Front Squatting in Chucks?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
1

I was wondering if there are any experienced front squatters who front squat in chuck taylors?

One thing I’ve noticed when doing front squats is that when I try to really sink low with it my back inevitably rounds slightly at the bottom. I’ve never gotten any pain from this, but this could be because I haven’t gotten to heavier weights front squatting yet (3-4 plates.)

I was thinking this could possibly be because:

A.) I generally front squat in my chucks, which have a very low sole. I have heard that having a slight heel to front squats makes the movement much easier.

B.) Perhaps I am simply going too low? While I would like to work the movement as low as I can to transfer over to my other activities, if stopping higher would correct this I guess I will.

Is there anybody who can comfortable front squat low in their chucks or other flat soled shoes? Any advice? I believe I am front squatting correctly otherwise, although any links would also be helpful ( I sometimes get conflicted on whether I initiate the movement by pushing my hips back or as I usually do simply trying to sit straight down)

2

[quote]Naphta wrote:
I was wondering if there are any experienced front squatters who front squat in chuck taylors?

One thing I’ve noticed when doing front squats is that when I try to really sink low with it my back inevitably rounds slightly at the bottom. I’ve never gotten any pain from this, but this could be because I haven’t gotten to heavier weights front squatting yet (3-4 plates.)

I was thinking this could possibly be because:

A.) I generally front squat in my chucks, which have a very low sole. I have heard that having a slight heel to front squats makes the movement much easier.

B.) Perhaps I am simply going too low? While I would like to work the movement as low as I can to transfer over to my other activities, if stopping higher would correct this I guess I will.

Is there anybody who can comfortable front squat low in their chucks or other flat soled shoes? Any advice? I believe I am front squatting correctly otherwise, although any links would also be helpful ( I sometimes get conflicted on whether I initiate the movement by pushing my hips back or as I usually do simply trying to sit straight down)
[/quote]

If you are rounding your back, you are going too low for your flexibility. What a heel in an olympic shoe does is gives you ‘fake’ ankle flexibility; it allows your knees to come out further over your toes with your heels still down on the ground, which allows you to stay more upright. This, in turn, makes it so that your hips and shoulders are more over your base, which decreases torque on the back and decreases the stretch on your glutes/hamstrings. If your hips are tucking, its probably because you have to lean forward since you can’t stay as upright due to less ankle flexibility. Stretch those calves and achilles tendons! More hamstring/glute flexibility might help too, but if you aren’t getting your knees out past your toes, a full front squat will be difficult for most.

As far as the weight goes… heavy for you means near your max. 3-4 plates doesn’t really mean anything as that might be exceedingly light for someone else. Heavy, with regard to back injury, really refers to weight that taxes your muscles enough that they are in danger of not protecting your back anymore. Don’t get stuck on plate numbers… if you can only front squat 275, 250 is a heavy lift and I would be scared to see you rolling your back on it. On the other hand, if you can squat 275, you could probably use really bad form at 135 and not be in much danger.

In general, shoot for better form, don’t worry about heavy or not. Good form now means less injury later.

3

[quote]Dr. Manhattan wrote:

[quote]Naphta wrote:
I was wondering if there are any experienced front squatters who front squat in chuck taylors?

One thing I’ve noticed when doing front squats is that when I try to really sink low with it my back inevitably rounds slightly at the bottom. I’ve never gotten any pain from this, but this could be because I haven’t gotten to heavier weights front squatting yet (3-4 plates.)

I was thinking this could possibly be because:

A.) I generally front squat in my chucks, which have a very low sole. I have heard that having a slight heel to front squats makes the movement much easier.

B.) Perhaps I am simply going too low? While I would like to work the movement as low as I can to transfer over to my other activities, if stopping higher would correct this I guess I will.

Is there anybody who can comfortable front squat low in their chucks or other flat soled shoes? Any advice? I believe I am front squatting correctly otherwise, although any links would also be helpful ( I sometimes get conflicted on whether I initiate the movement by pushing my hips back or as I usually do simply trying to sit straight down)
[/quote]

If you are rounding your back, you are going too low for your flexibility. What a heel in an olympic shoe does is gives you ‘fake’ ankle flexibility; it allows your knees to come out further over your toes with your heels still down on the ground, which allows you to stay more upright. This, in turn, makes it so that your hips and shoulders are more over your base, which decreases torque on the back and decreases the stretch on your glutes/hamstrings. If your hips are tucking, its probably because you have to lean forward since you can’t stay as upright due to less ankle flexibility. Stretch those calves and achilles tendons! More hamstring/glute flexibility might help too, but if you aren’t getting your knees out past your toes, a full front squat will be difficult for most.

