i take issue with your claims of below average genetics. in my limited time working out, and playin the mentor to other people who had never weight trained before, there is no such thing as below average genetics. just intelligent training
Okay, I just read this whole thread, and… I am amazed that you have been here for three, almost four years now, and still you are clueless. I do not even think you even understand the very training you yourself do.
Of course, I do not really expect this to impact you in any which way… but based on what I have read, I am willing to bet that if you compared pictures of yourself when you first joined this site, and yourself now, you would look almost exactly the same.
And that is just sad.
[quote]Kanada wrote:
i take issue with your claims of below average genetics. in my limited time working out, and playin the mentor to other people who had never weight trained before, there is no such thing as below average genetics. just intelligent training[/quote]
Actually, it’s one of those non-intuitive facts that 50% of persons are either utterly precisely at, which is rather rare, or are below the average (or more precisely, the median).
[quote]Kanada wrote:
i take issue with your claims of below average genetics. in my limited time working out, and playin the mentor to other people who had never weight trained before, there is no such thing as below average genetics. just intelligent training[/quote]
“below average genetics” : small joints, thin bone structures, weak tendons, etc. No amount of training and meat (muscle) will allow those structures to function at the highest or “above average” levels.
[quote]Thy. wrote:
Kanada wrote:
i take issue with your claims of below average genetics. in my limited time working out, and playin the mentor to other people who had never weight trained before, there is no such thing as below average genetics. just intelligent training
“below average genetics” : small joints, thin bone structures, weak tendons. No amount of training and meat (muscle) will allow those structures to function at the highest or “above average” levels.[/quote]
What? ALL trainers have “weak tendons” until they are trained to get stronger. That is one of the effects of lifting heavy weights. Small joints??? Like Flex Wheeler and other pros who are KNOWN for their small joints? Mind you, as someone with a very large background in biology, could you explain to me what the hell you mean by “thin bone structure”? I had “thin bone structure” as well…WHEN I WAS VERY THIN.
There probably about as many true “hardgainers” in the world as there are Ronnie Colemans. It is amazing that all of them apparently found this website, somehow know they are tragically genetically inclined…yet won’t find a fucking new hobby so we don’t have to hear about what they can’t do all of the time.
[quote]Thy. wrote:
Kanada wrote:
i take issue with your claims of below average genetics. in my limited time working out, and playin the mentor to other people who had never weight trained before, there is no such thing as below average genetics. just intelligent training
“below average genetics” : small joints, thin bone structures, weak tendons, etc. No amount of training and meat (muscle) will allow those structures to function at the highest or “above average” levels.[/quote]
That describes at least half, if not more, of the guys on this site who are now the biggest and strongest here as they started out back in the day.
Hm.
Thin wrists? Yeah, I have to use wrist-wraps on some exercises… Just like even the most thick-wristed powerlifters have to on occasion. And my wrists have grown about an inch or perhaps a little more by now and that happened AFTER I hit 20 y.o. probably due to tendon thickening/bone strengthening from exercise demands or whatever.
Thin joints? Great, you may not end up squatting 800+ raw, but you’ll look great as a bodybuilder.
Weak tendons? They’ll become stronger along with the rest of you in time, if you force them to.
Sure, there are some exercises I can’t do (traditional skullcrushers, palms-facing DB extensions, french presses) due to some structural/genetic issues (no, no tendonitis present), but oh well, there are plenty of great, if not better, alternatives.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Thy. wrote:
Kanada wrote:
i take issue with your claims of below average genetics. in my limited time working out, and playin the mentor to other people who had never weight trained before, there is no such thing as below average genetics. just intelligent training
“below average genetics” : small joints, thin bone structures, weak tendons. No amount of training and meat (muscle) will allow those structures to function at the highest or “above average” levels.
What? ALL trainers have “weak tendons” until they are trained to get stronger. That is one of the effects of lifting heavy weights. Small joints??? Like Flex Wheeler and other pros who are KNOWN for their small joints? Mind you, as someone with a very large background in biology, could you explain to me what the hell you mean by “thin bone structure”? I had “thin bone structure” as well…WHEN I WAS VERY THIN.
There probably about as many true “hardgainers” in the world as there are Ronnie Colemans. It is amazing that all of them apparently found this website, somehow know they are tragically genetically inclined…yet won’t find a fucking new hobby so we don’t have to hear about what they can’t do all of the time.[/quote]
No. Your bones and joints don’t grow when you gain weight. Small wrists, knees, ankles, elbows = massive disadvantage in moving heavy things regardless of your muscle mass.
