France - Civil War Pending

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and speak for the anti-war/ABB gang. The trouble in France is ultimately the U.S.'s fault. We put an end to their OFF income stream. We pretty much did away with their Iraqi weapons contracts, and we won’t let them help us rebuild Iraq.

It’s all our fault - and as Americans we should all be ashamed right now.
Well, not all Americans, but YOU should.

How funny these riots are. About as funny as someone flying a couple of planes in big buildings.

[/quote]

How many innocent people have died in the French riots?

Get over it - the Frenchies are just having to lie in the bed they have made for themselves.

The really funny part is that the French said yesterday that they are going to have a remedy for the problem…by the end of the month.

Get a clue wreckless - you are starting to sound a lot like mm69 and harryass6969.

62

[quote]doogie wrote:
JohnGullick wrote:

Ok, a leftist view. Well a country with rampant nationalism is always going to have trouble assimilating immigrants. In fact any country will have trouble, witness the lack of hispanic integration in the US, or the lack of Turkish integration in Germany, or equally the BNP in the UK.

Just wanted to quickly point out that you are way off in comparing hispanic intergration in the U.S. with any of the other examples given. Not even close to being the same.

[/quote]

I don’t doubt there is enourmous integration in places, i remember doing a class on Southwestern culture and witnessing the interesting cultural amalgam which came about, but equally I remember going to my Mexican friend Francisco’s house in an area of Atlanta he called ‘the Mexican ghetto’. Some Turks are well integrated in Germany, some aren’t. The BNP only speaks for a small minority of white Brits. When I pointed to the hispanic issue I took it as read that people would not treat that as a blanket statement. If you tell me that all hispanic (or whatever ethnicity) people all intergrate straight into American towns and cities you are brazenly lying. Equally saying there is no intergration is the same but that is not what I said. I said:
‘witness the lack of hispanic integration in the US’
Implying you look at incidences of the above. It is not a blanket statement, I’m sorry if that is how it came accross.

63

Still not got the quote thing down eh?

[quote]JeffR wrote:
JohnGullick wrote:

“Ok, a leftist view. Well a country with rampant nationalism is always going to have trouble assimilating immigrants. In fact any country will have trouble, witness the lack of hispanic integration in the US,”

Riots in D.C.?[/quote]

True America doesn’t do race riots, wait…

[quote]“or the lack of Turkish integration in Germany, or equally the BNP in the UK. The moral? There is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism. As for France’s welfare system. It is huge and overly centralised. There is nothing wrong with those better off in a community paying a little extra to help those less well off achieve a better standard of living, but in France state housing and minimum wage are not what is stifling the economy. I believe it to be the work habits. France has the longest holidays in the west and the shortest work week in the west.”

Ever wonder why Americans laugh their ass off when being “lectured” by france?[/quote]

No I never wondered that.

[quote]“The French worker is incredibly powerful, they strike constantly and get their way, they sue if they fired, in short what could be a hugely useful thing (the union) has been abused. Now their country is stagnating and dragging the EU down. I think of France as the antithesis of America. In America the corporation has won, it has tax breaks, it will only look after workers to make them work more, it is unregulated. In France the worker won, but they are now lazy and hamstring companies with poor work practices. A balance must be struck, but it is not as simple as economic and corporate structure.”

“Switzerland has a huge welfare system and strong unions, yet it is one of the highest performing countries in the world economically (outperforming the US even over the last few years), as well as having a very high standard of living.”

14 people live in switzerland. They are neutral on everything. No need to defend the un-attackable.

Need to remember those factors.[/quote]

Switzerland, for its 14 people has one of the highest performing economies in the world, equally is has higher gun ownership levels than almost anywhere else? You know why? Because they have national service still and one the most highly trained and well equiped armies in the world (if on a small scale). If you’re neutral you HAVE to have a good army because you have no allies. However you argue it, its a strange, but amazing little country.

[quote]“On the flip side countless countries have absolute free markets and total corporate freedom, thanks to World Bank,yet I doubt you want to go and live in Nicaragua, or Botswana. I think this is an issue of culture. This is an issue of whether the Protestant work ethic (or equivolent) is balanced with a realisation of cultural value notwithstading exchange value.”

That is pretty (tears).[/quote]

Some of us take time to learn before we mouth off about things

[quote]“I think America has it far from correct, equally I think France has it far from correct. The only states which get close to perfection, such as Scandanavian countries, or Canada,”

OH MY GOD!!! You are certifiable.[/quote]

I probably am for giving you a considered reply

‘We do not agree’ Are you a king now, using the royal we, or are you sitting in a room full of people. Maybe there are multitudes in you mind?

