Hmm, it’s looking like civil unrest alright. I’m not sure there is much need to throw stones across the left and right divide at this point.
The article doesn’t even highlight the ideology issue, instead talking about the high level of unemployment in the poorer sections that are doing the rioting.
As to where it will go, that is harder to say. Nothing like an emotionally charged racial or ideological event involving the authorities to set things off…
[quote]rainjack wrote:
mmg_4 wrote:
Ah yes, once again Rainjack strikes with his undeniable wit and propensity to irritate, skirting the topic of the thread and turning it into a “me against the liberals thread”. Good job, big guy, you are absolutely brilliant.
Please read my response to AL baby.
I swear - you liberals really need to get over your hard-on for me.
[/quote]
The hard on is just because you are so good looking.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
mmg_4 wrote:
Ah yes, once again Rainjack strikes with his undeniable wit and propensity to irritate, skirting the topic of the thread and turning it into a “me against the liberals thread”. Good job, big guy, you are absolutely brilliant.
Please read my response to AL baby.
I swear - you liberals really need to get over your hard-on for me.
[/quote]
oh my bad, you were trying to be funny…ohhhh hahaha im sorry man. ps, im not a liberal.
Seriously can one of you liberals please address the topic being discussed instead of attacking rainman for trying to make a funny. I honestly whant to hear what you all have to say about this.
V
[quote]vroom wrote:
Hmm, it’s looking like civil unrest alright. I’m not sure there is much need to throw stones across the left and right divide at this point.
The article doesn’t even highlight the ideology issue, instead talking about the high level of unemployment in the poorer sections that are doing the rioting.
As to where it will go, that is harder to say. Nothing like an emotionally charged racial or ideological event involving the authorities to set things off…[/quote]
It’s a right and left issue, because it’s happening in France, which by many peoples accounts is the champion for the liberal cause in the world or some such bullshit. They have the system that liberals in this country would like, so you see we can see them crash and burn and then not follow in thier footsteps.
V
[quote]mmg_4 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
mmg_4 wrote:
Ah yes, once again Rainjack strikes with his undeniable wit and propensity to irritate, skirting the topic of the thread and turning it into a “me against the liberals thread”. Good job, big guy, you are absolutely brilliant.
Please read my response to AL baby.
I swear - you liberals really need to get over your hard-on for me.
oh my bad, you were trying to be funny…ohhhh hahaha im sorry man. ps, im not a liberal.[/quote]
Walks like a duck.
V
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Many of the leftist posters on this board are proponents of many of Frances policies and often indicate the US should follow similar policies.
I would like to see the leftists view on this situation.[/quote]
Ok, a leftist view. Well a country with rampant nationalism is always going to have trouble assimilating immigrants. In fact any country will have trouble, witness the lack of hispanic integration in the US, or the lack of Turkish integration in Germany, or equally the BNP in the UK. The moral? There is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism. As for France’s welfare system. It is huge and overly centralised. There is nothing wrong with those better off in a community paying a little extra to help those less well off achieve a better standard of living, but in France state housing and minimum wage are not what is stifling the economy. I believe it to be the work habits. France has the longest holidays in the west and the shortest work week in the west.
The French worker is incredibly powerful, they strike constantly and get their way, they sue if they fired, in short what could be a hugely useful thing (the union) has been abused. Now their country is stagnating and dragging the EU down. I think of France as the antithesis of America. In America the corporation has won, it has tax breaks, it will only look after workers to make them work more, it is unregulated. In France the worker won, but they are now lazy and hamstring companies with poor work practices. A balance must be struck, but it is not as simple as economic and corporate structure.
Switzerland has a huge welfare system and strong unions, yet it is one of the highest performing countries in the world economically (outperforming the US even over the last few years), as well as having a very high standard of living. On the flip side countless countries have absolute free markets and total corporate freedom, thanks to World Bank,yet I doubt you want to go and live in Nicaragua, or Botswana. I think this is an issue of culture. This is an issue of whether the Protestant work ethic (or equivolent) is balanced with a realisation of cultural value notwithstading exchange value.
I think America has it far from correct, equally I think France has it far from correct. The only states which get close to perfection, such as Scandanavian countries, or Canada, are relatively small. How their standard of living could be achieved so universally in big, unwieldy countries is the holy grail. That is why Fukuyama was wrong. The end of history is a long way off.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
From what I’ve read (I’m no expert), France’s “welfare” system is largely responsible for this. There is little incentive to work when the government:
a) Gives you food.
b) Gives you a place to live.
c) Taxes the hell out of you when/if you DO work, because they:
d) see a, b[/quote]
LOL. France: intellectual powerhouse.
