'Full House' ???

Training
161

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
Seems a little short sighted to ignore the study Dr Pangloss posted. It’s not perfect, but it definitely gives food for thought.

Would be interesting if they did do a study on a weight training population so we could see the effect of weight training on insulin resistance, then we could compare the two population groups.

Interesting stuff. I personally think that the study by Dr P, plus the anecdotal evidence in this thread is enough to convince me that insulin resistance does exist on a spectrum, with lean people and fat people being on opposite ends.

Does a big muscular guy who rocks the “full house” need to worry about insulin resistance? Probably not providing he’s training hard, which we’ll assume he is if he’s gotten big in the first place (but there has to be a point where carrying fat will do more harm than good, call it brosceince if you will but ti just seems like common sense to me). The semantics of “full house” seem to be in question though, as some people consider it to be fatter than others. Would this full house bodybuilder example be better primed to build muscle and not store as much fat if he got leaner and improved his insulin sensitivity? Probably, but the question that we have no answer to is “how much?”. I wonder if going from 20% bodyfat to 15% bodyfat would really be all that significant.

interesting topic though. I think we’ve strayed quite a bit past the “why would anyone prefer the full house look?” original purpose of the thread, but there has been some interesting stuff posted.

[/quote]

Seriously, great summary and my thoughts exactly. [/quote]

and I don’t even lift :wink:

162

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

And that is exactly what is being discussed right here in this thread. People looking at what happens to them and discussing their experience.[/quote]

Are you able to “look” and judge your blood levels of insulin?

[/quote]

Are you? you keep making these insulin sensitive and healthy claims about training. Studies please. [/quote]

No, I’m not…which is the point of this discussion.

I would never make a claim like that.[/quote]

I actually starting going through this thread and pulling out all the quotes where you made scientific claims (and contradictory) claims, but you just aren’t worth it.

163

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

And that is exactly what is being discussed right here in this thread. People looking at what happens to them and discussing their experience.[/quote]

Are you able to “look” and judge your blood levels of insulin?

[/quote]

Through science we have been able to determine what physical side effects come with poor insulin sensitivity. By losing fat and noticing that those symptoms you had went away, you can conclude that indeed your insulin sensitivity improved.

That is exactly what people are saying in this thread. To try and whittle it down to a specific range of fat loss or certain starting point is silly, since everybody will be different.

Is that broken down clear enough?

164

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Simply put, there is nothing showing that simply being leaner at all aids your “insulin resistance”…like was stated in this thread.[/quote]

Yes, there most certainly is. As it is posted all over this thread. You have blinders on to all of that though, so I’m through with you.

165

Maybe this will help: Improvement in insulin sensitivity following a 1-year lifestyle intervention program in viscerally obese men: contribution of abdominal adiposity - PubMed

Clinical Science: Improvement in insulin sensitivity following a 1-year lifestyle intervention program in viscerally obese men: contribution of abdominal adiposity.Authors:Anne-Laure Borela
Julie-Anne Nazarea
Jessica Smitha
Natalie Almérasa
Angelo Tremblaya, b
Jean Bergeronc
Paul Poiriera
Jean-Pierre Desprésa, b, ⁎.
Affiliation:a Centre de recherche de l’Institut universitaire de cardiologie et de pneumologie de Québec, Québec, QC, Canada
b Division of Kinesiology, Department of Social and Preventive Medicine, Université Laval, Québec, QC, Canada
c Lipid Research Center, CHUL Research Center, Québec, QC, Canada.

Note:Authors contribution: Anne-Laure Borel: data analysis, data interpretation and manuscript writing. Julie-Anne Nazare: data interpretation and critical revision. Jessica Smith: data interpretation and critical revision. Natalie Alméras: design conception, conduct of the study, and critical revision. Angelo Tremblay: design conception and critical revision. Jean Bergeron: design conception and critical revision. Paul Poirier: design conception and critical revision. Jean-Pierre Després: design conception, conduct of the study, data interpretation, critical revision…
Source:In Metabolism 61(2):262-272.
Publisher:Elsevier Inc…

Abstract:The objectives of the study were to quantify the effect of a 1-year healthy eating?physical activity/exercise lifestyle modification program on insulin sensitivity in viscerally obese men classified according to their glucose tolerance status and to evaluate the respective contributions of changes in body fat distribution vs changes in cardiorespiratory fitness (CRF) to the improvements in indices of plasma glucose/insulin homeostasis. Abdominally obese, dyslipidemic men (waist circumference ≥90 cm, triglycerides ≥1.69 mmol/L, and/or high-density lipoprotein cholesterol <1.03 mmol/L) were recruited. The 1-year intervention/evaluation was completed by 104 men.