Also muscle mass is proportionate to one’s above mentioned structures. It’s simple common sense and nature’s law. A 6 inch wrist can’t have huge arms. (they might be relatively big and developed and look good, but not all-around big)
Also look at beginners. Among those that enter the gym without earlier training experience , those that have significantly naturally more muscle mass than the others also have big joints, wrists, ankles, etc.
(I’m talking about regular people, not 1% of genetically gifted exceptions, etc.)
[quote]Thy. wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Thy. wrote:
Kanada wrote:
i take issue with your claims of below average genetics. in my limited time working out, and playin the mentor to other people who had never weight trained before, there is no such thing as below average genetics. just intelligent training
“below average genetics” : small joints, thin bone structures, weak tendons. No amount of training and meat (muscle) will allow those structures to function at the highest or “above average” levels.
What? ALL trainers have “weak tendons” until they are trained to get stronger. That is one of the effects of lifting heavy weights. Small joints??? Like Flex Wheeler and other pros who are KNOWN for their small joints? Mind you, as someone with a very large background in biology, could you explain to me what the hell you mean by “thin bone structure”? I had “thin bone structure” as well…WHEN I WAS VERY THIN.
There probably about as many true “hardgainers” in the world as there are Ronnie Colemans. It is amazing that all of them apparently found this website, somehow know they are tragically genetically inclined…yet won’t find a fucking new hobby so we don’t have to hear about what they can’t do all of the time.
No. Your bones and joints don’t grow when you gain weight. Small wrists, knees, ankles, elbows = massive disadvantage in moving heavy things regardless of your muscle mass. [/quote] Relevant only if you plan to crack the highest powerlifting records. And yes, tendons do adapt, so do bones (at the very least in density… Shit, even over here the medical community is finally catching on to the effect of actual weight training on bone health and strength vs. the crap they used to recommend… I.e. “exercise ala running will improve bone health”… Obviously that did jackshit for older people in danger of osteoporosis, but now we’re finally making headway there).
[quote]
Also muscle mass is proportionate to one’s above mentioned structures. It’s simple common sense and nature’s law[/quote] Did nature tell you that? I don’t think she’s been able to do much beyond harassing them pesky humans with floods and the like lately… [quote]. A 6 inch wrist can’t have huge arms. (they might be relatively big and developed and look good, but not all-around big) [/quote] Your wrist will not stay at 6 inches, unless you’re doing something wrong. Most “aesthetic” looking bodybuilders, natural and otherwise, gifted and non-gifted, have small joints and still manage to build 18+ (lean) inch arms. And many of those guys could probably do even bother if they would not get side-tracked with today’s flood of bullshit posing as “information/science”. [quote]
Also look at beginners. Among those that enter the gym without earlier training experience , those that have significantly naturally more muscle mass than the others also have big joints, wrists, ankles, etc.
[/quote] Really? Always? You know this… How?
And if they do… So…? Sure there is genetic variety… But because Joe Husky started out at 200 lbs at 5’10 rather than Dick Small’s 120 doesn’t mean that Dick can’t build 20 inch arms anyway.
Plus, Dick starts out underweight and likely in worse/weakened skeletal condition if he spent his youth sitting in front of a PC (sound familiar to some here?), yet he’s likely going to gain 50-80 pounds within his first year or year and a half if he does things right while Joe will maybe manage 20-30 or so… Joe’s system started out “healthy” and always had a decent food-supply available to him, contrary to Dick’s case… Dick’s system is going to compensate quickly once neat amounts of food and the right stimulus are in constant supply.
Joe may end up winning major shows eventually, contrary to Dick… But Dick can still end up at 240+ lbs with 19+ inch arms if he does things right.
The human body tends to ADAPT to things… That’s how a skinny computer nerd can turn into a pretty big bodybuilder or powerlifter or whatever… [quote]
(I’m talking about regular people, not 1% of genetically gifted exceptions, etc.)[/quote]
Are you Casey Butt’s alternative account?
