Frank Miller's 300

[quote]florin wrote:

Interesting alternate history.

Come to think of it, it did happen, except it was the Romans, not the Spartans. [/quote]

After I posted that, I imagined how it might have happened. Sparta defeats Athens, and does not destroy Thebes, but annexes it. In due time, Epimanondas, who would have been governor of the vassal state of Thebes, perfects his improved phalanx maneuvers, which are adopted and refined by the Spartans.

Sparta, then, with this new combination of superlative discipline and superior technique, goes on to defeat the remaining kingdoms of Greece, adding them to its growing hegemony. Once Greece was consolidated, the natural next step would be to send a huge (by Spartan standards: let’s say 20,000 Spartan heavy infantry, and maybe 80,000 hoplites from other cities, plus skirmishers, light and heavy cavalry, slingers, archers and a supply train) expeditionary force east to face the Persians.

Armed thus with a phalanx not so inferior to the later Macedonian variety, and led by an able Spartan king, the odds are good that the Greeks could conquer and occupy at least as much territory as the Macedonians did. Greek settlers, traders and colonial governors would soon follow.

In the scenario I imagine, they avoid India, and instead confine themselves to the Mediterranean, Mesopotamian and Bosporus regions. Persia, Babylon, Turkey, Palestine, Phoenicia, Egypt, and then North Africa, Italy, Gaul and Iberia… all controlled by the Greeks, and not built on the shaky foundation of Alexander’s ego, would certainly have prevented the Romans from building an empire of their own. Likely, Christianity (if it ever appeared at all) would have been a very different religion (perhaps they would have made “Iesous Khristos” drink hemlock in lieu of crucifixion), and Muhammad’s jihad would likely have been stopped before it made it far past the Arabian peninsula.

There would have been no “Dark Ages”, so by extension no Renaissance, but rather an unbroken succession and evolution of Greek thought. Greek maritime and military technology would have continued to evolve as well, and there is no doubt in my mind that eventually, Greek merchants, searching for a faster route to the Spice Islands, and guided by Pythagoras’ postulate of a spherical earth, would have landed on the shores of what is now North America, maybe a eight hundred to a thousand years before Columbus (accompanied of course by a few phalanxes of Spartan marines), and they would have subdued the continent.

Now that’s an alternate history.

[quote]florin wrote:

[The Romans were] poor mathematicians…[/quote]

Yeah, well, you try doing calculus with Roman numerals sometime. Or long division even. It has been said that the Romans were conquered because they couldn’t divide.

Can we make THIS a movie???

holy shit lol

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
florin wrote:

Interesting alternate history.

Come to think of it, it did happen, except it was the Romans, not the Spartans.

After I posted that, I imagined how it might have happened. Sparta defeats Athens, and does not destroy Thebes, but annexes it. In due time, Epimanondas, who would have been governor of the vassal state of Thebes, perfects his improved phalanx maneuvers, which are adopted and refined by the Spartans.

Sparta, then, with this new combination of superlative discipline and superior technique, goes on to defeat the remaining kingdoms of Greece, adding them to its growing hegemony. Once Greece was consolidated, the natural next step would be to send a huge (by Spartan standards: let’s say 20,000 Spartan heavy infantry, and maybe 80,000 hoplites from other cities, plus skirmishers, light and heavy cavalry, slingers, archers and a supply train) expeditionary force east to face the Persians.

Armed thus with a phalanx not so inferior to the later Macedonian variety, and led by an able Spartan king, the odds are good that the Greeks could conquer and occupy at least as much territory as the Macedonians did. Greek settlers, traders and colonial governors would soon follow.

In the scenario I imagine, they avoid India, and instead confine themselves to the Mediterranean, Mesopotamian and Bosporus regions. Persia, Babylon, Turkey, Palestine, Phoenicia, Egypt, and then North Africa, Italy, Gaul and Iberia… all controlled by the Greeks, and not built on the shaky foundation of Alexander’s ego, would certainly have prevented the Romans from building an empire of their own. Likely, Christianity (if it ever appeared at all) would have been a very different religion (perhaps they would have made “Iesous Khristos” drink hemlock in lieu of crucifixion), and Muhammad’s jihad would likely have been stopped before it made it far past the Arabian peninsula.

There would have been no “Dark Ages”, so by extension no Renaissance, but rather an unbroken succession and evolution of Greek thought. Greek maritime and military technology would have continued to evolve as well, and there is no doubt in my mind that eventually, Greek merchants, searching for a faster route to the Spice Islands, and guided by Pythagoras’ postulate of a spherical earth, would have landed on the shores of what is now North America, maybe a eight hundred to a thousand years before Columbus (accompanied of course by a few phalanxes of Spartan marines), and they would have subdued the continent.

Now that’s an alternate history.

florin wrote:

[The Romans were] poor mathematicians…

Yeah, well, you try doing calculus with Roman numerals sometime. Or long division even. It has been said that the Romans were conquered because they couldn’t divide.

