France - Civil War Pending

[quote]RankHypocrisy wrote:
This is the direct result of the French importing millions upon millions of people who don’t share their culture, their ethnicity, or their religion. Diversity breeds conflict.
Welcome to the multicultural utopia![/quote]

On that note, check out this article by Theodore Dalrymple (a doctor in the UK who writes under that pen name):

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php?table=&section=&issue=2005-11-05&id=6865

How the French riot
Theodore Dalrymple

Les Vans, Ard?che

For a patriot like me, it is a great consolation to know that other societies are undergoing precisely the kind of decomposition, if a little more slowly and with slightly more resistance to it, in which we so clearly lead the world. This reassures me that, eventually, nowhere will be better than Britain, and then I will be able once again, like George III, to rejoice in the name of Briton.

n France, for example, it was not many years ago that people with tattoos were infrequently to be seen, but now they are everywhere. The small bourgeois town near my house boasts not one but two tattoo and piercing studios, inscribing indelible kitsch on the skins of the dim and tasteless young. The latter hope thereby to achieve an individuality of which a total immersion in popular culture deprives them: therefore a scorpion above a nipple or a snake over the deltoid provides them with a unique character that they would otherwise lack.

Though the term ?Anglo-Saxon? is one of reprobation, often but not always rightly, in the French press, the fact is that they ? the French ? follow us in the end, especially in our foolishnesses. They have followed our teaching methods, for example, in the state schools, to the great detriment of the poor and the great advantage of the bureaucratic elite. ?Anglo-Saxon? means modern, and modern means the latest thing; and in a nation of the fashion-conscious the latest thing means the best thing, to be without which is to be …well, d?mod?.

They even have small riots like ours. This proves that they are up to speed on the latest social developments. A few days after the attempted pogrom in Lozells, Birmingham, there was a two-night riot in the charmingly named Clichy-sous-Bois, where you might have imagined that many Britons had bought properties for a song, about whose improvements both in amenities and monetary value they so boringly boasted at dinner parties.

Alas, property in Clichy-sous-Bois is probably quite cheap, but not because the original inhabitants have fled its rural isolation. It?s a suburb of Paris, social housing territory, and social housing, in modern societies at any rate, means antisocial behaviour. Such areas are, in effect, riots waiting to happen.

The cause of the riot, apart from the relatively clement weather for the time of year that is a necessary but not sufficient cause of such rioting, was the death of two youths and the severe burns of another. They apparently formed members of a group of 15 who were peacefully breaking into a workshop when the police arrived and arrested six of them. Unlike the 14-year-old girl in Lozells who was allegedly raped by the friends and associates of the shopkeeper from whose shop she had been peacefully shoplifting, the three youths of Clichy-sous-Bois were incontestably real.

They fled and took refuge in an electricity transformer by climbing over two walls complete with eloquent notices that millions of volts were bad for you, where two of them were electrocuted to death and one suffered severe burns. The two dead were of Turkish and Malian extraction; perhaps the new methods of teaching had left them unable to read, at least at speed.

The police felt it politic, in order to calm the situation, to issue a statement to the effect that the three were not being chased ?physically? at the time of their sanctuary in the installation of Electricit? de France ? but, as the good book says, the guilty fleeth where no man pursueth.

Alas, the police?s sensitivity did not calm the situation; it was too late. Rioting at the terrible injustice done to the three youths ensued, kindergartens and schools were stoned in natural consequence of their martyrdom, and 28 cars were burnt. The fact that the cars probably belonged to poor inhabitants of the quartier did not inhibit the rioters, or even give them pause; in such a situation it is self-expression that counts. A shot was fired at one of the armoured vehicles carrying the forces of law if not of order, and pierced its armour: a testimony to the increasing fire-power of the slums.

The imam of the area said, on one of the days following the rioting, that arrests in Clichy-sous-Bois were often strong-armed, and that therefore youths felt humiliated by them. I accept, of course, that the French police are not universally appreciated for their tact or delicacy; nevertheless, this seems to be taking the doctrine of every youth?s inalienable right to self-esteem a little far. It is surely stretching credibility to suggest that strong-armed tactics are never required, and that the youths of Clichy-sous-Bois always come quietly, with a frank acknowledgement of the fairness of their arrest.

The headmistress of one of the stoned kindergartens said that Clichy-sous-Bois was not a particularly bad area. It was generally peaceful, but there was petty theft, and cars were sometimes festively burnt on Christmas and New Year?s Day, but that was all. The parents of her pupils were shocked by what had happened.

According to Le Monde, they marched in homage to the deceased on the day following the rioting. Were they heroes of the resistance, then? If so, resistance to what? To social security, social housing, and the mobile telephones with which some of the rioters were reported to have called in reinforcements from elsewhere? To the inflexibility of France?s labour laws, which protect those already in employment but prevent the unemployed from finding work? The deaths of the two were a tragedy to those who loved them, of course, and it is tragic also that youths feel that breaking into workshops gives meaning to life, but even allowing for the impetuosity of youth it is difficult to see anything in their conduct worthy of homage.