[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Many of the leftist posters on this board are proponents of many of Frances policies and often indicate the US should follow similar policies.
I would like to see the leftists view on this situation.
Ok, a leftist view. Well a country with rampant nationalism is always going to have trouble assimilating immigrants. In fact any country will have trouble, witness the lack of hispanic integration in the US, or the lack of Turkish integration in Germany, or equally the BNP in the UK. The moral? There is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism. As for France’s welfare system. It is huge and overly centralised. There is nothing wrong with those better off in a community paying a little extra to help those less well off achieve a better standard of living, but in France state housing and minimum wage are not what is stifling the economy. I believe it to be the work habits. France has the longest holidays in the west and the shortest work week in the west.
The French worker is incredibly powerful, they strike constantly and get their way, they sue if they fired, in short what could be a hugely useful thing (the union) has been abused. Now their country is stagnating and dragging the EU down. I think of France as the antithesis of America. In America the corporation has won, it has tax breaks, it will only look after workers to make them work more, it is unregulated. In France the worker won, but they are now lazy and hamstring companies with poor work practices. A balance must be struck, but it is not as simple as economic and corporate structure.
Switzerland has a huge welfare system and strong unions, yet it is one of the highest performing countries in the world economically (outperforming the US even over the last few years), as well as having a very high standard of living. On the flip side countless countries have absolute free markets and total corporate freedom, thanks to World Bank,yet I doubt you want to go and live in Nicaragua, or Botswana. I think this is an issue of culture. This is an issue of whether the Protestant work ethic (or equivolent) is balanced with a realisation of cultural value notwithstading exchange value.
I think America has it far from correct, equally I think France has it far from correct. The only states which get close to perfection, such as Scandanavian countries, or Canada, are relatively small. How their standard of living could be achieved so universally in big, unwieldy countries is the holy grail. That is why Fukuyama was wrong. The end of history is a long way off. [/quote]
Agreed with all the above…
Recently the french riots have mirrored the riots present in and around paris in the early to mid 90’s - both sparked by alledged police violence to an ethnic group/minority. The one thing it did spawn was one of my favourite films - la haine (The hate).
Unfortunately for france when the last riots stopped the french minority “gangs” didnt. I remember seeing footage of gun storage and militant type activities spawned by “the hate” - not the film here but it was the name that was given to the movement that the minorities attached themselves too.
The current conditions need nipping in the bud before they escalate further.
IMO the minorities in france have the wrong idea when it comes to a fair deal - reading between the lines in what we are allowed to see via the press etc they seem to want a share of France’ economic wealth (Even though this is in decline) without doing that much.
Considering its uncommon for many people in france to work more that 30 hrs this seems strange compared to our work ethic in the UK where 40-50 hr weeks are not uncommon.
Any excuse for a riot. At least its not our sheep there burning this time.
[quote]Grork wrote:
Wow ALDurr, this post was so unintelligent I don’t know how to respond. But here it goes:
[/quote]
Who are you again?
So now you’re the expert on rainjack? He doesn’t need your help speaking for him. He and I may have our minor little disagreements, but I am well aware of his ability to defend himself. That is one of the things that I do respect about him.
See above.
Bring an unrelated post to the topic at hand. Anybody can see that he was just trying to spout his venom at people that don’t think like he does. Its what he does. Regardless if he tries to couch it as a joke, it looks too much like what he normally posts.
I didn’t realize that T-Nation was just for bodybuilders? I thought that it was for iron athletes of all types. I found all of your post too and the ones that weren’t just begging for advice of one type or another were just little snide remarks. Hardly the type of person that needs to be making judgements about anything. BTW to answer your little smart ass question: I was a bodybuilder for 1 1/2 years, a powerlifter for 7 years, and Olympic Weightlifter for 3 years and a practicing martial artist for the last 20 years. Also, mr. mental midget, “Ya” is not an actual word. So if you don’t have anything else better to do than ride rainjack’s nuts, I suggest you hop back on your short bus and go back to your special classroom with the rest of the babbling idiots.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
Let’s see:
-Self-appointed spokesperson for a group of people…Check!
-Self appointed expert on a situation…Check!
-Making a baseless analogy to illustrate viewpoint…Check!
Yes, you pretty much fit the definition of hypocrite with this post. You just did what you lambaste others for doing, thus proving that you subscibe to the “Do as I say, not as I do” philosophy.
You might want to grab a sense of humor before you come down here next time. It was supposed to be a joke. I’ll give you a fair warning next time I am going to try my hand at sarcasm.
Hell even jsbrook got it - and he’s 1FL. They aren’t supposed to find anything funny except what the professor tells them to laugh at.