[/quote]

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Can we make THIS a movie???

holy shit lol[/quote]

Hey, thanks, Xen.

Come to think of it, it would make a good movie. And a nice novel. I think you’ve just given me an idea for my next book/screenplay. Cheers. :slight_smile:

[quote]florin wrote:

Very true, but they did not have an intellectual revolution, like the one in the West, the Age of Reason.[/quote]

Wrong. The Muslims had their Age of Reason, which lasted from the year 750 to 1258 AD. During that period of time the Islamic world was the pinnacle of civilization. All of the major innovations of philosophy, science, medicine, commerce and technology came out of Baghdad and Samarkand, while the old Greco-Roman Empire in Byzantium stagnated and became more, well, Byzantine. Muslim, Christian and Jew lived together in peace and harmony, while Western Europeans were hacking each other to pieces over tiny fiefdoms and shivering in their filthy, damp castles and hovels.

It was this Islamic Golden Age, a direct descendant of Classical Greek and Roman achievements, that spawned Western Europe’s Renaissance and later Enlightenment. The Muslim empire declined when the Mongols invaded, and was reborn as the Osmani Khalifate (that’s “Ottoman Empire” to you) based in Turkey, but that was squashed in turn by the British in the First World War. The Muslims have never recovered from that defeat.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
florin wrote:

Very true, but they did not have an intellectual revolution, like the one in the West, the Age of Reason.

Wrong. The Muslims had their Age of Reason, which lasted from the year 750 to 1258 AD. During that period of time the Islamic world was the pinnacle of civilization. All of the major innovations of philosophy, science, medicine, commerce and technology came out of Baghdad and Samarkand, while the old Greco-Roman Empire in Byzantium stagnated and became more, well, Byzantine. Muslim, Christian and Jew lived together in peace and harmony, while Western Europeans were hacking each other to pieces over tiny fiefdoms and shivering in their filthy, damp castles and hovels.

It was this Islamic Golden Age, a direct descendant of Classical Greek and Roman achievements, that spawned Western Europe’s Renaissance and later Enlightenment. The Muslim empire declined when the Mongols invaded, and was reborn as the Osmani Khalifate (that’s “Ottoman Empire” to you) based in Turkey, but that was squashed in turn by the British in the First World War. The Muslims have never recovered from that defeat.[/quote]

Good to see someone knows history pretty good.

Just to add. Ironically, it was thanks to the Crusades and the periods of “peace” in between Crusades that Western Europe re-acquired the lost knowledge from the Muslims as well as new knowledge from the Muslims. The Crusades also opened up trade routes for Italian merchants to the Middle East and from there to the lucrative “Silk Road”.

[quote]NeoSpartan wrote:

Good to see someone knows history pretty good.
[/quote]

Well, I try. :slight_smile:

Man, that is a seriously cool picture of a Spartiate king you’ve got as your avatar. What’s that from? Have you got a larger version of the image?

http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/84798/Movie_300_Scene.html

A new clip…


A few companies have licensed replicas of Spartan armor and weapons from the movie. Here’s a helmet from Strongblade ( http://www.strongblade.com ).


Here’s another helmet, which is not licensed, but is patterned after Leonidas’ crested helmet in the movie. Yeah, yeah, an officer’s helmet would have the horsehair crest facing the other way, but we won’t hold that against Frank.

Here’s an aspis that looks as though it’s already caught a few Persian arrows.


And here is a highly stylized kopis like they used in the movie. Looks wicked, but I’ll bet it has terrible balance, since all of the weight is up front.


Here’s a more authentic kopis for comparison.

And anyway, it was this sword, the xiphos, that saw more use by the Spartan hoplites. The kopis is a slashing weapon, which would have been useless in tight phalanx formation. Xenophon recommends the kopis for cavalry use, but you need something short and stabby at close range.

An Athenian once poked fun at how short the Spartan xiphos were. The Spartan replied laconically, “we find them long enough to reach the hearts of our enemies.”


A few Spartans, in slightly more authentic costume than Frank Miller gave them. Yeah, the Lakonians were tough all right, but not even they wanted to go into battle butt nekkid with their dicks hanging out.


And here’s a Spartan officer, with transverse crested helmet and xiphos sword. If it were Leonidas, he would have had a different hoplon design. Not the lambda, but a red, white and black swirling sunburst. And his crest would be crimson, not black and white.

I know this is nitpicking, and I know I’m going to enjoy the movie anyway, but it’s the kind of thing that really pisses history nerds like me (and probably NeoSpartan as well) off. Don’t get me started on the historical travesty that was Braveheart (a movie I loved anyway, by the way).

I REALLY hope they get it right in Gates of Fire, if it actually does ever become a movie. Steven Pressfield seems to know a bit more about Ancient Greek history than Frank Miller, so there is hope.

George Clooney as Leonidas, though… ugh.