How widespread is disorder in the suburbs of French towns and cities? The interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, has built a career on emphasising its scope. In an interview with Le Monde, he once said that 9,000 police vehicles had been stoned in the previous ten months, and that between 20 and 40 cars were burnt out every night in France. Certainly, the latter figure is not an exaggeration: every suburb worth its salt is littered with the carcasses of burnt-out cars. If Britain is the car-theft champion of the world, France is the vehicle-arson champion.

In defence of French social underdevelopment, however, it must be said that arson is much less likely to bother members of the French bourgeoisie than is car-theft to bother members of the British bourgeoisie. In France, your car will not be burnt out unless you are at least teetering on the edge of relative poverty. Despite the animadversions of the French press about savage liberalism, therefore, Britain is a much more egalitarian society than France, where criminality is so much better zoned.

The French are pretentious idiots!

What I can’t figure out is why African’s and Arab’s would want to live there?

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
The French are pretentious idiots!

What I can’t figure out is why African’s and Arab’s would want to live there?
[/quote]

Have you even read ONE news article on the topic? They move there for a better standard of living. Even being unemployed in France is better than living in a slum in Morocco or Algeria.

Why is the French government putting up with this shit? Enough is enough. Eight nights of rioting? Five words: The army, curfew, shoot them.

[quote]doogie wrote:
JohnGullick wrote:

Ok, a leftist view. Well a country with rampant nationalism is always going to have trouble assimilating immigrants. In fact any country will have trouble, witness the lack of hispanic integration in the US, or the lack of Turkish integration in Germany, or equally the BNP in the UK.

Just wanted to quickly point out that you are way off in comparing hispanic intergration in the U.S. with any of the other examples given. Not even close to being the same.

[/quote]

JohnGullick, I appreciate your viewpoint but doogie has has a good point.

Hispanics are far more integrated in the US than the other ethnic groups listed.

We both agree that France has taken the concept of socialism/liberalism too far.

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
Why is the French government putting up with this shit? Enough is enough. Eight nights of rioting? Five words: The army, curfew, shoot them.[/quote]

Seriously, this is making the French government look totally incompetent. Why don’t they just threaten deportation to anyone arrested who was involved in the rioting?

This can’t, by definition, be considered “Civil War” as all those causing the riots are not French citizens…they only live there.

Interestingly, they are small, fierce, highly mobile and highly organized.

Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

I’m a little confused here, you have people calling on the french government to deport immigrants involved in rioting and even shoot them. Yet if we were to call for the deportation of middle eastern men with possible links to terrorism, we would in fact be racial profiling non-tolerant neocons. Did you feel the same way about Katrina rioters, should they have been shot? Or, since Katrina was Bushs’ fault they were ok to riot?

[quote]snipeout wrote:
I’m a little confused here, you have people calling on the french government to deport immigrants involved in rioting and even shoot them. Yet if we were to call for the deportation of middle eastern men with possible links to terrorism, we would in fact be racial profiling non-tolerant neocons. Did you feel the same way about Katrina rioters, should they have been shot? Or, since Katrina was Bushs’ fault they were ok to riot?[/quote]

Who are you talking to? What are you talking about? The only person saying all those things in the same breath is you.

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
snipeout wrote:
I’m a little confused here, you have people calling on the french government to deport immigrants involved in rioting and even shoot them. Yet if we were to call for the deportation of middle eastern men with possible links to terrorism, we would in fact be racial profiling non-tolerant neocons. Did you feel the same way about Katrina rioters, should they have been shot? Or, since Katrina was Bushs’ fault they were ok to riot?

Who are you talking to? What are you talking about? The only person saying all those things in the same breath is you.

[/quote]

It was pretty much an open statement. The overall consensus of the liberal left on this forum seems to condone force used by other countries yet condem the US when they respond to threats in similar fashions.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
To further the notion that Hispanics are not having that hard of a time assimilating into American culture, witness employment and religion.

As for religion, how many churches now offer a Spanish speaking service for their congregation on Sunday mornings? I’ve have seen more than I can count.

[end quote]

I totally agree that Hispanics ARE assimilating into this country rather well. However, what you have said here is evidence of them NOT assimilating very well. If they were assimilating perfectly there would be no need for any Spanish language options. Again, I feel that they’re assimilating just fine. I just had to point that out.

Curious we do not have any students of European History here. French governments are notoriously disposable. I think we(they) are on the 5th Republic of France at the moment.(That’s since 1789, the French Revolution, you know.) They typically tear up their consititution every couple dozen years and start over, and I think they are about due. The precipitating events may be unique, but the eventual outcome will be the same. So everybody relax.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Hmm, it’s looking like civil unrest alright. I’m not sure there is much need to throw stones across the left and right divide at this point.

The article doesn’t even highlight the ideology issue, instead talking about the high level of unemployment in the poorer sections that are doing the rioting.

As to where it will go, that is harder to say. Nothing like an emotionally charged racial or ideological event involving the authorities to set things off…[/quote]

Sure there is a stone to throw here, the left is always wrong, always. So in this situation, your rabid fascination with multiculturalism and diversity has come back to bite them in the ass. Do I feel sorry for them, hell no, fuck the French. They are not our allies, to hell with them, they are getting what they deserve. Trying to civilize the muslim horde is like trying to tame a grown tiger, not going to happen. We are just going to end up like Roy if we keep trying, weak, incapacatated and emaciated. These people are animals.

mmg_4 wrote:

“oh my bad, you were trying to be funny…ohhhh hahaha im sorry man. ps, im not a liberal.”

