Front Squats for Vertical Jump Training?

[quote]Nick Radonjic wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
You cna progress for a while, but eventually you will need to frontsquat heavier weights than youc an clean

I said before that a 2xBW frontsquat = 40 inch VJ. Since it’s usually around 80% of a full olympic squat for an average person. For others it’s more like 85%. Quad dominant olylifters are closer to 90%

ie 8RM olympic squat = 1RM frontsquat. Anyone who can do 8 reps with 2xBW on full squats will be able to jump at least 40 inches

1.5xBW Frontsquat = about 30 inch VJ

At the upper extreme you have Alan Barch jr aka SquatDR with a 2.5+ xBW frontsquat jumping over 46+ inches

545lbs at 210lb bodyweight

his front squat to olympic squat % is about 85%

Yes, I know. Squat Doctor’s a monster. Quick question though: Are you stating that anyone who can front squat 1.5 bodyweight has a 30 inch vertical even if they are not jump training? Thanks.

Nick Radonjic
[/quote]

The formula is assuming you have good movement efficiency in the jump.

[quote]Bloobird wrote:
Nick Radonjic wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
You cna progress for a while, but eventually you will need to frontsquat heavier weights than youc an clean

I said before that a 2xBW frontsquat = 40 inch VJ. Since it’s usually around 80% of a full olympic squat for an average person. For others it’s more like 85%. Quad dominant olylifters are closer to 90%

ie 8RM olympic squat = 1RM frontsquat. Anyone who can do 8 reps with 2xBW on full squats will be able to jump at least 40 inches

1.5xBW Frontsquat = about 30 inch VJ

At the upper extreme you have Alan Barch jr aka SquatDR with a 2.5+ xBW frontsquat jumping over 46+ inches

545lbs at 210lb bodyweight

his front squat to olympic squat % is about 85%

Yes, I know. Squat Doctor’s a monster. Quick question though: Are you stating that anyone who can front squat 1.5 bodyweight has a 30 inch vertical even if they are not jump training? Thanks.

Nick Radonjic

The formula is assuming you have good movement efficiency in the jump.[/quote]

What does that mean, ‘good movement efficiency’ in the jump. I have no clue. Thanks.

Nick Radonjic

[quote]Nick Radonjic wrote:
Bloobird wrote:
Nick Radonjic wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
You cna progress for a while, but eventually you will need to frontsquat heavier weights than youc an clean

I said before that a 2xBW frontsquat = 40 inch VJ. Since it’s usually around 80% of a full olympic squat for an average person. For others it’s more like 85%. Quad dominant olylifters are closer to 90%

ie 8RM olympic squat = 1RM frontsquat. Anyone who can do 8 reps with 2xBW on full squats will be able to jump at least 40 inches

1.5xBW Frontsquat = about 30 inch VJ

At the upper extreme you have Alan Barch jr aka SquatDR with a 2.5+ xBW frontsquat jumping over 46+ inches

545lbs at 210lb bodyweight

his front squat to olympic squat % is about 85%

Yes, I know. Squat Doctor’s a monster. Quick question though: Are you stating that anyone who can front squat 1.5 bodyweight has a 30 inch vertical even if they are not jump training? Thanks.

Nick Radonjic

The formula is assuming you have good movement efficiency in the jump.

What does that mean, ‘good movement efficiency’ in the jump. I have no clue. Thanks.

