Front Squats for Vertical Jump Training?

Training Powerlifting
101

just to clarify, in regards to vert; emphasizing “as little ground contact as possible” is not the way to go… it leads to lower GCT’s, but with less total force production… total force production is what you want for vert… landing with minimal GCT is more specific to sprint training.

it’s really important people understand this in order to use DJ’s for vert effectively…

RE: Verkhoshansky (sorry for the formatting)

question:

How important is it to minimize the landing/amortization time during drop jumps? Is it more important, equally important or less important than the height reached during the subsequent jump?

answer:

The aim of Shock Method Depth (Drop) Jump is to increase the explosive strength and reactive capacity. The increasing of explosive strength and reactive capacity depend on the increasing of the height reached during the subsequent jump. The landing/ amortisation time is a parameter of the Deth Jump execution.

In one of my experiments I tried to understand how could be changed the Depth Jump height and the lending time in the relation with the formulating of the aim of the exercise:

  1. to drop in low and to jump in aloft?
    Result: h - 69 cm t - 0.24 s.

  2. to drop in low and to jump in aloft as high as possible with more fast landing amortization?

Result: h - 58 cm t - 0.20 s

  1. to drop in low and to jump in aloft as high as possible with more slow lending amortization?
    Result: h - 73 cm, t - 0.31 s

So, when the athlete try to minimize the lending/amortization time in Depth Jump execution, he cannot realize the maximal explosive strength effort.

The best Depth Jump result was obtained when I asked only to lend softly and to jump in aloft as high as possible.

From the results of experiment we can observe that the execution technique and the result of Depth Jump depend on the formulating of the aim of the exercise. If the athlete try to obtain the maximal jump height he performs the Depth jump with the maximal height and with the optimal landing time. If the athlete tries to obtain the minimal lending time he performs the Dept jump with minimal lending time, but the jump height could not be maximal.

102

[quote]adarqui wrote:
The key to plyo’s is that they need to be explosive, with as little ground contact as possible. People often mess these up by making them complicated and slowing them down too much to be of benefit.

just to clarify, in regards to vert; emphasizing “as little ground contact as possible” is not the way to go… it leads to lower GCT’s, but with less total force production… total force production is what you want for vert… landing with minimal GCT is more specific to sprint training.

it’s really important people understand this in order to use DJ’s for vert effectively…

[/quote]

I disagree, but I think we’re arguing semantics here. For training purposes with plyos, they should be as explosive as possible and minimize ground contact time to emphasize what you are trying to train in the muscle (stretch shortening cycle and neuromuscular power).

For a depth jump though, you do make sure for practical purposes they are actually initiating a proper jump on the landing which means they initiate a relatively rapid counter movement via knee flexion, which is in contrast to just landing and taking off using the ankle only (which is what people do when they aren’t doing a depth jump properly). The former approach increases ground contact time but is how I teach a depth jump, the later decreases it.

For a proper vertical jump, I absolutely agree that you don’t minimize what you’re doing in the counter movement and jump.

103

you disagree with Verkhoshansky …he created shock training

104

[quote]Dan1990 wrote:
you disagree with Verkhoshansky …he created shock training[/quote]

lol!!!

ya that’s weird…

105

well the semantics are important… you’re right when you say “as explosive as possible”, but wrong when you say “minize GCT”… when reducing GCT is a focus of the exercise, it loses its effectiveness.

so from the founder of shock, increased “neuromuscular power” will come best when thinking about jumping your heighest… you will then see adaptations in motor unit recruitment, motor-neuron discharge rates, muscular stiffness, & motor-neuron synchronization… all of this leads to increased starting strength and thus RFD… getting off the ground too quick will not stress each subsystem maximally.

peace

106

Kangaroo=great natural jumper

big legs compared to the rest of his body=big muscles=great strength=great relative strength=great power to weight ratio=great jumping

First,get big strong legs.Worry about other stuff when achieved first objective.

Stay strong!

107

Look at body structure of lemurs

Lemurs are ridicolous jumpers

Big long legs compared to rest of the body.Thats a lot of leg muscle mass compared to whole body mass.

108

[quote]BALBO wrote:

First,get big strong legs.Worry about other stuff when achieved first objective.