Nice try. You voted for kerry (even if you are dead).

At least be honest about your problems. It’s the first stage in solving them.

JeffR

JohnGullick wrote:

“Ok, a leftist view. Well a country with rampant nationalism is always going to have trouble assimilating immigrants. In fact any country will have trouble, witness the lack of hispanic integration in the US,”

Riots in D.C.?

“or the lack of Turkish integration in Germany, or equally the BNP in the UK. The moral? There is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism. As for France’s welfare system. It is huge and overly centralised. There is nothing wrong with those better off in a community paying a little extra to help those less well off achieve a better standard of living, but in France state housing and minimum wage are not what is stifling the economy. I believe it to be the work habits. France has the longest holidays in the west and the shortest work week in the west.”

Ever wonder why Americans laugh their ass off when being “lectured” by france?

“The French worker is incredibly powerful, they strike constantly and get their way, they sue if they fired, in short what could be a hugely useful thing (the union) has been abused. Now their country is stagnating and dragging the EU down. I think of France as the antithesis of America. In America the corporation has won, it has tax breaks, it will only look after workers to make them work more, it is unregulated. In France the worker won, but they are now lazy and hamstring companies with poor work practices. A balance must be struck, but it is not as simple as economic and corporate structure.”

“Switzerland has a huge welfare system and strong unions, yet it is one of the highest performing countries in the world economically (outperforming the US even over the last few years), as well as having a very high standard of living.”

14 people live in switzerland. They are neutral on everything. No need to defend the un-attackable.

Need to remember those factors.

“On the flip side countless countries have absolute free markets and total corporate freedom, thanks to World Bank,yet I doubt you want to go and live in Nicaragua, or Botswana. I think this is an issue of culture. This is an issue of whether the Protestant work ethic (or equivolent) is balanced with a realisation of cultural value notwithstading exchange value.”

That is pretty (tears).

“I think America has it far from correct, equally I think France has it far from correct. The only states which get close to perfection, such as Scandanavian countries, or Canada,”

OH MY GOD!!! You are certifiable.

john, let’s make sure you understand something: We do not agree with your perception of these countries. I’ve spent some time in Canada and Sweden. They are quite beautiful with a friendly populace.

However, after about five days, most Americans want to return to the excitement that is the U.S.

There is a notable lack of gravitas/influence/electricity (metaphorically speaking) in these countries.

When in europe we scratch our heads when the shops close. We shake our heads when we hear about the workers’ numerous strikes, 30 hour work-weeks and 8 weeks of vacation per year.

When we are travelling, we pray we do not have any serious medical problems.

Finally, there is a sense of importance that is conspicuously lacking in these places. It’s difficult to describe, but it’s far more exciting making headlines rather than following them.

When you describe these areas as “perfection” we smile inwardly.

“are relatively small. How their standard of living could be achieved so universally in big, unwieldy countries is the holy grail. That is why Fukuyama was wrong. The end of history is a long way off.”

Are you a professor in England, john?

JeffR

"Iron John wrote:
This can’t, by definition, be considered “Civil War” as all those causing the riots are not French citizens…they only live there.

Interestingly, they are small, fierce, highly mobile and highly organized.

Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?"

That sounds like respect. Is it?

JeffR

[quote]snipeout wrote:
I’m a little confused here, you have people calling on the french government to deport immigrants involved in rioting and even shoot them. Yet if we were to call for the deportation of middle eastern men with possible links to terrorism, we would in fact be racial profiling non-tolerant neocons. Did you feel the same way about Katrina rioters, should they have been shot? Or, since Katrina was Bushs’ fault they were ok to riot?[/quote]

Please change your name to Rainjack Number 2

living in the center of paris, I havn’t noticed much change, but there are more cops out during the night around where I live.

the suburbs of paris have ALWAYS been shit, it’s not a secret, the recent riots were destined to happen and now that they are, no one is wondering why.

double that with the few select islamic radicals around paris, claiming responsibility for the whole thing, it’s a downright travesty.

I’m moving as soon as I finish art school, fellow t-men

[quote]JeffR wrote:
mmg_4 wrote:

“oh my bad, you were trying to be funny…ohhhh hahaha im sorry man. ps, im not a liberal.”

Nice try. You voted for kerry (even if you are dead).

At least be honest about your problems. It’s the first stage in solving them.

JeffR

[/quote]

so now your a psychic? You know who i voted for? Wrong, wrong, wrong…

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and speak for the anti-war/ABB gang. The trouble in France is ultimately the U.S.'s fault. We put an end to their OFF income stream. We pretty much did away with their Iraqi weapons contracts, and we won’t let them help us rebuild Iraq.

It’s all our fault - and as Americans we should all be ashamed right now. [/quote]
Well, not all Americans, but YOU should.

How funny these riots are. About as funny as someone flying a couple of planes in big buildings.