though, so I’m through with you.[/quote]

Dear lord, THERE IS NOTHING SHOWING THAT YOU SIMPLY BEING 1 PERCENT LEANER IMPROVES INSULIN RESISTANCE.[/quote]
no one claimed a 1% difference. The study did show causation, so there’s a range and obviously insulin resistance will slide correspondingly on that[/quote]

yes, there is a correlation between OBESITY and those insulin levels…/.not some direct correlation with body fat itself. That is the point being made.

I mean, no offense, I think I have made this very clear by now.[/quote]
No offense taken, Zeb. With the sample size given in the first study shown, a correlation between BMI and insulin resistance will confer a correlation between bodyfat and insulin resistance. If there’s a correlation, there’s obviously a scale! Clearly doubledeuce’s and my own fat loss have had an impact according to the studies and anecdotes given. I don’t see why there’s a vendetta to prove that there isn’t a correlation! If we are to be fair with the broscience claims, then we need to see studies about holding a weight as well as bulking to high bodyfats.[/quote]

Even if correlation implied causation, how would the study determine which way the causality operated?
Think about this: what if, by the very nature of what insulin resistance is (think about it), it was actually the case that insulin resistance was a prior condition that caused increases in bf%. Furthermore, what if diet and training improvements affected insulin sensitivity first, and the improved insulin sensitivity subsequently affected bf%? Are there any thoughts on this?

[/quote]

Favorite Napalm Death album? Lol!
[/quote]
Hmm tough one… 90’s stuff mostly…Diatribes maybe… but Fear, Emptiness, Despair had better riffs and drums… the vocals are pretty much the same on every album ever

but seriously…
My understanding was that if you improve your insulin sensitivity you will be able to maintain a leaner physique, the idea being that the more sensitive to insulin you are, the more glucose will be stored in muscles as glycogen as opposed to being stored as fat. I could be wrong on this…

But if the above is correct, I don’t understand the slant all these posts have taken, like “One should have lower body fat so thar one will have higher insulin sensitivity”. Just seems ass backwards

199

I think both are true to be honest. I’m not sure to what degree you can mess with your insulin sensitivity though.

200

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

The small bodyfat percentage changes was something X threw in, I never brought them up. I am talking about more significant changes.

And again, I noted my own personal fasting glucose level as evidence that it does change within the individual. [/quote]

?? “more significant changes”? Look, if you are still discussing going from OBESE to not obese, then yes, I am sure you saw a difference.

Most studies seem to imply that.

However, once again, we are not discussing obesity in this discussion.

Unless you were “just a little bit fatter” or at least within 10% of where you are now at the start, your results aren’t what we are discussing.[/quote]

At 210 and 25% bodyfat, my fasted glucose was 114 mg/dl, at 184 and 15% several months later, it was 81mg/dl. That’s off of the blood work and corresponding highly detailed full physicals in my file cabinet. I was lifting 4-5 days per week and consuming a high protein diet with roughly the same relative macronutrient composition throughout. No medications, no drugs, just fewer calories. Losing 25 lbs improved my fasting glucose by 33mg/dl in 4 months. Good enough for you?