Most big guys here (average height) started with wrists of about 6 inches or 6.5 or so if I’m not mistaken…
And wrists thickening up (no idea about ankles, never measured mine, but I’d guess they do, too) over the course of ones’ training career is a totally common ocurrance… They won’t grow three inches, but about one seems to happen generally… And now you have 7-7.5 inch wrists, that’s quite a bit better than what you started out with…
Shit, if you read “powerlifter X has 8 inch wrists”… How do you know what his wrist size was before he started training? Most of those are current measurements, taken after the guy has already worked his way up to benching 500+ raw or 700 in a shirt or whatever.
You completely dismiss adaption to exercise stimulus here.
If I go from benching 135 to 500+, my muscles aren’t the only thing that adapts, otherwise I’d tear my tricep, pec and delt -tendons at 225 already… And my forearms would snap in half at 315, my hands go to hell 355…
As for the bullshit of "if I start out with 6 inch wrists, I can only at most have 16.5 inch arms lean… I actually think that whomever came up with that crap just misread some article about when the beginner stage ends, but that’s just me.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Thy. wrote:
Kanada wrote:
i take issue with your claims of below average genetics. in my limited time working out, and playin the mentor to other people who had never weight trained before, there is no such thing as below average genetics. just intelligent training
“below average genetics” : small joints, thin bone structures, weak tendons, etc. No amount of training and meat (muscle) will allow those structures to function at the highest or “above average” levels.
That describes at least half, if not more, of the guys on this site who are now the biggest and strongest here as they started out back in the day.
Hm.
Thin wrists? Yeah, I have to use wrist-wraps on some exercises… Just like even the most thick-wristed powerlifters have to on occasion. And my wrists have grown about an inch or perhaps a little more by now and that happened AFTER I hit 20 y.o. probably due to tendon thickening/bone strengthening from exercise demands or whatever.
Thin joints? Great, you may not end up squatting 800+ raw, but you’ll look great as a bodybuilder.
Weak tendons? They’ll become stronger along with the rest of you in time, if you force them to.
Sure, there are some exercises I can’t do (traditional skullcrushers, palms-facing DB extensions, french presses) due to some structural/genetic issues (no, no tendonitis present), but oh well, there are plenty of great, if not better, alternatives.
[/quote]
CC you have previously recommended dead stop extensions (thank you) for people can’t do skull crushers. can you please explain form and technique? what I have been doing is exploding the ez bar up keeping my upper arms just a few degrees of being vertical and then dropping the bar back behind my head.
Cephalic_Carnage : I have about a 6 inch wrist and mostly I see the same size (or even larger) on girls, so no way in hell most of the big guys here have 6 inch wrists.
And your wrist doesn’t grow from training once your skeleton is formed. The same as you can’t make your shoulders wider. (not delts, the bones)
BTW, I was talking mostly about strength. But yes I also think that potential maximum muscle mass can be easily guessed looking at one’s wrists, ankes, elbows, knees in 99% of cases.
[quote]montez wrote:
CC you have previously recommended dead stop extensions (thank you) for people can’t do skull crushers. can you please explain form and technique? what I have been doing is exploding the ez bar up keeping my upper arms just a few degrees of being vertical and then dropping the bar back behind my head.
[/quote]
Jason Wojo lying tricep extensions - YouTube ← Jason doing them.
So yeah, on bench or floor, lower bar behind head, dead stop on the floor, then tighten everything up a split second before you explode the bar up, stop the ascend with upper arms at an incline rather than perp. to the floor, and you don’t necessarily need to lock out, just learn how to tense your tris fully just shy of lockout if you want.
Then lower back to the floor under control… Don’t just drop it though. It’s not an olympic lift 
Another alternative are PJR’s… You can do them with an EZ bar if you have trouble using a single DB (hard on the hands with the heavier ones in my case, mostly because I have very small hands/short fingers… Come to think of it, my short fingers etc have been far more of a hassle than my thin joints…)…
Basically do them like the dead stops off the floor/bench, but do it so that you can lower the bar further behind your head, making it a pullover+extension hybrid (scapulae retracted etc though, don’t make it a lat pullover)… I find that the seat pad in front of the local low-pulley station (the one you’d normally use for seated rows) works perfectly for these… In my case it’s just high enough of the ground to allow my plenty of ROM without having to get the bar into position in an awkward manner, I can just reach down a little further and take it off the floor.