As far as the weight goes… heavy for you means near your max. 3-4 plates doesn’t really mean anything as that might be exceedingly light for someone else. Heavy, with regard to back injury, really refers to weight that taxes your muscles enough that they are in danger of not protecting your back anymore. Don’t get stuck on plate numbers… if you can only front squat 275, 250 is a heavy lift and I would be scared to see you rolling your back on it. On the other hand, if you can squat 275, you could probably use really bad form at 135 and not be in much danger.

In general, shoot for better form, don’t worry about heavy or not. Good form now means less injury later.[/quote]

Good post.

I would front squat in anything with a heel, Olympic shoes being the ideal front squatting with flat foot (i.e. chucks or feet) is just making life harder than it needs to be.

4

[quote]IrishMarc wrote:

[quote]Dr. Manhattan wrote:

[quote]Naphta wrote:
I was wondering if there are any experienced front squatters who front squat in chuck taylors?

One thing I’ve noticed when doing front squats is that when I try to really sink low with it my back inevitably rounds slightly at the bottom. I’ve never gotten any pain from this, but this could be because I haven’t gotten to heavier weights front squatting yet (3-4 plates.)

I was thinking this could possibly be because:

A.) I generally front squat in my chucks, which have a very low sole. I have heard that having a slight heel to front squats makes the movement much easier.

B.) Perhaps I am simply going too low? While I would like to work the movement as low as I can to transfer over to my other activities, if stopping higher would correct this I guess I will.

Is there anybody who can comfortable front squat low in their chucks or other flat soled shoes? Any advice? I believe I am front squatting correctly otherwise, although any links would also be helpful ( I sometimes get conflicted on whether I initiate the movement by pushing my hips back or as I usually do simply trying to sit straight down)
[/quote]

If you are rounding your back, you are going too low for your flexibility. What a heel in an olympic shoe does is gives you ‘fake’ ankle flexibility; it allows your knees to come out further over your toes with your heels still down on the ground, which allows you to stay more upright. This, in turn, makes it so that your hips and shoulders are more over your base, which decreases torque on the back and decreases the stretch on your glutes/hamstrings. If your hips are tucking, its probably because you have to lean forward since you can’t stay as upright due to less ankle flexibility. Stretch those calves and achilles tendons! More hamstring/glute flexibility might help too, but if you aren’t getting your knees out past your toes, a full front squat will be difficult for most.

As far as the weight goes… heavy for you means near your max. 3-4 plates doesn’t really mean anything as that might be exceedingly light for someone else. Heavy, with regard to back injury, really refers to weight that taxes your muscles enough that they are in danger of not protecting your back anymore. Don’t get stuck on plate numbers… if you can only front squat 275, 250 is a heavy lift and I would be scared to see you rolling your back on it. On the other hand, if you can squat 275, you could probably use really bad form at 135 and not be in much danger.

In general, shoot for better form, don’t worry about heavy or not. Good form now means less injury later.[/quote]

Good post.

I would front squat in anything with a heel, Olympic shoes being the ideal front squatting with flat foot (i.e. chucks or feet) is just making life harder than it needs to be. [/quote]

I take that it includes stilettos?

Koing

5

Adidas Ironwork lifting shoes are awesome for front squats. As well as back squats and cleans.

6

Thanks for the advice. Would foam rolling the achilles up to the calves before a session be beneficial?

I’m probably going to focus on dead lifting for my main lift over my next training block and try working specifically on form for front squats on an extra day. I can’t really afford a new pair of lifting shoes right now (although there next on the list), so I’ll probably just use a small weight plate.

Do you guys have a website for ordering lifting shoes? I have found some on Ebay, but prefer ordering from a trusted website most of the time.

7

I’m in the UK so I got mine from a UK website.

Foam rolling your calves should help, I find doing dynamic calf stretches helps enormously too. Also make sure you’re thoroughly warmed up in general - a tight groin , hammies or quads can make you round too soon too.

At the moment I’m doing a standard deadlift day and a standard squat day, but I supplement both with a couple of sets of high rep front squats (Charlie Poliquin style), I find its working pretty well.

8

It is possible that I don’t know what I’m talking about - so just take what seems plausible to you. I think that the following works for me (kind of adapted from Dan John’s stuff). I do it almost every day and I’m seeing improvements over time.

Sink down into a squat (with no weight) and then breathe in (big chest) and out (buddah belly) repeatedly until I’ve manipulated my spine into a neutral at the bottom position. I don’t think there is such a thing as ‘too low’ unless you are literally sitting on the ground.

Try and recruit muscles so I can come up a couple inches (trying to retain neutral spine) then bouncing lightly from the bottom. Repeat until spine actually is neutral. Then bounce up a little bit higher and repeat until spine actually is neutral. Eventually… After adding a few inches over time… ATG jump squat with neutral spine.

Then add weight.

(I’m still in sneakers but it is time for me to move to chucks 'cause each hang clean is a different experience)

9

[quote]alexus wrote:
I don’t think there is such a thing as ‘too low’ unless you are literally sitting on the ground.