I would find that sad if it were true. Many Americans fall in love with Europe, and many Europeans fall in love with America. Don’t extrapolate your xenophobic attitude to others.

There is a notable lack of gravitas/influence/electricity (metaphorically speaking) in these countries.

This amuses me greatly! That an American is lost if he can’t shop! Depending where you are there are different reasons for opening times, in Italy for instance nobody wants to walk around in the midday heat, so shops shut from noon 'til 3. In my home town opening times are limited to allow small independant shops to compete with bigger shops who can afford more staff for longer hours. It levels the playing field.

I don’t think you’ll find those hours in many countries in Europe!

That’s the goal of any traveller! Its an odd trip when you hope to get ill! When I lived in the States I broke my finger, but I had a $500 medical excess and as a student couldn’t afford to get it fixed. If I had the same incident anywhere in the EU my healthcare would’ve been free. You just have to have the correct passport.

I guess I felt that in New York. Didn’t hit me so hard in Fayetteville GA.

Kinda twisting my words there.

[quote]“are relatively small. How their standard of living could be achieved so universally in big, unwieldy countries is the holy grail. That is why Fukuyama was wrong. The end of history is a long way off.”

Are you a professor in England, john?

JeffR[/quote]

I’m concurrently doing MAs in History and International studies.

64

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and speak for the anti-war/ABB gang. The trouble in France is ultimately the U.S.'s fault. We put an end to their OFF income stream. We pretty much did away with their Iraqi weapons contracts, and we won’t let them help us rebuild Iraq.

It’s all our fault - and as Americans we should all be ashamed right now.
Well, not all Americans, but YOU should.

How funny these riots are. About as funny as someone flying a couple of planes in big buildings.

How many innocent people have died in the French riots?

Get over it - the Frenchies are just having to lie in the bed they have made for themselves.

The really funny part is that the French said yesterday that they are going to have a remedy for the problem…by the end of the month.

Get a clue wreckless - you are starting to sound a lot like mm69 and harryass6969. [/quote]

I dunno, how many innocent people have died in the 9/11 attacks.

Get over it, the yanks are just having to lie in the bed they have made for themselves.

The really funny part is that the Yanks said they are going to have a remedy for the problem…

Hey, you said it, not me.

Ask yourself this question: what’s the difference between you and the Palestinians cheering after the 9/11 attacks?

No really. What IS the difference?

65

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Ask yourself this question: what’s the difference between you and the Palestinians cheering after the 9/11 attacks?

No really. What IS the difference?[/quote]

I think the difference is obvious.

The riots in France are more akin to the riots in South Central LA, or the Watts riots in the late 60’s early 70’s - not terrorist attacks by Islamo-facists that want to destroy the great Satan.

The fact that the Frenchies invited these muslems, and africans to live in France, and then be unable to assimilate them is kind of funny. The Fench gov’t created the problem through their extreme leftist policies. Now they are coming home to roost.

I don’t expect you to see the difference. You will see what you want to see. But I haven’t heard of anyone but you comparing the crap going on in France to a terrorist attack. It may very well be more serious than I am thinking. But personally, I don’t care what happens to the French on their soil after the crap that Chirac has pulled in the last 4 years.

66

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
The immigrant population of France is told, in the high name of multiculturalism, that assimilation isn’t necessary, and this lightning rod Balkanization is the fruit of that mindset.[/quote]

Perfectly put. And Britain has the same problem. When you let a large immigrant population resist assimilation and live as a nation within a nation, particularly if they have any broad historical grievances, you are setting yourself up for disaster. Could anyone even conceive of Hispanic terrorists in the U.S.? Now try changing the “Hispanic” to “Muslim” and “the U.S.” to “France or Britain.” It’s already happened. Multiculturalism has far more baleful effects than just clogging up school curriculums.

67

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and speak for the anti-war/ABB gang. The trouble in France is ultimately the U.S.'s fault. We put an end to their OFF income stream. We pretty much did away with their Iraqi weapons contracts, and we won’t let them help us rebuild Iraq.

It’s all our fault - and as Americans we should all be ashamed right now.
Well, not all Americans, but YOU should.

How funny these riots are. About as funny as someone flying a couple of planes in big buildings.

How many innocent people have died in the French riots?

Get over it - the Frenchies are just having to lie in the bed they have made for themselves.