Nick Radonjic
[/quote]

It means you’ve practised, and are very efficient when it comes to applying force in a jump.

it means you have be to good at jumping from a technique and practise point of view

the average person in the bell curve should be able to do it. Unless your a long distance runner and born with 90% slow twitch fiber and slow reflexes :slight_smile:

standing vertical jump is a relatively slow movement, since the human body is really heavy. Movements in the middle of the force velocity curve depends on maximal isometric strength for improvement

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
it means you have be to good at jumping from a technique and practise point of view

the average person in the bell curve should be able to do it. Unless your a long distance runner and born with 90% slow twitch fiber and slow reflexes :slight_smile:

standing vertical jump is a relatively slow movement, since the human body is really heavy. Movements in the middle of the force velocity curve depends on maximal isometric strength for improvement[/quote]

Interesting. What do you mean by the last sentence: “Movements in the middle of the force velocity curve depend on maximal isometric strength for improvement?” Thanks

movements that aren’t super fast like punching or throwing a ball, and have moderately heavy external resistance are improved by getting stronger!

that’s why, when your full squat goes up, so will your power cleans and power snatches

a vertical jump is very similar to a power snatch (with a high catch), except your throwing your body up in the air with your legs and hips, instead of imparting force to a barbell

what improves the power snatch relative to your bodyweight also improves the vertical jump. Speed is genetic, so all that remains left to do is to increase strength so you can apply more force.

if you are strong enough to throw a barbell that is the same weight as your bodyweight 40 inches into the air, measured from hip crease to where you catch it, then you also should be able to jump 40 inches.

in other words, if you are around 5’9" and can power snatch your bodyweight and catch the bar with straight legs, then there is no reason you should not be able to vertical jump 40 inches, if you are fresh and have practised a lot of jumping

OK. Interesting. According to this theory, then say I weigh 185 and can power snatch 150 with straight legs and I can hang power clean 235 with a slight pop out of my legs? I’m 6’0" tall by the way. What should be my vertical assuming I ‘know’ how to jump? Thanks.

Nick

[quote]Nick Radonjic wrote:
OK. Interesting. According to this theory, then say I weigh 185 and can power snatch 150 with straight legs and I can hang power clean 235 with a slight pop out of my legs? I’m 6’0" tall by the way. What should be my vertical assuming I ‘know’ how to jump? Thanks.

Nick[/quote]

That is Coolcolj’s formula.

[quote]Nick Radonjic wrote:
OK. Interesting. According to this theory, then say I weigh 185 and can power snatch 150 with straight legs and I can hang power clean 235 with a slight pop out of my legs? I’m 6’0" tall by the way. What should be my vertical assuming I ‘know’ how to jump? Thanks.

Nick[/quote]

I guess with those stats, you would be full squatting around 350lbs - referencing the the power snatch
I don’t bother with power clean numbers, cause a lot of weak or slow people tend to be able to get some good numbers on them and can’t jump for crap :slight_smile:

350lb full squat at 185lbs = 31-32 inch vertical jump

I posted this in my blog a while back, but it bares repeating!

Need more proof squatting is good for your hops?

quoting Kelly Baggett

[QUOTE]In one instance I had a client that I felt had way too many movement dysfunctions to ever benefit from increased strength. The guy was fairly strong and thick but didn’t move very smooth and anyone who watched him would probably say the same thing. In a little more than a year he’d gotten up to around a 300 pound squat, weighed 170 pounds and gone from a 22 to 26 inch vertical jump. At this point I thought if he ever wanted to further improve as an athlete the guy should spend most of his time working on mobility, activation, and movement work and less on strength training.

At this point he decided to stop sports training and take up bodybuilding. A year later his bodyweight was up 20 pounds, his squat was up almost 100 pounds, and he hadn’t done any sports or movement related stuff in almost a year. He then told me he wanted to get back into vert training and I fully expected him to look like a trainwreck. After a couple of weeks of deloading and working back into some jump training he proceeded to go out and hit a 35 inch jump and easily dunk for the first time, so obviously my original assumptions were wrong.

After observing a couple of more instances like that I realized I’d fallen into functional overanalyzation trap of the modern day strength and conditioning coach. This type of movmement impairment overanlyzation doesn’t take place in sports like gymnastics and martial arts but people still improve just fine. Train with good form, play your sport, become aware of what proper movement feels and looks like, and most of the activation stuff will work itself out. To clarify I’m also not against the use of various progressions to ensure good form like you like to use.

