Full Body 3 x / Week

[quote]azza wrote:
Now it seems everyone is going down the fullbody/ HIt style of training, because we have finally realised that the muscle mags pump out bull to sell supplements. most of the routines you guys are going to do are in line with HIT, Brawn and the like. If you find 3x week doesn’t work as well as you’d like train twice a week.[/quote]

Not everyone is following the HIT style of training! Some of us prefer CW’s methods of using different exercises and parameters for each workout, but still using full-body routines.

I have tried HST in the past, and it just didn’t work for me. However, CW’s methods work great.

So it’s all about finding what works best for you!

[quote]Bri Hildebrandt wrote:
20 min cardio, 30 sec hard, 30 sec very easy before hand on Days 1 and 2. Usually skipping, bike, and/or running.

Weights

  1. Ab movement
  2. Shoulder Press variation
  3. Shrug or another isolation shoulder movement.
  4. Back Row variation
  5. Chin variation
  6. Chest press variation
  7. Biceps curl variation
  8. Triceps movement variation
  9. Deadlift variation
  10. Quad dominant variation
  11. Calf raise movement
    Followed by 10 min of stretching. The weights usually take about 55 min.
    Brian Hildebrandt[/quote]

Bri-

Your diet sounds pretty solid, especially since you are gaining weight. However, I would check a couple items in your workout routine. Doing what sounds like HIIT BEFORE lifting is generally a BIG mistake when trying to gain mass. Everyone is different, so if this works best for you, you can tell me to shut up. But, for maybe 95% of lifters, cardio should be totally avoided when concentrating on mass gains. If any at all is done, it should be done on days OPPOSITE lifting (for you that’s Tues, Thur, Sat, Sun), and then should be low to medium intensity.

As far as the body parts you hit each day, again to each their own. However, I just posted on this - that I think doing isolation exercises (ie, bicep curls, tricep ext, etc) is a BIG mistake with total body training, 3Xweek. You would be actually working your arms 6 times a week, because you of course work them with chest and back movements (or you should be). I see this as a gross over-training with total body workouts as frequent as 3xweek.

Maybe with your 2xweek schedule you could sneak away with it. But, your chest and back movements should be intense enough that you get a decent arm workout when performing them. As long as the chest and back workouts are with heavy compound bar movements - choosing barbell bench press over machine pec deck for example - your arms don’t need direct work!

TopSirloin

azza:

I agree in part; Mike Mentzer was a very “clever” individual. However, stating that you need only one set to failure seemed to push the envelope a bit to far for me.

How did Mentzer originally develop his outstanding physique? He did the standard multiple set program. When he wanted to strike out on his own as a strength coach guru he pushed another formula. You have to be unique to get the attention. It’s more about marketing than reality.

Don’t get me wrong, I think you can maintain your physique with a one, or two sets to failure method. However, to improve I think it has been proven that Mentzer and his mentor Arthur Jones were simply wrong!

[quote]TopSirloin wrote:
Bri-

Your diet sounds pretty solid, especially since you are gaining weight. However, I would check a couple items in your workout routine. Doing what sounds like HIIT BEFORE lifting is generally a BIG mistake when trying to gain mass. Everyone is different, so if this works best for you, you can tell me to shut up. But, for maybe 95% of lifters, cardio should be totally avoided when concentrating on mass gains. If any at all is done, it should be done on days OPPOSITE lifting (for you that’s Tues, Thur, Sat, Sun), and then should be low to medium intensity.

As far as the body parts you hit each day, again to each their own. However, I just posted on this - that I think doing isolation exercises (ie, bicep curls, tricep ext, etc) is a BIG mistake with total body training, 3Xweek. You would be actually working your arms 6 times a week, because you of course work them with chest and back movements (or you should be). I see this as a gross over-training with total body workouts as frequent as 3xweek.

Maybe with your 2xweek schedule you could sneak away with it. But, your chest and back movements should be intense enough that you get a decent arm workout when performing them. As long as the chest and back workouts are with heavy compound bar movements - choosing barbell bench press over machine pec deck for example - your arms don’t need direct work!

TopSirloin[/quote]

Thanks for the critique TopSirloin.

I use the cardio mainly as GPP. I don’t go too intense. It’s basically tempo training that I kept up with since retiring from track and field. It’s my top priority as well, so I put it first in my training. I like to be athletic first off, then look good second so it works for me. That’s also why I do abs, shoulders, traps, and back at the beginning of my workout in that order… It’s in order of importance that I want to prioritize my energy towards.