The really funny part is that the French said yesterday that they are going to have a remedy for the problem…by the end of the month.

Get a clue wreckless - you are starting to sound a lot like mm69 and harryass6969. [/quote]

Big bad rainjack made a funny…harryass 69? cmon now, settle down you big gorilla, its just not nice to use your mothers pet names in such a disdainful way. Your better than that, i know you are.

68

[quote]mmg_4 wrote:
Big bad rainjack made a funny…harryass 69? cmon now, settle down you big gorilla, its just not nice to use your mothers pet names in such a disdainful way. Your better than that, i know you are.[/quote]

Are momma jokes the best you have left? I know you are more than just a little bit challenged mentally - but even I had more faith in you than to lower yourself to that.

Couple that wth the fact that you fashion yourself as a ‘free thinker’ - and you are pretty much a total embarassment.

Try making an argument - or defend one - or something. Your present course makes you look sad and weak. Not that you didn;t before, but now it is even worse.

69

I’d consider myself rather left-wing, but I still think those people should be shot. Well, maybe they could use rubber bullets, but I’m talking about waaaay more than a few rubber bullets here and there. :slight_smile:

70

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Ask yourself this question: what’s the difference between you and the Palestinians cheering after the 9/11 attacks?

No really. What IS the difference?

I think the difference is obvious.

The riots in France are more akin to the riots in South Central LA, or the Watts riots in the late 60’s early 70’s - not terrorist attacks by Islamo-facists that want to destroy the great Satan.

The fact that the Frenchies invited these muslems, and africans to live in France, and then be unable to assimilate them is kind of funny. The Fench gov’t created the problem through their extreme leftist policies. Now they are coming home to roost.

I don’t expect you to see the difference. You will see what you want to see. But I haven’t heard of anyone but you comparing the crap going on in France to a terrorist attack. It may very well be more serious than I am thinking. But personally, I don’t care what happens to the French on their soil after the crap that Chirac has pulled in the last 4 years.[/quote]

You missed the question. The question was not what’s the difference between the riots in France and the 9/11 attacks. The question was: what’s the difference between you and the cheering Palestinians after the 9/11 attacks.

What crap did he pull? Are you STILL upset that he wasn’t suckered into the war in Iraq like you?

So Rainjack, when will you enlist? Or are you, like your precious president, more like an armchair warrior.

Your country needs you man. Go die in the sand.

71

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
You missed the question. The question was not what’s the difference between the riots in France and the 9/11 attacks. The question was: what’s the difference between you and the cheering Palestinians after the 9/11 attacks.[/quote]

I did answer the question. If you don’t like my answer there is little I can do about it. The Palestinians cheered a terrorist attack. What is going on in France is civil unrest. If you can’t understand that - There is no point in continuing this.

Oh I don’t know - maybe the OFF scam he was neck deep in, or the secret arms deals he had with Iraq, or the the fact that this whole mess in France is a direct result of his ultra-leftist policies. But you go ahead and give him a rim job all you want. I can’t stand the prick, and his policies have destroyed his country plain and simple.

[quote]So Rainjack, when will you enlist? Or are you, like your precious president, more like an armchair warrior.

Your country needs you man. Go die in the sand.[/quote]

I knew you were running out of arguments, but I didn’t know that the well had gone so dry that you are now forced into the “if you aren’t over there fighting, you should STFU”.

You have nothing left other than to throw out - “go die in the sand”? You are pathetic.

72

This conflict isn’t anything close to a Civil War yet, although it’s a very bad sign. I agree whole-heartedly that France is now lying in the bed it made for itself. Someone’s use of the “nation within a nation” problem was excellent-- I believe that assimilation is absolutely necessary or problems like these will be inevitable. True multiculturalism embraces different cultures for their contribution to the variety of the whole; it doesn’t ennoble differences just because they’re differences.

By the way, I’m a leftist in many ways. I’m pro-choice, favor strong environmental policy, and support social programs to create better neighborhoods, i.e. better schools, cheap housing. To some of you dumbasses, this apparently means I’m not allowed to agree with “conservative” viewpoints on France, because by defintion I support everything France does and want it insitituted here. “My side” have been championing France since the 60s, so I guess I need to accept that. I swear to Christ, politics is the new religion in this country.

I don’t see an easy solution for France, because “strongarm” tactics in the current system won’t solve the long term problem. However, I’m getting tired of angry, violent thugs obessed with their own status as cultural “victims” having their way with the world simply because they wear civilian clothing.