What I’m against is the notion that training for athletes and training for people coming out of joint replacement surgery needs to be the same[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]He’s 5’10 185. I’m not sure of his exact reach but it’s not that high. I believe he has to jump around 30 inches just to hit the rim. One thing about him is his body-fat is still the same now at 185 as it was when he weighed 170.

He went all the way up to 205 at one point and then spent about 6 months cutting down to 185. It was at that point he decided to get back into vert training. I was still really surprised with his progress but that goes to show you how important basic strengyh is[/QUOTE]

impressive gains, just from bodybuilding as well

as I said before, it doesn’t matter how you get the strength,
muscle mass/strength is muscle mass and strength
A bigger muscle is a stronger muscle.

We all know that, but plenty of people are paranoid of gaining weight and using bodybuilding methods.

All strength training does is teach the body to use it’s existing muscle size better.
And the strength gain will always out number the muscle mass increase weight, if you train right.

No matter how much you trick out a 2 litre 4 cyclinder engine, and try to make it more effecient and rev higher, it can never beat a 6 litre v12 for raw torque, even if the V12 is a lot bigger and heavier…

Horsepower is horsepower, just get it no matter how you do it. Then when you teach your body to apply it, movement efficiency, the end result is the same.

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
Nick Radonjic wrote:
OK. Interesting. According to this theory, then say I weigh 185 and can power snatch 150 with straight legs and I can hang power clean 235 with a slight pop out of my legs? I’m 6’0" tall by the way. What should be my vertical assuming I ‘know’ how to jump? Thanks.

Nick

I guess with those stats, you would be full squatting around 350lbs - referencing the the power snatch
I don’t bother with power clean numbers, cause a lot of weak or slow people tend to be able to get some good numbers on them and can’t jump for crap :slight_smile:

350lb full squat at 185lbs = 31-32 inch vertical jump

[/quote]

VERY interesting. I had actually squatted double bodyweight previously and did so about a couple years back. Now, I’ve been focusing on front squats and have full front squatted 305. I’m confident now with all of the single leg work I’ve been doing that I can get to 315 for an all out single.

I probably need to focus on force absorption and more plyo work. I’m more of a ‘strong’ jumper meaning that I can touch the rim from a standstill, which is about 30 inches above my reach, but my three step jump is not much higher. Is maximal strength my issue then or plyo work if I want to get my vert up to 36"? Thank again for your indepth response(s).

Nick

how much higher do you get off a run or a few steps?

3-5 inches is about average for most people. Yeah there are some who get 6-10 inches higher, but they are born like that - leverage, structure, tendons and stuff
No amount of plyos and depth jumps is going to change that too much I’m afraid.

Just keep getting stronger and practise jumping to improve your technique and timing, that’s all the “plyo” work you need…

Deload the strength work for a few weeks to reach your full jump height. I’ve seen people loose a good 5-6 inches when pushing up the squats, only to regain that and then some, after they taper back the strength work and resting more, while not over doing the jumping.

That’s what I find my VJ formula useful for. If you are squatting a certain load and have been practising jumps, and you are a few inches under the projected number. Then chances are you need to deload to express your full potential

305lb frontsquat is about 80%'ish of 370 so it sounds about right. Especially since you said you had back squatted around that before. You probably have a 32-33 inch VJ in you.

Depth jumps are basicly jump technique work for people who don’t jump enough IMO…
So if your after a 36 standing jump, get that front squat higher to around the 330lb or more range. And then deload the strength work and put it on maintenance and after a 2-4 weeks of regular jump practise you should hit your peak

Little side story

Read an article recently about Georges St. Pierre, the MMA fighter, stating that he had a 40 inch vertical. I would believe it, he is a freak athlete.

However, when his coach was talking about his lifting numbers, I was surprised at what he said. I have the article right here in front of me (from latest Men’s Fitness–BS magazine I know but its a quote from his trainer), so I’ll just post it:

“St-Pierre can do a chinup with 120lbs around his waist, bench 120lb dumbells, AND FRONT SQUAT 270LBS.”