I enjoy working out 3 times a week. 6 times is a little too much. I have other obligations in my life and the 3 times a week works better for me. I also find that doing GPP on off days ramps up my metabolism a little too much which makes it harder to gain mass. I was blessed with a very good metabolism. I gain muscle, and lose fat very easily. I find when I do too much work my metabolism skyrockets, and I’m uncomfortable with an insatiable appetite. I don’t like to be eating 6000 kcal a day for maintenance! I have an easy gainer, mesomorph body type. The reason I was at 220lbs before was mostly because I had met my body transformation goals. I didn’t want to get any bigger or leaner so I was pretty much just doing maintenance stuff. I didn’t experiment too much with different workout programs because I didn’t have to. It was a lack of necessity type of thing. Just until recently I decided to push the envelope a little bit and try and gain an extra 10 pounds. I’m sure I could go much higher at 8% bf if I worked a little harder at it, and experimented more.

The added arm work is because I find it makes a difference with respect to size. I had done no arm work for years when I was in track and my arms were noticably smaller. Once I added direct arm work afterwards they grew another inch/inch and a half so it is something I felt I needed. I was also doing full body workouts at that time, but only once or twice a week. I was trying to keep hypertrophy down to a minimum since I was a little over-muscular for my respective sport(decathlon).

I feel I need some isolation work. If all I do is compound exercises I find my body gets a little too blocky. The isolation exercises add a little refinement to my physique. Hey, I’m vain!

Sirloin, an addendum to my last post.

For the last while I had been working out only twice a week for maintenance, and to keep my appetite down.

I’m not sure if anyone else is like this, but when I workout 4 or 5 times a week my appetite/metabolism gets so out of control for maintenance that I find it very hard to deal with. Even after polishing off a 1500 kcal meal I’d still be hungry. It’s not a good feeling when I can never get a feeling of satiety. I used to go through 2 litres of olive oil a week in order to try and curb my appetite. I’m not sure about the kcal in that much olive oil but I’m sure it’s pretty damn high.

Sorry, I may sound like an ass. I’m sure a lot of people would love a metabolism like that but on the extreme end it’s not very fun.

Ok, I just calculated the olive oil kcal per week. It’s about 16500 kcal a week, or 2350 kcal a day in olive oil alone. That’s not counting the other fat in my diet which would probably put me close to 3000 kcal a day altogether.

Bri-

That’s cool - like I said, “if” if works for you (which it does) than it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks.

You have a VERY FAST metabolism - jeezus, I would love to switch spots with you for just one day! I’m almost totally opposite, I can only handle 3000-3500 cals before I start packing on the fat. At 6 foot, 240, ~12-13% bodyfat, that’s not a lot of calories. Thank God I don’t have much of an appetite - I eat just a bit more than my fiance!

As far as the workouts, I just mentioned the 6 times a week when referring to your arm training. Since you hit your arms with compound movements and then you do isolations on top of that, you are stressing them 6 times a week. Basically doing two-a-days 3X week with your arms. But, like you said that works for you.

Personally, I’ve been on ABBH. On the light lower day, just holding the bar as I do Romanian DL’s (stiff legs) was giving me an arm pump. When I would return a bar or dumbbell to the rack and have to slightly curl it, it felt like I just got done curling… and it was 48 hours after the heavy upper day! Meaning, just benches and pull-ups are more than enough arm work for me. My arms are barely recovered from the heavy upper day when I hit the light upper 4 days later. Probably because I don’t eat enough protein. But, because of my small appetite, I can’t seem to get in more than 230-260 grams per day. I’m still seeing gains though, so it looks like only getting 1 gram/pound works for me.

C-ya

TopSirloin

TopSirloin,

Actually what you said before got me thinking lately. I think you brought up some valid points but I was unwilling to hear them at the moment. I was kinda married to my new workout program and was probably rationalizing towards it.

A number of things I’ve noticed lately in terms of my workouts

  1. I don’t seem to be getting that jacked feeling anymore. I’m getting poor pumps, and less veiny. This seems to have occured since I started incorporating more cardio/GPP/HIIT in to my workouts the last 6 months or so.

  2. My arms don’t seem to be improving. It may be possible they are getting overtrained.

3 My appetite is skyrocketing once more, as in the last two weeks.

I find when I’m doing more cardio/GPP, I tend to not get as great pumps. I feel softer in general as well. My muscles feel kinda deflated and not very full, even on off days. I’m pretty sure my bodyfat isn’t any different though. I’m still cut, just less full. I’m not sure if my cardio is too intense or if it’s dipping in to my recovery, but it is an observation I’ve made. It’s not that much, only 20min. 3 times a week, but never the less it seems to impact my muscle gains. As you said before, the fact that I do it at the beginning of my workouts may compound it further.