You obviously don’t do a dead stop with these, and don’t go super-heavy… Great long-head movement (narrow grip on the EZ bar) and in my case it does not affect my elbows at all (I’d still use neoprene sleeves or so as a precaution, of cause… No reason to wait until you’ve actually acquired some nasty case of tendonitis if you can mostly avoid it entirely that way).
[quote]Thy. wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage : I have about a 6 inch wrist[/quote] That explains your stance perfectly… Did you happen to stumble across casey butt’s calculator or some hardgainer-writings or some such? Do yourself a favor and stop worrying about your wrist size. [quote] and mostly I see the same size (or even larger) on girls, so no way in hell most of the big guys here have 6 inch wrists.
[/quote] I said most of us started out with 6 inch wrists. And no, not all of us started training before we turned 18-20 either… [quote]
And your wrist doesn’t grow from training once your skeleton is formed. The same as you can’t make your shoulders wider. (not delts, the bones)
[/quote] The wrist does indeed grow.
No, your shoulder (bone) structure as such won’t. However, wrists do certainly adapt via bone-strength and tendon strength. Your tendons and bones cannot stay at their “default” strength while you are getting drastically stronger.
[quote]
BTW, I was talking mostly about strength[/quote] No. You mentioned arm size specifically. [quote]. But yes I also think that potential muscle mass can be easily guessed looking at one’s wrists, ankes, elbows, knees in 99% of cases.[/quote] You think so… Really… What makes you think that you are right? Lots of beginners “think” whatever the last article they read said.
I’m not trying to be an ass here, but people usually make ridiculous assumptions about topics they don’t really know much about.
Chances are that you will NEVER EVER even get close to your “genetic potential”. Other issues (necessary food intake, stupidity etc…) will likely prevent that and present the more “real life” limits.
Serious trainees will be able to better overcome these than your average 16 year old who just read all this crap about ankle and wrist size and is now obsessing over such unimportant and rather flawed “science”.
Do you really believe that all your measurements will stay exactly the same, except for your muscle-size as you get stronger? That would basically mean that your starting tendon-strength would pretty much be the ultimate limit in strength levels that you can achieve… I.e. once your muscles are “as strong” as your tendons, that’s it?
And that someone who starts with 6 inch wrists at 5’10, age 20 can, say, never bench 405+ ?
Beyond ridiculous. That’s looking at reality and simply dismissing it because doing otherwise would render your excuse invalid.
Might want to take up sewing or something… And if you happen to be under 20 and you have a hard time gaining size/strength, it does tend to become much easier once you’re out of puberty and won’t have to stuff your face with everything in sight anymore… Plus around then most people kind of wake up and get their shit together, at least partially, and suddenly realize that their lifestyle is about as conductive to muscle-gain as getting estrogen treatment.
Man, I was trying to find Dante’s old shirtless flexing pic where he was 137 lbs or so with tiny joints etc and compare that to what he looks like now, but can’t remember which thread on IM that was posted in…
Where’s ScottM when you need him 
Interesting that this wrist topic has come up. When I started a year ago I could comfortably touch my thumb/middle finger around my wrist. When I try it now, there’s about a 5 mil gap. Not that I’ve bothered caring about it and measuring. Just this discussion reminded me of it.
And since we’re on topic of TBT, I did start that way myself, and sure it was fine but you quickly realise how much more you can get out of splits.
Personally I’d only do TBT now if I wanted weight loss or if I’m on holidays somewhere, or maybe for a deload week.
Got nothing else to add that hasn’t been said already 
Hey C_C,
What’s this guy’s potential?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Man, I was trying to find Dante’s old shirtless flexing pic where he was 137 lbs or so with tiny joints etc and compare that to what he looks like now, but can’t remember which thread on IM that was posted in…
Where’s ScottM when you need him
[/quote]
They’ll just say he’s too fat and can’t be used as any example of anything, or they’ll mumble about ‘assistance.’
[quote]Mad_Duck wrote:
Hey C_C,
What’s this guy’s potential?[/quote]
That dude needs to talk to NDucedStrength98 right away…
(Some people will not get that joke I fear.)
Your bones can and most certainly will grow with weight training. It’s known as Wolff’s Law. The bones are exposed to varying levels of stress, and remodel themselves to be bigger and stronger over time.
Your entire skeleton is actually remodeled by your body every couple of years - the human body is constantly changing and adapting. It is a similar method to muscle hypertrophy, actually. Microfractures in the bone appear, and new bone is laid down to seal up those cracks - resulting in a bigger, thicker, and stronger bone.