Could be worse, I guess. They could cast Bruce Willis as Dienekes, Brad Pitt as Polynikes, Julia Roberts as Gorgo and Matt Damon as Xeones… and call it Ocean’s Three Hundred.

“Molon labe, motherfuckers!”

Damn, I can’t seem to get the fucking battle of Thermopylae out of my head now.

I was just thinking how cool it would be if someone with a knowledge of history, military tactics, and pyrotechnics (someone like, say…me) were able to go back in time to 481 BC, maybe a year before the battle, and seek an audience with Kings Leonidas and Leotychidas.

This person (that is, I) would foretell the Persians’ advance, the route they would take, and confirm what they likely already knew: that Thermopylae would be the place to hold them off.

However, I would also show them the ace up my sleeve: the recipe for black powder, and the plans for a crude water-cooled, hand-cranked gatling gun, which could be fabricated from bronze. Each gun would have five 2-inch diameter smoothbore barrels, and fire bronze cartridges containing three or four lead bullets similar to the ones used by their mercenary slingers.

A year should be ample time to forge the weapons, mix enough powder and cast enough bullets, then train the Spartans in the employment of the guns. Five guns should be sufficient: three to defend the pass, and two to guard the Phokian pass, up which the traitor Ephialtes led the Persians.

Even if one or more of the guns were captured, the Persians would be hard-pressed to reverse-engineer the black powder recipe in time to develop an arsenal of their own for Plataea and Salamis.

The battle of Thermopyle would then have had a much different outcome: five hundred thousand bullet-riddled Persian corpses, and Xerxes beating a hasty retreat back to Persepolis. The Spartans, needless to say, would then carry on with their conquering of the world as outlined above, the timetables moved up about four or five hundred years.

And me? I would gladly and humbly accept the governorship of one of the provinces given to me by the grateful Spartan kings, along with a company of hoplites at my command, a private villa with a hundred square stadia or two of land, and a few hundred helots to help out with the gardening.

[quote]
Grimnuruk wrote:
"When told that the Persian archers numbered so many that their arrows blotted the sun from the sky, Leonidas replied ‘Good. Then we shall fight in the shade.’- Herodotus’Histories

TQB wrote:
I don’t think it was Leonidas who is supposed to have said it but some minor Spartan, Diagogas?[/quote]

His name was Dienekes. This is the actual quote from Herodotus:

“Although extraordinary valor was displayed by the entire corps of Spartans and Thespaians, yet bravest of all was declared the Spartan Dienekes. It is said that on the eve of battle, he was told by a native of Trachis that the Persian archers were so numerous that, when they fired their volleys, the mass of arrows blocked out the sun. Dienekes, however, undaunted by this prospect, remarked with a laugh, ‘Good. Then we’ll have our battle in the shade.’”

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

However, I would also show them the ace up my sleeve: the recipe for black powder, and the plans for a crude water-cooled, hand-cranked gatling gun, which could be fabricated from bronze. Each gun would have five 2-inch diameter smoothbore barrels, and fire bronze cartridges containing three or four lead bullets similar to the ones used by their mercenary slingers.

[/quote]

I saw recently a document (can’t remember it’s name) where they stated that according to new ‘evidence’ greeks and romans had many weapons that were previously thought to been invented much later.

In fact they had gatling-guns (shooting small arrows of high velocity), flamethrowers (greek fire) etc.

There was also some evidence of black powder, but that was still debatable.

[quote]mrman wrote:

I saw recently a document (can’t remember it’s name) where they stated that according to new ‘evidence’ greeks and romans had many weapons that were previously thought to been invented much later.

In fact they had gatling-guns (shooting small arrows of high velocity), flamethrowers (greek fire) etc.

There was also some evidence of black powder, but that was still debatable.
[/quote]

I knew the Byzantines had napalm as of about the 7th century AD, which is about the same time gunpowder was first being used in China, but I’ve never heard of any pre-Christian uses of explosives, in Greece or elsewhere. If you remember the name of the document, please pass it on!

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Grimnuruk wrote:
"When told that the Persian archers numbered so many that their arrows blotted the sun from the sky, Leonidas replied ‘Good. Then we shall fight in the shade.’- Herodotus’Histories

TQB wrote:
I don’t think it was Leonidas who is supposed to have said it but some minor Spartan, Diagogas?

His name was Dienekes. This is the actual quote from Herodotus:

“Although extraordinary valor was displayed by the entire corps of Spartans and Thespaians, yet bravest of all was declared the Spartan Dienekes. It is said that on the eve of battle, he was told by a native of Trachis that the Persian archers were so numerous that, when they fired their volleys, the mass of arrows blocked out the sun. Dienekes, however, undaunted by this prospect, remarked with a laugh, ‘Good. Then we’ll have our battle in the shade.’”
[/quote]

Thanks, I love how Herodotus can get the quotes right from a battle where the witnesses presumably perished. Give me Thukydides any day…
No bull…

TQB