Stay strong![/quote]

Agree

109

[quote]BALBO wrote:
Kangaroo=great natural jumper

big legs compared to the rest of his body=big muscles=great strength=great relative strength=great power to weight ratio=great jumping

First,get big strong legs.Worry about other stuff when achieved first objective.

Stay strong![/quote]

you forgot the most important thing why kangaroos jump high… has really nothing to do with “big muscles = big jumping”…

peace

Measurements of muscle stiffness and the mechanism of elastic storage of energy in hopping kangaroos.

  1. A kangaroo hopping above a certain speed appears to consume less oxygen than a quadrupedal mammal, of similar weight, running at the same speed (Dawson & Taylor, 1973). This is thought to be achieved by storage of elastic energy in tendons and ligaments. 2. Energy can be stored in a tendon by stretching it, but only if the muscle fibres in series with it are stiff enough to resist most of the length change. We have measured length and tension changes in the contracting gastrocnemius muscle of the wallaby Thylogale during rapid, controlled stretches, and from this determined the amount of movement in muscle fibres and tendon (method of Morgan, 1977). 3. When the muscle was developing close to its maximum isometric tension, up to eight times as much movement occurred in the tendon as in the muscle fibres. This is made possible by the wallaby having a long and compliant tendon. 4. Measurement of work absorption by the muscle with a full length of free tendon and when the tendon had been shortened, showed that with the shortened tendon a larger proportion of movement occurred in the muscle fibres, producing a steep rise in work absorption by the muscle and a consequent increase in energy loss.
110

[quote]adarqui wrote:
BALBO wrote:
Kangaroo=great natural jumper

big legs compared to the rest of his body=big muscles=great strength=great relative strength=great power to weight ratio=great jumping

First,get big strong legs.Worry about other stuff when achieved first objective.

Stay strong!

you forgot the most important thing why kangaroos jump high… has really nothing to do with “big muscles = big jumping”…

peace

Measurements of muscle stiffness and the mechanism of elastic storage of energy in hopping kangaroos.

  1. A kangaroo hopping above a certain speed appears to consume less oxygen than a quadrupedal mammal, of similar weight, running at the same speed (Dawson & Taylor, 1973). This is thought to be achieved by storage of elastic energy in tendons and ligaments. 2. Energy can be stored in a tendon by stretching it, but only if the muscle fibres in series with it are stiff enough to resist most of the length change. We have measured length and tension changes in the contracting gastrocnemius muscle of the wallaby Thylogale during rapid, controlled stretches, and from this determined the amount of movement in muscle fibres and tendon (method of Morgan, 1977). 3. When the muscle was developing close to its maximum isometric tension, up to eight times as much movement occurred in the tendon as in the muscle fibres. This is made possible by the wallaby having a long and compliant tendon. 4. Measurement of work absorption by the muscle with a full length of free tendon and when the tendon had been shortened, showed that with the shortened tendon a larger proportion of movement occurred in the muscle fibres, producing a steep rise in work absorption by the muscle and a consequent increase in energy loss.

[/quote]

Why then kangaroos have big back leg muscles? Why did evolution provided them with big leg muscles if only thing needed for jumping was elastic connective tissue?

111

Lets say that your goal is to do a handstand and jump using your arms and shoulder strength.
I think that large hyperthophy of the shoulder & arm muscles would be required.Your strength routine would be centered around military press.1RM Military press to bodyweight ratio would be a base for further jump training. No one in his sane mind would expect that person with skinny upper body and skinny arms would perform great no matter how explosive he is.

112

[quote]adarqui wrote:
BALBO wrote:
Kangaroo=great natural jumper

big legs compared to the rest of his body=big muscles=great strength=great relative strength=great power to weight ratio=great jumping

First,get big strong legs.Worry about other stuff when achieved first objective.

Stay strong!

you forgot the most important thing why kangaroos jump high… has really nothing to do with “big muscles = big jumping”…

peace

Measurements of muscle stiffness and the mechanism of elastic storage of energy in hopping kangaroos.