Body weight, composition, and fat distribution were assessed by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry/computed tomography. Cardiorespiratory fitness and cardiometabolic risk profile were measured. After 1 year, insulin sensitivity improved in association with decreases in both visceral (VAT) and subcutaneous adiposity (SAT) as well as with the improvement in CRF, regardless of baseline glucose tolerance. Further analyses were performed according to changes in glucose tolerance status: improvement (group I, n = 39), no change (group N, n = 50), or worsening (group W, n = 15) after 1 year. Groups I and N improved their insulin sensitivity and their CRF, whereas group W did not, while losing less VAT than groups I and N. Multiple regressions showed that reduction in VAT was associated with an improvement in homeostasis model assessment of insulin resistance, whereas reduction in SAT was rather associated with improvement of the insulin sensitivity index of Matsuda.

Changes in CRF were not independently associated with changes in indices of plasma glucose/insulin homeostasis. A 1-year lifestyle intervention improved plasma glucose/insulin homeostasis in viscerally obese men, including those with normal glucose tolerance status at baseline. Changes in SAT and VAT but not in CRF appeared to mediate these improvements…

Document Type:Article.
ISSN:0026-0495.
DOI:10.1016/j.metabol.2011.06.024.
Accession Number:S0026049511002149.
Copyright:Copyright © 2012 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved…
Database: ScienceDirect.

166

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Maybe this will help: Improvement in insulin sensitivity following a 1-year lifestyle intervention program in viscerally obese men: contribution of abdominal adiposity - PubMed

Clinical Science: Improvement in insulin sensitivity following a 1-year lifestyle intervention program in viscerally obese men: contribution of abdominal adiposity.Authors:Anne-Laure Borela
Julie-Anne Nazarea
Jessica Smitha
Natalie Almérasa
Angelo Tremblaya, b
Jean Bergeronc
Paul Poiriera
Jean-Pierre Desprésa, b, ⁎.
Affiliation:a Centre de recherche de l’Institut universitaire de cardiologie et de pneumologie de Québec, Québec, QC, Canada
b Division of Kinesiology, Department of Social and Preventive Medicine, Université Laval, Québec, QC, Canada
c Lipid Research Center, CHUL Research Center, Québec, QC, Canada.

Note:Authors contribution: Anne-Laure Borel: data analysis, data interpretation and manuscript writing. Julie-Anne Nazare: data interpretation and critical revision. Jessica Smith: data interpretation and critical revision. Natalie Alméras: design conception, conduct of the study, and critical revision. Angelo Tremblay: design conception and critical revision. Jean Bergeron: design conception and critical revision. Paul Poirier: design conception and critical revision. Jean-Pierre Després: design conception, conduct of the study, data interpretation, critical revision…
Source:In Metabolism 61(2):262-272.
Publisher:Elsevier Inc…

Abstract:The objectives of the study were to quantify the effect of a 1-year healthy eating?physical activity/exercise lifestyle modification program on insulin sensitivity in viscerally obese men classified according to their glucose tolerance status and to evaluate the respective contributions of changes in body fat distribution vs changes in cardiorespiratory fitness (CRF) to the improvements in indices of plasma glucose/insulin homeostasis. Abdominally obese, dyslipidemic men (waist circumference ≥90 cm, triglycerides ≥1.69 mmol/L, and/or high-density lipoprotein cholesterol <1.03 mmol/L) were recruited. The 1-year intervention/evaluation was completed by 104 men.

Body weight, composition, and fat distribution were assessed by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry/computed tomography. Cardiorespiratory fitness and cardiometabolic risk profile were measured. After 1 year, insulin sensitivity improved in association with decreases in both visceral (VAT) and subcutaneous adiposity (SAT) as well as with the improvement in CRF, regardless of baseline glucose tolerance. Further analyses were performed according to changes in glucose tolerance status: improvement (group I, n = 39), no change (group N, n = 50), or worsening (group W, n = 15) after 1 year. Groups I and N improved their insulin sensitivity and their CRF, whereas group W did not, while losing less VAT than groups I and N. Multiple regressions showed that reduction in VAT was associated with an improvement in homeostasis model assessment of insulin resistance, whereas reduction in SAT was rather associated with improvement of the insulin sensitivity index of Matsuda.

Changes in CRF were not independently associated with changes in indices of plasma glucose/insulin homeostasis. A 1-year lifestyle intervention improved plasma glucose/insulin homeostasis in viscerally obese men, including those with normal glucose tolerance status at baseline. Changes in SAT and VAT but not in CRF appeared to mediate these improvements…

Document Type:Article.
ISSN:0026-0495.
DOI:10.1016/j.metabol.2011.06.024.
Accession Number:S0026049511002149.
Copyright:Copyright © 2012 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved…
Database: ScienceDirect.[/quote]

This means nothing since it was done on obese men and it has NOTHING to do with the population we are talking about. It will be wholly rejected as meaningless.