As for the original topic, the usual type of full body routines are good for teaching rank beginners how to do the lifts, but fairly useless for bodybuilding. Think about it for a second. If TBT worked so well for bodybuilders, why would they ever have moved away from it in the first place?
If split routines were inferior for gaining mass, why does 99.99% of the bodybuilding and powerlifting community them?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Mad_Duck wrote:
Hey C_C,
What’s this guy’s potential?
That dude needs to talk to NDucedStrength98 right away…
(Some people will not get that joke I fear.)[/quote]
;')
(it was either this or a full-retard pic.(not for you, but ND.))
To many haters here, to be honest, if i had looked like that at 14/ 15 i would have been pleased with myself too!! 18/19 maybe less so ?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Thy. wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage : I have about a 6 inch wrist That explains your stance perfectly… Did you happen to stumble across casey butt’s calculator or some hardgainer-writings or some such? Do yourself a favor and stop worrying about your wrist size. and mostly I see the same size (or even larger) on girls, so no way in hell most of the big guys here have 6 inch wrists.
I said most of us started out with 6 inch wrists. And no, not all of us started training before we turned 18-20 either…
And your wrist doesn’t grow from training once your skeleton is formed. The same as you can’t make your shoulders wider. (not delts, the bones)
The wrist does indeed grow.
No, your shoulder (bone) structure as such won’t. However, wrists do certainly adapt via bone-strength and tendon strength. Your tendons and bones cannot stay at their “default” strength while you are getting drastically stronger.
BTW, I was talking mostly about strength No. You mentioned arm size specifically. . But yes I also think that potential muscle mass can be easily guessed looking at one’s wrists, ankes, elbows, knees in 99% of cases. You think so… Really… What makes you think that you are right? Lots of beginners “think” whatever the last article they read said.
I’m not trying to be an ass here, but people usually make ridiculous assumptions about topics they don’t really know much about.
Chances are that you will NEVER EVER even get close to your “genetic potential”. Other issues (necessary food intake, stupidity etc…) will likely prevent that and present the more “real life” limits.
Serious trainees will be able to better overcome these than your average 16 year old who just read all this crap about ankle and wrist size and is now obsessing over such unimportant and rather flawed “science”.
Do you really believe that all your measurements will stay exactly the same, except for your muscle-size as you get stronger? That would basically mean that your starting tendon-strength would pretty much be the ultimate limit in strength levels that you can achieve… I.e. once your muscles are “as strong” as your tendons, that’s it?
And that someone who starts with 6 inch wrists at 5’10, age 20 can, say, never bench 405+ ?
Beyond ridiculous. That’s looking at reality and simply dismissing it because doing otherwise would render your excuse invalid.
Might want to take up sewing or something… And if you happen to be under 20 and you have a hard time gaining size/strength, it does tend to become much easier once you’re out of puberty and won’t have to stuff your face with everything in sight anymore… Plus around then most people kind of wake up and get their shit together, at least partially, and suddenly realize that their lifestyle is about as conductive to muscle-gain as getting estrogen treatment.
Man, I was trying to find Dante’s old shirtless flexing pic where he was 137 lbs or so with tiny joints etc and compare that to what he looks like now, but can’t remember which thread on IM that was posted in…
Where’s ScottM when you need him
[/quote]
There’s no point in arguing really. It’s understandable that people are always blinded by their own success to see other’s disadvantages. They automatically assume that another person doesn’t work as hard, doesn’t put as much of an effort. Perfectly basic human nature.
It’s not relevant to the weight training either. Every person is either good at something or not. If he’s not, no amount of practice will put him on the level of the person that’s good at it from the start.
For example, when I started at my university, I was really good at the main subject. It came naturally to me and many people were really bad at it. I laughed at them and thought “why the hell would they take this profession”. But as I grew a little older I realised : they practice much harder than me, they really try, it’s just that this is not their domain.
So don’t make automatic conclusions about me because I write this. You don’t know me and don’t know how I train. I really put my best in this thing. I think about it all the time (even to the point where I think it’s not right, I’ve got to think about actual life more). I deadlift till I’m barely conscious. I try to eat a lot, but once I do that, my weak stomach doesn’t take it. I go throw out and it’s fucked up for several days and I eat even less than before. No, this muscle-building thing is not for me. My body is giving me every signal it got about this. But I try…