  1. A kangaroo hopping above a certain speed appears to consume less oxygen than a quadrupedal mammal, of similar weight, running at the same speed (Dawson & Taylor, 1973). This is thought to be achieved by storage of elastic energy in tendons and ligaments. 2. Energy can be stored in a tendon by stretching it, but only if the muscle fibres in series with it are stiff enough to resist most of the length change. We have measured length and tension changes in the contracting gastrocnemius muscle of the wallaby Thylogale during rapid, controlled stretches, and from this determined the amount of movement in muscle fibres and tendon (method of Morgan, 1977). 3. When the muscle was developing close to its maximum isometric tension, up to eight times as much movement occurred in the tendon as in the muscle fibres. This is made possible by the wallaby having a long and compliant tendon. 4. Measurement of work absorption by the muscle with a full length of free tendon and when the tendon had been shortened, showed that with the shortened tendon a larger proportion of movement occurred in the muscle fibres, producing a steep rise in work absorption by the muscle and a consequent increase in energy loss.

[/quote]

Nr.2 =energy can be stored in a tendon,only if a muscle fibers are STIFF ENOUGH to resist most of the length change------> great eccentric strength

Second thing,if kangaroos muscles are not strong enough to produce a lot of energy,what will be stored in tendons?

113

[quote]BALBO wrote:
Lets say that your goal is to do a handstand and jump using your arms and shoulder strength.
I think that large hyperthophy of the shoulder & arm muscles would be required.Your strength routine would be centered around military press.1RM Military press to bodyweight ratio would be a base for further jump training. No one in his sane mind would expect that person with skinny upper body and skinny arms would perform great no matter how explosive he is. [/quote]

der.

the best athletes on the planet usually have long tendons…

by your logic, every powerlifter should be able to outjump all of these skinny weaklings with small muscle bellies & longer tendons… syke.

and your handstand pushup analogy is kind of retarded… look at all of the skinny gymnist kids out there who can do some crazy stuff with their upper body… you rarely see huge bodybuilder looking types doing this sort of thing, but their are a few on youtube.

anyway, back to the main point… the tendon in a kangaroo is a very large spring… the muscles of course need to be stiff enough on impact to allow this spring to lengthen, but the point is, most of the power generated from this animal is from the tendon… shorten the tendon by 6" and you probably won’t even have a kangaroo anymore.

kangaroos
cats
gizelles
some types of dogs (such as those skinny race dogs, not pitbulls (short tendons))
frogs

^ all rely long tendons to perform the way they do…

this forum is very “muscle bound”, so of course people are going to think like this… BIG SQUAT, BIG MUSCLES, BIG VERT… etc… you don’t need big muscles for insane eccentric rfd/muscle stiffness…

peace man

114

[quote]BALBO wrote:
adarqui wrote:
BALBO wrote:
Kangaroo=great natural jumper

big legs compared to the rest of his body=big muscles=great strength=great relative strength=great power to weight ratio=great jumping

First,get big strong legs.Worry about other stuff when achieved first objective.

Stay strong!

you forgot the most important thing why kangaroos jump high… has really nothing to do with “big muscles = big jumping”…

peace

Measurements of muscle stiffness and the mechanism of elastic storage of energy in hopping kangaroos.

  1. A kangaroo hopping above a certain speed appears to consume less oxygen than a quadrupedal mammal, of similar weight, running at the same speed (Dawson & Taylor, 1973). This is thought to be achieved by storage of elastic energy in tendons and ligaments. 2. Energy can be stored in a tendon by stretching it, but only if the muscle fibres in series with it are stiff enough to resist most of the length change. We have measured length and tension changes in the contracting gastrocnemius muscle of the wallaby Thylogale during rapid, controlled stretches, and from this determined the amount of movement in muscle fibres and tendon (method of Morgan, 1977). 3. When the muscle was developing close to its maximum isometric tension, up to eight times as much movement occurred in the tendon as in the muscle fibres. This is made possible by the wallaby having a long and compliant tendon. 4. Measurement of work absorption by the muscle with a full length of free tendon and when the tendon had been shortened, showed that with the shortened tendon a larger proportion of movement occurred in the muscle fibres, producing a steep rise in work absorption by the muscle and a consequent increase in energy loss.