167

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Many of the guys mentioned could easily stand to lose 15% or more. 15% on a 300 pounder is 45+ pounds. Hell, even 10% (which probably wouldn’t get many of these guys close to lean) would be 30 pounds of fat loss. That is a Significant chunk of fat.

You act like obese and muscular are mutually exclusive. Though many of these guys look good, yes, some are in fact fat.
[/quote]

? Obesity is defined as 30% body fat and above in most areas. I don’t see anyone with body fat that high being judged as “full house”.

once again, how did you look when fatter? Please post pictures.[/quote]

Posted by you as full house. IMO, over 20% bf. Probably close to 30%. I think most would agree. From what I remember from what DD used to look like, he wasn’t quite as fat as this.

168

one thing to note is that the markers used in the above study are better than the one’s used in pangloss’ study, but the latter had a much much larger sample size. Both studies are related the the topic at hand - when you have such a large sample size and there is a correlation with BMI, that translates to a correlation with bodyfat levels

169

Damn

170

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Simply put, there is nothing showing that simply being leaner at all aids your “insulin resistance”…like was stated in this thread.[/quote]

Yes, there most certainly is. As it is posted all over this thread. You have blinders on to all of that though, so I’m through with you.[/quote]

Dear lord, THERE IS NOTHING SHOWING THAT YOU SIMPLY BEING 1 PERCENT LEANER IMPROVES INSULIN RESISTANCE.

171

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

Posted by you as full house. IMO, over 20% bf. Probably close to 30%. I think most would agree. From what I remember from what DD used to look like, he wasn’t quite as fat as this.

[/quote]

Close to 30? Dude, what is with you all jumping 10 whole percentage points if someone is over 20% body fat?

He may be over 20%…but to say he is obese is just wrong.

172

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Simply put, there is nothing showing that simply being leaner at all aids your “insulin resistance”…like was stated in this thread.[/quote]

Yes, there most certainly is. As it is posted all over this thread. You have blinders on to all of that though, so I’m through with you.[/quote]

Dear lord, THERE IS NOTHING SHOWING THAT YOU SIMPLY BEING 1 PERCENT LEANER IMPROVES INSULIN RESISTANCE.[/quote]
no one claimed a 1% difference. The study did show causation, so there’s a range and obviously insulin resistance will slide correspondingly on that

173

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Many of the guys mentioned could easily stand to lose 15% or more. 15% on a 300 pounder is 45+ pounds. Hell, even 10% (which probably wouldn’t get many of these guys close to lean) would be 30 pounds of fat loss. That is a Significant chunk of fat.

You act like obese and muscular are mutually exclusive. Though many of these guys look good, yes, some are in fact fat.
[/quote]

? Obesity is defined as 30% body fat and above in most areas. I don’t see anyone with body fat that high being judged as “full house”.

once again, how did you look when fatter? Please post pictures.[/quote]

Posted by you as full house. IMO, over 20% bf. Probably close to 30%. I think most would agree. From what I remember from what DD used to look like, he wasn’t quite as fat as this.

[/quote]

Good post.

This is what some people seem to be doing lately. Making statements about how you define a term then moving the goal post about specific numbers when it benefits you.

I’ve been seeing this a lot lately and it’s getting old.

If you can’t have a discussion about a topic and be consistent, please leave the discussion so those who are consistent can have a decent discussion.

174

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

Posted by you as full house. IMO, over 20% bf. Probably close to 30%. I think most would agree. From what I remember from what DD used to look like, he wasn’t quite as fat as this.

[/quote]

Close to 30? Dude, what is with you all jumping 10 whole percentage points if someone is over 20% body fat?

He may be over 20%…but to say he is obese is just wrong.[/quote]

I think he is closer to 30% than 20%, judging by that pic.

175

How about this one: Shibboleth Authentication Request

[Strength training improves insulin sensitivity and plasma lipid levels without altering body composition in overweight and obese subjects]…Transliterated Title:El entrenamiento con pesas mejora la sensibilidad a la insulina y los niveles plasmáticos de lípidos, sin alterar la composición corporal en sujetos con sobrepeso y obesidad…
Authors:Hernán Jiménez O ; Ramírez-Vélez R.
Author Address:Programa de Profesional en Deporte y Actividad Física, Escuela Nacional del Deporte, Cali, Colombia…
Source:Endocrinología Y Nutrición: Órgano De La Sociedad Española De Endocrinología Y Nutrición [Endocrinol Nutr] 2011 Apr; Vol. 58 (4), pp. 169-74. Date of Electronic Publication: 2011 Apr 03…

