Front Squats or Zerchers?

[Pinto]

[quote]goochadamg wrote:
Pinto wrote:
Get stronger. You might just be a leaner. No shame there. If you bend over with your max weights, it probably means you are stronger doing a borderline good morning. Try this- get three spotters to watch you carefully with something shy of a PR squat weight- say 30 to 50 lbs less than your max.

Get your stance out wider to accomodate the upright position. Don’t worry about making the weight, just maintain the upright stance- if you miss it, you miss it. No try it again- this time with your regular bent-over groove. What feels stronger?

A wider stance is going to necessitate less lean? Doesn’t a wider stance usually result in less forward movement of the knees, which in turn means the bar moves forward less from less knee movement, which in turn means more lean is needed to get the bar over the middle of the feet? (Did that make sense?)[/quote]

While I have seen a lifter buckle and start bowing their back under a heavy load while squatting wider, I have never seen anybody lean more at the hip from squatting wider- but there’s always a first!

Most natural born leaners I know- myself included- have a hard time taking a heavy weight to depth (and coming back up) with an upright stance unless they go a little wider. Sometimes ducking their toes out will get it, but often not. I believe it has to do with knee/hip angle and femur length relative to back length. A long femur will usually necessitate a radical knee bend and a very disdvantageous position if there is not complementing bend at the hip joint (i.e. leaning).

He almost does a front squat- but with the weight on his back. The lifter has to let his knees come forward a lot to to desecend properly. Thsi takes a lto of posterior chain strengh out of the mix. However, by widening the stance a bit- I’m not talking Vogelpohl wide, just wider- he can “shorten” the femur lever. This reduces the degree of knee bend, which reduces the amount hip bend, and allows the lifter to sit down more upright.

Well- based on those physics- why doesn’t everybody squat wide? Because some people are weaker and less stable with a wide stance. It’s like they have nothing to push against in the hole. As such, leaning may be the best way to stay tight in the hole and move the most weight.

Just my thinking based on my observations and experiences.

[apwsearch]

[quote]Pinto wrote:
goochadamg wrote:
Pinto wrote:
Get stronger. You might just be a leaner. No shame there. If you bend over with your max weights, it probably means you are stronger doing a borderline good morning. Try this- get three spotters to watch you carefully with something shy of a PR squat weight- say 30 to 50 lbs less than your max.

Get your stance out wider to accomodate the upright position. Don’t worry about making the weight, just maintain the upright stance- if you miss it, you miss it. No try it again- this time with your regular bent-over groove. What feels stronger?

A wider stance is going to necessitate less lean? Doesn’t a wider stance usually result in less forward movement of the knees, which in turn means the bar moves forward less from less knee movement, which in turn means more lean is needed to get the bar over the middle of the feet? (Did that make sense?)

While I have seen a lifter buckle and start bowing their back under a heavy load while squatting wider, I have never seen anybody lean more at the hip from squatting wider- but there’s always a first!

Most natural born leaners I know- myself included- have a hard time taking a heavy weight to depth (and coming back up) with an upright stance unless they go a little wider. Sometimes ducking their toes out will get it, but often not. I believe it has to do with knee/hip angle and femur length relative to back length. A long femur will usually necessitate a radical knee bend and a very disdvantageous position if there is not complementing bend at the hip joint (i.e. leaning). He almost does a front squat- but with the weight on his back. The lifter has to let his knees come forward a lot to to desecend properly. Thsi takes a lto of posterior chain strengh out of the mix. However, by widening the stance a bit- I’m not talking Vogelpohl wide, just wider- he can “shorten” the femur lever. This reduces the degree of knee bend, which reduces the amount hip bend, and allows the lifter to sit down more upright. Well- based on those physics- why doesn’t everybody squat wide? Because some people are weaker and less stable with a wide stance. It’s like they have nothing to push against in the hole. As such, leaning may be the best way to stay tight in the hole and move the most weight.

Just my thinking based on my observations and experiences.

[/quote]

Some good thoughts.

Also, bar position contributes to forward lean quite a bit. As little as a half inch up or down the back can make quite a difference. We had one of our junior lifters come back from college this summer and for some reason he was basically almost doing a high bar and looked very unstable out of the hole. Leaning and just not tight at all. Lowered the bar about an inch and tightened him up considerably basically gettign him into position before the walkout as he was also adjusting after he walked out, and boom, in like 4 sets he looked like his old self.

I would’t over complicate things with your accesory movements. Certainly not as a substitute for back squatting. In all likelihood you need a few tweaks here and there and more time back squatting, not doing other movements.

I think back to years ago when Capt. Kirk did an interview in PLUSA about how he got his squat up. There was this litany of questions and after every one of them he said, “Squat. You get better at squatting by squatting.”

Granted, few people are as structurally gifted as Karwoski when it comes to squatting (basically a bigger Wade Hooper) but a lot of wisdom in those words.

[sumabeast]

Safety squat bar will fix problem falling forward it thats what you mean.
if you don’t have one, focus on forcefully pushing back of your neck into the bar, keep the head up straight ahead or slightly higher, chest full, and keep torso tight.

Zerchers will blast your arms and biceps. if that’s not what you’re really aiming for, then yes try the front squats as well.