Nr.2 =energy can be stored in a tendon,only if a muscle fibers are STIFF ENOUGH to resist most of the length change------> great eccentric strength

Second thing,if kangaroos muscles are not strong enough to produce a lot of energy,what will be stored in tendons?
[/quote]

read my other response…

but again, a kangaroos muscle doesn’t need to produce alot of energy… you’re mentally comparing humans to kangaroos… if humans had the same tendons, we’d just bounce everywhere tooo… it would take absolutely no effort to bounce 12" off the ground… we wouldn’t walk anymore either, we’d bounce…

go watch videos of people who attach those spring-like lower leg attachments to their legs… watch how effortless they bounce… it doesn’t take much force to bounce at all… you just barely push and you’re flying… thats similar to how long tendons work.

significant gains in muscular stiffness/eccentric RFD can be had without much hypertrophy… drops, top speed sprints, & depth jumps are an example of training methods to achieve this… hell anyone who is athletic, running a top speed sprint, is absorbing insane amounts of force per contact… it can be like 7-10xBW.

peace

115

[quote]adarqui wrote:
BALBO wrote:
Lets say that your goal is to do a handstand and jump using your arms and shoulder strength.
I think that large hyperthophy of the shoulder & arm muscles would be required.Your strength routine would be centered around military press.1RM Military press to bodyweight ratio would be a base for further jump training. No one in his sane mind would expect that person with skinny upper body and skinny arms would perform great no matter how explosive he is.

der.

the best athletes on the planet usually have long tendons…

by your logic, every powerlifter should be able to outjump all of these skinny weaklings with small muscle bellies & longer tendons… syke.

and your handstand pushup analogy is kind of retarded… look at all of the skinny gymnist kids out there who can do some crazy stuff with their upper body… you rarely see huge bodybuilder looking types doing this sort of thing, but their are a few on youtube.

anyway, back to the main point… the tendon in a kangaroo is a very large spring… the muscles of course need to be stiff enough on impact to allow this spring to lengthen, but the point is, most of the power generated from this animal is from the tendon… shorten the tendon by 6" and you probably won’t even have a kangaroo anymore.

kangaroos
cats
gizelles
some types of dogs (such as those skinny race dogs, not pitbulls (short tendons))
frogs

^ all rely long tendons to perform the way they do…

this forum is very “muscle bound”, so of course people are going to think like this… BIG SQUAT, BIG MUSCLES, BIG VERT… etc… you don’t need big muscles for insane eccentric rfd/muscle stiffness…

peace man[/quote]

1.You are right about tendon length importance,but we cant do nothing about it.We can however make leg muscles( primary engine for jumps) bigger & stronger.

2.Should powerlifters outjump skinny weaklings with long tendons?
Well,it depends on particular athlete.I dont like generalizations.
I think elite powerlifter squatting 3 times his bodyweight should outjump some long-tendoned skinny weak guy that plays a lot of basketball=in a pure vertical jump without warm-up.
On the other hand,skinny basketball player that trains vertical jump + is playing (jumping,sprinting) a lot would probably outjump some upper-body dominant, high body fat,strength-train only powerlifter.
We should measure that and found out!

3.My point is getting your thighs & butt big and strong by squatting and deadlifting is simple and effective.Do that and supplement it with plyos.Measure your vert as you go along.As long as your vert goes up with only strenght training milk it while you can.When you dont progress any more try other methods.
There are worse things in life than having big strong thighs and good vertical.And if you squat more than your double body weight as to grass,you are going to jump at least above average( average=around 20 inches).

116

[quote]adarqui wrote:
BALBO wrote:
adarqui wrote:
BALBO wrote:
Kangaroo=great natural jumper

big legs compared to the rest of his body=big muscles=great strength=great relative strength=great power to weight ratio=great jumping

First,get big strong legs.Worry about other stuff when achieved first objective.

Stay strong!

you forgot the most important thing why kangaroos jump high… has really nothing to do with “big muscles = big jumping”…

peace

Measurements of muscle stiffness and the mechanism of elastic storage of energy in hopping kangaroos.