Publication Type:English Abstract; Journal Article; Randomized Controlled Trial; Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov’t.
Language:Spanish.
Journal Information:Country of Publication: Spain NLM ID: 100886482 Publication Model: Print-Electronic Cited Medium: Internet ISSN: 1579-2021 (Electronic) Linking ISSN: 15750922 NLM ISO Abbreviation: Endocrinol Nutr Subsets: MEDLINE.
Imprints:Publication: Barcelona : Elsevier Doyma
Original Publication: Barcelona : Ediciones Doyma, c1999-.
MeSH Terms:Body Composition*
Insulin Resistance*
Resistance Training*
Lipids/*blood
Overweight/*therapy

Adolescent ; Adult ; Blood Glucose/analysis ; Humans ; Insulin/blood ; Intervention Studies ; Male ; Obesity/blood ; Obesity/pathology ; Obesity/therapy ; Overweight/blood ; Overweight/pathology ; Prospective Studies ; Waist-Hip Ratio ; Young Adult.

Abstract:Objective: To assess the effect of long-term strength training on insulin sensitivity, lipid profile, and body composition in overweight and obese subjects.
Materials and Methods: A prospective, randomized, interventional study in 16 overweight or obese subjects aged 18-35years who were investigated before and at the end of 8weeks of strength training. The experimental group (n=8) followed a strength training program consisting of 4 sessions per week at 50% to 80% of repetition maximum (RM), estimated through the 1RM test. The control group (n=8) did not perform the training program.

Glucose, insulin, total cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL-C, VLDL-C, and LDL-C levels and arterial index were determined. Insulin sensitivity was measured by calculating HOMA-IR (Homeostatic Model Assessment-Insulin Resistance). Indicators of body composition included weight, height, waist circumference, body fat, fat weight, muscle mass, somatotype chart and distance.

Results: At the end of intervention, the experimental group showed a decrease of insulin sensitivity (3.5±0.9 vs. 2.9±1.2; p=0.04), LDL-C (106.9±20.8 vs. 95.5±14.2; p=0.03), and arterial index (4.0±0.6 vs. 3.5±0.5; p=0.01), as well as an increase in HDL-C levels (43.7±8.8 vs. 46.9±5.6; p=0.04), while the control group remained stable. There were no significant differences between groups in body composition, somatotype chart and distance after training.
Conclusions: In overweight and obese subjects, strength training for eight weeks improved insulin sensitivity and lipid profile without altering body composition.
(Copyright © 2011 SEEN. Published by Elsevier Espana. All rights reserved.).

Substance Nomenclature:0 (Blood Glucose)
0 (Insulin)
0 (Lipids).
Entry Dates:Date Created: 20110418 Date Completed: 20110909 Latest Revision: 20111117.
Update Code:20121129.
DOI:10.1016/j.endonu.2011.02.005.
PMID:21459690.
Database: MEDLINE.

176

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Simply put, there is nothing showing that simply being leaner at all aids your “insulin resistance”…like was stated in this thread.[/quote]

Yes, there most certainly is. As it is posted all over this thread. You have blinders on to all of that though, so I’m through with you.[/quote]

Dear lord, THERE IS NOTHING SHOWING THAT YOU SIMPLY BEING 1 PERCENT LEANER IMPROVES INSULIN RESISTANCE.[/quote]
no one claimed a 1% difference. The study did show causation, so there’s a range and obviously insulin resistance will slide correspondingly on that[/quote]

yes, there is a correlation between OBESITY and those insulin levels…/.not some direct correlation with body fat itself. That is the point being made.

I mean, no offense, I think I have made this very clear by now.

177

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

Posted by you as full house. IMO, over 20% bf. Probably close to 30%. I think most would agree. From what I remember from what DD used to look like, he wasn’t quite as fat as this.

[/quote]

Close to 30? Dude, what is with you all jumping 10 whole percentage points if someone is over 20% body fat?

He may be over 20%…but to say he is obese is just wrong.[/quote]

I think he is closer to 30% than 20%, judging by that pic. [/quote]

Then I would not trust you to judge body fat by eye.

30% is love handles and huge gut, not that.

178

^ Seems weight training affects insulin sensitivity more so than actual fat loss according to this research.

179

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
^ Seems weight training affects insulin sensitivity more so than actual fat loss according to this research. [/quote]

…which is what I said from the start.

People just want it to be true so they fill in the blanks as they see fit and argue against it with no scientific proof at all.

180

[quote]Professor X wrote:

People just want it to be true so they fill in the blanks as they see fit and argue against it with no scientific proof at all.[/quote]

Then hold yourself to your own rule from now on and never claim that paying less attention to leanness while trying to gain size is beneficial. You have no scientific proof at all.

Unless you want to ALLOW others to make anecdotal claims about their OWN experiences.