[/quote]

Too low means too low for one’s flexibility. If your lower back rolls and your hips tuck under, you are too low and need to work on stretching before going lower.

10

If you are squatting by lowering your hips down between your legs I’m not sure how your hips could tuck under. I hear you about the flexibility required to keep neutral spine though. I guess I was thinking that the way to approach it may be from the bottom-up (from the natural bottom position) rather than from the top-down (worrying about how low you should aim to go), though.

11

[quote]alexus wrote:
If you are squatting by lowering your hips down between your legs I’m not sure how your hips could tuck under. I hear you about the flexibility required to keep neutral spine though. I guess I was thinking that the way to approach it may be from the bottom-up (from the natural bottom position) rather than from the top-down (worrying about how low you should aim to go), though.[/quote]

Because as you progressively sit lower, your hip angle is growing more and more acute. By keeping your spine in place, your erectors are staying tight and are therefore not being allowed to stretch. You will get a little more out of your hamstrings due to your knee closing, however a lot of the stretch goes to your glutes.

If you have poor gluteal flexibility (and especially if you have poor hamstring flexibility), your hips will tuck under regardless of how you squat down.

The problem is that a lot of people don’t have the flexibility to have a neutral spine at the bottom (let alone a more arched spine), regardless of where you start them. If that worked for you, its probably because you had the flexibility, but not the recruitment patterns for a full squat.

By starting at the bottom and positioning your back so it was neutral, you began to teach yourself how to be in that position - but you had the capability for it already. If you had lacked the flexibility, you’d need to start at the top and, over the span of weeks, progressively try to get lower with a tight back as your flexibility improved.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the average gym goer can’t sit all the way down into a full squat. Whether its lack of calf, hamstring or glute flexibility (or some combination), they can’t do it. Women tend to have better flexibility than guys, so its more likely that a newer woman would.

12

Ah yes, that does makes sense, thanks a bunch.

I started out squatting facing a wall getting progressively lower, as you say. Took me WEEKS before I could break parallel, so that process probably gave me the flexibility so that I could just sink down and then do the ‘prying’ and recruiting thing. I may well not have been able to do that without doing the wall squats first.

13

Agreed. There IS such a thing as squatting too low. That is why the I don’t really like the “ATG” mentality that a lot of people embrace. A weightlifter should squat to full ROM, which is as low as you can go while maintaining a neutral spine. Below that and you’re just setting yourself up for injury and will not be able to make long term progress.

As much effort as you put in to mobility/flexibility work, there is a natural limit for everyone where you should not force yourself to go any lower.

I found this to be helpful:

14

So I was abnormally stiff today because I missed body balance on the weekend (or so I tell myself) but today I realized that that weird thing I’ve got going on with my descent isn’t the old motor program of doing a low bar back squat. It is the dreaded butt wink :frowning: I don’t know why or how I got it into my head that that couldn’t happen on the ‘sitting down’ rather than ‘sitting back’ squats and my ‘sitting back’ squat doesn’t have butt wink (though I stop just under parallel rather than trying to go lower admittedly).

I’d seen that article before but it didn’t make much sense to me at the time. This time a little lightbulb went off. I do have tight hip flexors and I’m not switching them off on my ascent which is why they get a bit upset when I do lots of squats (feels like tendonitis in my hip). Found an olympic sized broomstick at the gym today so lots of front and overhead squatting with that trying my best to keep upright. I’ll do those drills too. Thanks a bunch for posting them.

15

Hip flexor, hamstring, and adductor flexibility will let you get to a natural squat position. Google the Dan John video on teaching the proper squat. He uses a pnf stretch with the squat that can be done with a partner or on your own.

16

there is no such thing as “too low” in regards to squats as long as form is consistent.

17

i front squat comfortably in Chuck’s and I usually sit straight down.

18

[quote]H4d193 wrote:
i front squat comfortably in Chuck’s and I usually sit straight down.[/quote]

X2

I feel like the raised heel would increase the torque on your back. Is there any truth to that or am I thinking too far into this?

19

[quote]mallen5 wrote:

[quote]H4d193 wrote:
i front squat comfortably in Chuck’s and I usually sit straight down.[/quote]

X2

I feel like the raised heel would increase the torque on your back. Is there any truth to that or am I thinking too far into this?[/quote]

no, and u are.

20

[quote]mallen5 wrote:

[quote]H4d193 wrote:
i front squat comfortably in Chuck’s and I usually sit straight down.[/quote]

X2

I feel like the raised heel would increase the torque on your back. Is there any truth to that or am I thinking too far into this?[/quote]

On the contrary, I find squatting with a raised heel (back squats or front squats) takes all of the tightness out of my calves and lets me sit more comfortably into the hole.