  1. A kangaroo hopping above a certain speed appears to consume less oxygen than a quadrupedal mammal, of similar weight, running at the same speed (Dawson & Taylor, 1973). This is thought to be achieved by storage of elastic energy in tendons and ligaments. 2. Energy can be stored in a tendon by stretching it, but only if the muscle fibres in series with it are stiff enough to resist most of the length change. We have measured length and tension changes in the contracting gastrocnemius muscle of the wallaby Thylogale during rapid, controlled stretches, and from this determined the amount of movement in muscle fibres and tendon (method of Morgan, 1977). 3. When the muscle was developing close to its maximum isometric tension, up to eight times as much movement occurred in the tendon as in the muscle fibres. This is made possible by the wallaby having a long and compliant tendon. 4. Measurement of work absorption by the muscle with a full length of free tendon and when the tendon had been shortened, showed that with the shortened tendon a larger proportion of movement occurred in the muscle fibres, producing a steep rise in work absorption by the muscle and a consequent increase in energy loss.

Nr.2 =energy can be stored in a tendon,only if a muscle fibers are STIFF ENOUGH to resist most of the length change------> great eccentric strength

Second thing,if kangaroos muscles are not strong enough to produce a lot of energy,what will be stored in tendons?

read my other response…

but again, a kangaroos muscle doesn’t need to produce alot of energy… you’re mentally comparing humans to kangaroos… if humans had the same tendons, we’d just bounce everywhere tooo… it would take absolutely no effort to bounce 12" off the ground… we wouldn’t walk anymore either, we’d bounce…

go watch videos of people who attach those spring-like lower leg attachments to their legs… watch how effortless they bounce… it doesn’t take much force to bounce at all… you just barely push and you’re flying… thats similar to how long tendons work.

significant gains in muscular stiffness/eccentric RFD can be had without much hypertrophy… drops, top speed sprints, & depth jumps are an example of training methods to achieve this… hell anyone who is athletic, running a top speed sprint, is absorbing insane amounts of force per contact… it can be like 7-10xBW.

peace[/quote]

I agree. :wink:

117

well first of all ive been researching the vertical jump and training to improve such for a couple of years now and felt as though i had exhausted my resources…very happy to have come across this site and forum, lots of food for thought here
personally i beleive ot acheive a maximum vertical jump in a certain time frame (as i am currently a university volleybal player nd have a limited off season where heavy lifting can occur…

also a strong believer in the vertical jump bible) is to bulk up as much as possible while performing a lot of strentgh training (with emphasis on leg strentgh as well as working exercises that target the arm swing…i.e. back to front cable raises)…once one has bulked up and achieved lots of strentgh gains (personally use my own variation of bill stars 5x5 with great results…

for me 3.5 month bulking/strentgh gaining phase) i give a 2 month period of being in a caloic deficit to cut any fat gained in the serious bulking, perform maintenance lifts in the squat and deadlift once a week and perform a variation of explosive lifting on another day of the week(power snatches/cleans, jump squats and a few others ive come up with on my own which i really like) and th third leg day a week is dedicated to foot speed and true plyometrics (drop jumps, depth jumps, self tossed medicie ball catapult throws etc)…

i have not done this full program before as i have just come up with this recentyl and am still in season (did variations of this all last off season but didnt have a specific program set up and gained 6-7 inches on my VJ and feel that this new program will give even more gains)…

also dont expect to gain too much fat mass during my bulking phase that would require a full 2 months to cut (as I am very lean to begin with and find cutting quite easy and am still able to maintain gains though maintenance lifting) so think that being in a caloric deficit or even maintain weight once I am back to my 6% bf will help more so with neurological gains…just wondering anyones thoughts on this mouthful of mine?

also i have a couple questions which were aroused from prevous posts to this thread

  • i see coolcolj has given a lot of numbers out there for squat requirements to have a certain vertical jump…was wondering if moment of force had anything to do with it? im currently 6’7, 210lbs 7% bf and have very long limbs and have a standing 31-33 inc vj and peaked at below parrallel low bar squating 315x3

  • in my off seasn training my knees would sometimes ache but this never affected my performance, now in season vball i am jumping much higher than last year, am 10lbs heavier and am having much more knee problems (daily practises with very few rest days im sure are the problem but this was never an issue in the last couple of years)…anyways, was wondering what this foam roll stuff ive been hearing about is all about?