The best I’ve looked is when I haven’t done any cardio at all. I look a lot harder, fuller, and more veiny. This seems to go against what a lot of other people experience. I know I am definitely more fast twitch oriented so this may have something to do with it.

I was thinking about dropping cardio/GPP, direct arm work, and possibly dropping the endurance day(25 reps) as well. Before the last 2 weeks I had been only working out 2 days a week. Working out less days per week seems to help reduce my appetite and metabolism, which seems to allow me to hold muscle easier. When my metabolism is too high it makes it much harder to maintain a positive energy balance.

One good thing is I’m at 227lbs now. I’m still gaining with no visible change in bf%. It’s strange though, I’ve looked much bigger visually at 220lbs than I do now. I’m thinking of dropping the cardio as well to see if I regain that full and veiny look.

Any further suggestions? I’d like to do some GPP in some form as I think it’s important but I don’t want it to eat in to my physique now. I seemed to have a change of priorities lately. Perhaps my bodybuilding goals are more important than my athletic goals after all.

For a better program I was thinking more along the lines of CW’s new full body program but dropping the endurance day, so I’m only working out twice a week. What do you think?

I’m just checking back here to update everyone on my progress with the full body workouts 3x/week.

It’s been 3 and a half weeks, and I’ve already gained 8 pounds! I’m pretty amazed especially since I haven’t really been eating an extraordinary amount of food. I’m eating over maintenance I’m sure, but not stuffing myself either. I don’t count my calories, but I’d imagine I’m eating an extra 500kcal or so. Perhaps more, that’s a little over 2 pounds a week so I’d estimate it would have to be an extra 1000kcal a day to accomplish this.

To reiterate what I said earlier, I bumped up my protein and carbs to about 300 grams a day, from about 225. I may have lowered my fat intake a smidgen, just to make sure I was gaining more lean mass.

I didn’t take any prohormones, or creatine, so none of this weight is artificially induced. Just taking some basic vitamins and minerals. Nothing different from before.

The kicker is, I don’t think my bodyfat has really changed. I still have quite visible lower abs, and my belt notch stayed the same so it seems it was all muscle that I put on, save maybe a pound. To stay at the same bf% I’d have to gain a proportionate amount of fat.

So how’s everyone else doing? Any positive results?

p.s. I’ve tried eating this amount before on other programs but always seemed to gain much more fat before, so I never pushed it.

Whad-up Bri-

I just read your last couple posts - glad things are looking good for you. I think dropping the HIIT has helped you. You were cutting into your glycogen stores, so your weight workouts were negatively affected. This doesn’t really affect recovery, since you can slam a PWO shake. But, when going for pure mass, you hit it on the head - just lift, eat, and rest!

I am hitting the TBT for the next 3 weeks. I’m going to alternate it with the ABBH I back and forth for several cycles. I have gained some SERIOUS beef! Unfortunately, my bodyfat has gone up, but as I have explained, I have a slower metabolism for my size. So, in order to eat enough cals to grow, I almost have no choice but to gain extra BF. I have tried to minimize it though, by going easy on the carbs during the day. My situation is so unique though (as you know) because I have hypoglycemia to combat AS WELL as a slower metabolic rate! This sucks because I can’t cut out carbs completely because I will have no energy. Thus, why I have to gain some BF.

Anyway, I have put on nearly 20 pounds in about 10 weeks! I have to confess, I have done two cycles of M1T and creatine. But, I was at a size plateau. Not to mention that gains from M1T can be almost totally retained with the right diet and post-cycle supps. So, I probably gained 5-6 pounds of fat and 14-15 pounds of USDA choice “top sirloin”. Sorry, that was cheezy, but I couldn’t resist! That put’s my weight at 245, at an estimated 15% BF. Not lean, but not very fat either.

Also, you mentioned Bri that you “only” were doing 20 min of HIIT and GPP. If done at a high enough intensity, 300-400+ cals can be burned in that amount of time! That’s why I think your muscles were so deflated. If you must still hit some HIIT and or GPP, do it on off-lifting days and you’ll just have to eat like a titan horse to keep from impacting your mass gains.

Later,

TopSirloin

Great progress Top Sirloin. 20 pounds in that time frame is quite the accomplishment, irregardless of the creatine, and M1T. It’s quite the motivator when you make gains that quickly as well. It felt great to finally see 230 lbs on the scale, for a goal I set for myself just 3 and half weeks ago.