[/quote]
So this was actually a joke? It looks too much like your normal rants to really tell the difference. My bad.
[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
Ok, a leftist view. Well a country with rampant nationalism is always going to have trouble assimilating immigrants. In fact any country will have trouble, witness the lack of hispanic integration in the US, or the lack of Turkish integration in Germany, or equally the BNP in the UK. [/quote]
Just wanted to quickly point out that you are way off in comparing hispanic intergration in the U.S. with any of the other examples given. Not even close to being the same.
[quote]ALDurr wrote:
So this was actually a joke? It looks too much like your normal rants to really tell the difference. My bad.[/quote]
Almost everything I write down here has more than just a touch of sarcasm. Unlike a lot of my adversaries down here - I have a sense of humor, and refuse to take what is said down here very seriously.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Ok, a leftist view. Well a country with rampant nationalism is always going to have trouble assimilating immigrants. In fact any country will have trouble, witness the lack of hispanic integration in the US, or the lack of Turkish integration in Germany, or equally the BNP in the UK.
[/quote]
I would submit that you haven’t spent a whole lot of time around the border regions of the Southwestern U.S.
Hispanics are integrated as hell. Go to El Paso, or Presidio, or Del Rio, or Laredo, then tell me that Hispanics aren’t integrated. I went to the newest Highschool in El Paso - the first graduating class as matter of fact - and the school was 60% hispanic. And that was in what was considered the upper class section of El Paso. They integrate.
But I think doogie would be the resident expert on hispanic integration.
Actually, Hispanics are expanding their influence in mostly positive ways throughout the United States. I say “mostly positive” because the integration of any two cultures is never seamless. There are always rough edges to sew together, to completely mangle a metaphor. However, I believe the key is that most Hispanics generally like the United States and want what it has to offer and are willing to work hard to achieve success here. Take a look at how many are in the military. They don’t have to do that. They have chosen to do so.
Disclaimer: My nic not withstanding, I’m learning some Spanish in an effort to be a better neighbor.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
doogie wrote:
Ok, a leftist view. Well a country with rampant nationalism is always going to have trouble assimilating immigrants. In fact any country will have trouble, witness the lack of hispanic integration in the US, or the lack of Turkish integration in Germany, or equally the BNP in the UK.
I would submit that you haven’t spent a whole lot of time around the border regions of the Southwestern U.S.
Hispanics are integrated as hell. Go to El Paso, or Presidio, or Del Rio, or Laredo, then tell me that Hispanics aren’t integrated. I went to the newest Highschool in El Paso - the first graduating class as matter of fact - and the school was 60% hispanic. And that was in what was considered the upper class section of El Paso. They integrate.
But I think doogie would be the resident expert on hispanic integration.
[/quote]
Hell rainjack, you don’t have to spend time around the boarder regions of the Southwest US to see that. It’s happening in many places in the US. I went back to my old neighboorhood where I grew up (D.C. Area) and it used to be mostly black with some whites and asians. Now you look at it and parts of the general area looks like parts of Mexico city. Where I live now has a huge population of latinos and it was happening in Cincinnati right as I was moving from there to my new job here.
Where do you get this stuff? Who here is proposing anything like the French system should be instituted here? Why do some of you persist in making up silly-ass arguments for some non-present group so that you can oppose it?
Oh, maybe because it is easier than talking to real people about real issues. My bad.
Getting back to the original subject of this post, somewhat.
I have no knowledge of conditions in France, other than what I read. Hence, the following question for any one with first hand knowledge/experience. Can a resident/immigrant of the Paris housing projects (Muslim or otherwise) start their own business and transition into full participation in Frence culture/life, if they so choose?
In other words, is there any social mobility for these immigrants in France?
eLS
To further the notion that Hispanics are not having that hard of a time assimilating into American culture, witness employment and religion.
Hispanics are working jobs in every state that I have been to - from the very crappy to owning small businesses - and not just in Texas and the border states, but up in Ohio, etc.
As for religion, how many churches now offer a Spanish speaking service for their congregation on Sunday mornings? I’ve have seen more than I can count.
Those are not signs that the Hispanics aren’t assimilating. As someone pointed out, the assimilation is never seamless, but Hispanics are coming to America so that they can enjoy being part of America.
The immigrant population of France is told, in the high name of multiculturalism, that assimilation isn’t necessary, and this lightning rod Balkanization is the fruit of that mindset.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Where do you get this stuff? Who here is proposing anything like the French system should be instituted here?[/quote]
Is this a serious question? The Left has championed the Euro model since the 60s.
Larger welfare state, benefits to non-citizens, free health care, etc. Mirroring Europe’s model - particularly France’s and Germany’s social economy model - is all there in the Left’s playbook.