At 190lbs, that’s less than 1.5 times his bodyweight. The context of the sentence, at least with the other lifts its mentioned with, makes it sound like it was a max effort lift. If this is true, how is Georges jumping so damn high?

[quote]BetterAthlete wrote:
…[/quote]

Fishy, indeed. Even if he was absolutely reactive and technically efficient, seems there would still need to be a greater base of strength there, unless he had a running start or similar.

[quote]BetterAthlete wrote:
Little side story

Read an article recently about Georges St. Pierre, the MMA fighter, stating that he had a 40 inch vertical. I would believe it, he is a freak athlete.

However, when his coach was talking about his lifting numbers, I was surprised at what he said. I have the article right here in front of me (from latest Men’s Fitness–BS magazine I know but its a quote from his trainer), so I’ll just post it:

“St-Pierre can do a chinup with 120lbs around his waist, bench 120lb dumbells, AND FRONT SQUAT 270LBS.”

At 190lbs, that’s less than 1.5 times his bodyweight. The context of the sentence, at least with the other lifts its mentioned with, makes it sound like it was a max effort lift. If this is true, how is Georges jumping so damn high?[/quote]

qouting coolcolj:
3-5 inches is about average for most people. Yeah there are some who get 6-10 inches higher, but they are born like that - leverage, structure, tendons and stuff
No amount of plyos and depth jumps is going to change that too much I’m afraid.

Arnoud that’s from a run up. The highest natural born freak jumpers can get into the 50-52 inch range off a run, but most of then can barely crack 36 inches standing.

I saw a video of GSP doing hurdle hops. I don’t think he can vertical jump 40 inches standing IMO :slight_smile:

really? I guess I don’t really know much about hurdle jumps and all that, but he’s probably the best athlete in mma right now. The article said he had a 36 inch vertical around the time he lost to Matt Serra, and since then its gone up to 40.

I was a little skeptical about that front squat number. Either its a lot bigger than that or you’re right, he probably can’t jump 40’’ high. I wish his coach would take a video of him testing.

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
how much higher do you get off a run or a few steps?

3-5 inches is about average for most people. Yeah there are some who get 6-10 inches higher, but they are born like that - leverage, structure, tendons and stuff
No amount of plyos and depth jumps is going to change that too much I’m afraid.

Just keep getting stronger and practise jumping to improve your technique and timing, that’s all the “plyo” work you need…

Deload the strength work for a few weeks to reach your full jump height. I’ve seen people loose a good 5-6 inches when pushing up the squats, only to regain that and then some, after they taper back the strength work and resting more, while not over doing the jumping.

That’s what I find my VJ formula useful for. If you are squatting a certain load and have been practising jumps, and you are a few inches under the projected number. Then chances are you need to deload to express your full potential

305lb frontsquat is about 80%'ish of 370 so it sounds about right. Especially since you said you had back squatted around that before. You probably have a 32-33 inch VJ in you.

Depth jumps are basicly jump technique work for people who don’t jump enough IMO…
So if your after a 36 standing jump, get that front squat higher to around the 330lb or more range. And then deload the strength work and put it on maintenance and after a 2-4 weeks of regular jump practise you should hit your peak[/quote]

I only get up 1-2 inches higher from a few steps away. That’s why I characterize myself as more of a strong leaper. I also have KB’s vertical jump book which is a great resource. One of my goals before I turn 40 next year is to put one down with authority. Thanks again.

Nick

I think you can maybe squeeze it up to 3-4 inches higher off a run. Just practise it more, get a smooth flow etc
Approach aggressively and and explode as hard as you can. Don’t pussfoot around.

Honestly my difference was 2 inches before, the same as with a step, but after a lot of practise is now up to 4 inches. And it’s been like that with or without a ton of depth jumps. So it is pretty much genetic.
I have naturally large quads and glutes, thick legs and calves. So that’s how it is.
Even Kelly Baggett only has a 3 inch difference.