I think I may just sit at this weight for the next while. I like to rehab my back a little further, and develop more power/athletism at this weight. We’ll see. Having got to 230 so quickly it almost makes me want to push the envelope even further, but I’m not sure if I want to get much bigger. I enjoy playing volleyball and basketball, and the extra weight I’m sure will start doing more harm than good in that regard.

I know what you mean regarding hypoglycemia and cutting carbs. That’s why it’s tough when my metabolism skyrockets. It basically exacerbates my hypoglycemia and drives down my blood sugar much quicker. That’s the most uncomfortable part of it.

I seem to have it more under control now. After I made some adjustments with some supplements, coffee, and diet it seems to be getting better but I’m not out of the woods yet.

Dropping the interval work seems to have improved my recovery. Lately I’ve been doing 20-30min. of low intensity cardio (easy bike and fast walking) and it seems to be making a difference.

I’m not getting the crazy pumps I used to get but am wondering if it may be from my body being accustomed to the rep ranges I usually use.

For the last few years I’ve mainly worked in the 3-5 rep range, and 15 rep range, with not much else so I’m thinking a switch may be in order. I’m thinking of adding some singles at a 3RM, and some 10 rep sets for hypertrophy, for the next little bit. I’ll see if that brings a shock to my system. I’ve always been good with rotating my exercises, so I don’t think I have any problems there. I love that feeling of being jacked/pumped during and after my workout. The famous Arnold quote is quite true in that regard.

King of the steaks,

I’m going to add some antagonist supersets as well to my new regimand. We’ll see how that goes. That’ll switch things up even further.

Bri, I had the same thing happen to me when I incorporated HIIT into my routine. I was still cut but i looked flat and depleted. HWen i stopped doing HIIT i quickly went back to my normal, veiny, full, self. Maybe you should try a lower intensity type of cardio.

Jake,

Good point. I just started low intensity cardio last week. I’ll see how it goes.

Guys,

Reading through your posts and glad to see that you are kicking so much ass. I have lifted 4 times in the last 3 weeks, which, when you do the math, is absolutely not equal to FB 3x/week. Three weeks ago I got in 2 days as scheduled due to vacationing. Two weeks ago I got in 2 days as scheduled due to same vacation. Last week I spent the ENTIRE week in the hospital with some bacterial infection / viral infection / the doctors still don’t know WTF was wrong with me. So that was probably my longest gym hiatus in a year or so … I am ready to go. I got a few weeks of experimenting around with exercises / reps / weights / rest / etc and am ready to put it to use. I am going back tonight while keeping in mind that I did just take a week off. I’ll go with 5 sets of 3 and my standard movements with a more thorough warmup and while dropping the work set weight ~ 10% for safety’s sake.

Any suggestions?

BFG

I decided to only work out twice a week, and decided to forgo the endurance day. So basically I just have a strength day and hypertrophy day per week. I play in a competitive volleyball league on tues nights for two hours so the repeated jumping really tends to hammer my CNS. I also need the extra time to give my back a break. It’s not the greatest and I need all the off time I can get.

So, if you can only get in two workouts a week you’ll probably not be that bad off. You’re still working every muscle group twice a week right? That’s good in itself.

BFG, are you doing any cardio, changing your diet, or taking any special supps? Or are you going to just leave off where you were on your original plan about a month ago?

Personally I found increasing my protein and carb intake really made a difference. I think it was a much more anabolic stimulus than I was used to, so I required more protein to support my gains.

And by the way, the changing of my rep ranges from 5 and 15, to 1 and 10 are really making a big difference this last week. I can tell there’s some kind of metabolic change going on and my muscles are definitely fuller, and I’m getting leaner as well. Change is good!

I am basically picking up where I left off. Last night I did 3x3 instead of 5x3 and dropped the weight between 5% and 10% depending on the lift.

Wow I must have been pretty sick last week. I felt very weak. Squatting and pressing sucked ass. Rowing and pulling were actually ok.

I used to do 10 minutes of intervals (10 minutes work + 5 minutes rest = 15 minutes) prior but am now doing 5 minutes before and then 5 minutes after.

“OFF” days (Tues/Thur/Sat) are including intervals on the order of 10 - 20 minutes and sometimes abs / calve work.

“OFF” OFF days (Sun) involve watching football.

No supplements other than creatine and the standard nutritional aids (PWO drink, protein powder, muscle milk, meal replacements). I am trying to eat more regular food and more calories in general so I can put on some size with the new FB 3x / week.

People at work are telling me that I look like I have lost weight. This sucks. I feel like snorting creatine and getting a muscle milk I.V. going for the next couple of weeks.

BFG

Guys,

Let us know how youre getting on with this type of training…