73

[quote]The Red Monk wrote:
This conflict isn’t anything close to a Civil War yet, although it’s a very bad sign. I agree whole-heartedly that France is now lying in the bed it made for itself. Someone’s use of the “nation within a nation” problem was excellent-- I believe that assimilation is absolutely necessary or problems like these will be inevitable. True multiculturalism embraces different cultures for their contribution to the variety of the whole; it doesn’t ennoble differences just because they’re differences.

By the way, I’m a leftist in many ways. I’m pro-choice, favor strong environmental policy, and support social programs to create better neighborhoods, i.e. better schools, cheap housing. To some of you dumbasses, this apparently means I’m not allowed to agree with “conservative” viewpoints on France, because by defintion I support everything France does and want it insitituted here. “My side” have been championing France since the 60s, so I guess I need to accept that. I swear to Christ, politics is the new religion in this country.

I don’t see an easy solution for France, because “strongarm” tactics in the current system won’t solve the long term problem. However, I’m getting tired of angry, violent thugs obessed with their own status as cultural “victims” having their way with the world simply because they wear civilian clothing.[/quote]

very good post. needs to be in bold.

74

In truth, I fear for France - I think the seeds of something terrible are being sown.

I figure that both sides will probably surrender. I mean…c’mon…It’s France we’re talking about.

[/quote]

LOL

75

I have read that France favors strong assimilation i mean they try to remove as many ethnic differences as possible just as afacet of their culture. As a poster mentioned previously, france has a history of popular revolutions,so this kind of thing is apparantly an " in " thing to do. And yah mabey my memory is getting short since we’ve hadthe LA riots and in chicago but i still think americans are more level headed about things.

Our rioters torched several buildings killed some people and we brought out the national gaurd. After that happened people started calming down and we had to rexamine ourselves as a society and whether each one of us was a racist.

On another not, I haven’t seen any news references to any french soldiers coming out to paris just more cops. The politicians look like a bunch of pussies , just bring out the troops!

76

Its not just France but Denmark too

Why don’t we listen to what they are saying, “This land belongs to us” they don’t care about assimilation or multiculturalism:

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=9596

Muslim Insurrections in France and Denmark
November 06, 2005 11:35 AM EST

By Sher Zieve ? In what appears to confirm those who have said that the French riots comprise a Muslim insurrection, Denmark?s Muslims are also involved in what is now being called an Intifada. Arutz-Sheva news service reported Sunday that Muslims in Denmark are shouting the claim: ?This land belongs to us!?
Further, a masked Muslim man in Denmark said: ?This is our area. We rule this place.? Rocks and firebombs are being thrown in Danish neighborhoods, as Muslims in France continue their violent march into the heart of Paris.

According to both French and Danish officials, it is beginning to strongly appear that these insurrections are both coordinated and planned, in attempts take down both governments. The fear of many is that the Muslims? insurrections will continue to occur throughout Europe.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1513137/posts

Several days of Muslim Riots in Denmark (Not only in France)
Jyllands Posten ^ | Offentliggjort 31. oktober 2005 03:00 | Af ERIK THOMLE

Posted on 10/31/2005 11:42:54 PM PST by Eurotwit

For several nights in a row, there has been the worst riots in ?rhus for many years.

“This land belongs to us”, declared the young rioters. Another arson attack took place sunday night.

Sunday evening the fire department needed police escorts to get in and extinguish an arsonist fire in S?ndervangs Alle.

The words of the young muslims sound like an open declaration of war against Danish society. The police must stay away. This area belongs to immigrants.

Four youngsters sit at the wall in the Rosenh?j center, sunday afternoon, self decleared spokesmen, for those groups who three nights in a row has rioted, and put business on fire.

All around the parking lot, there are swarms of cars with youngster from the immigrant community, who are celebrating the worst riots in ?rhus in several years.

Every night, 30 to 40 immigrant youngsters participated. Only two are under arrest.

It was a victory.

“We knew that you would come. We are the spokesmen”, said one young man with his face covered.

He was angry. Very angry.

Petrol though the window.

At the back of the house was a window broken, and the fire was burning wildly, probably because of petrol that had been thrown in.

The fire engines waited for police escort so they could enter in and try to put out the fires.

Bricks from the street have been thrown and crushed windowns all up the street.

The police reports that the youngsters came to the area armed with rocks that they brought in.

Rocks against a bakery.

Saturday, a 16 year old from Somalia was jailed for comitting dangerous violence, because he attacked a bakery with large rocks. One rock barely missed the bakers face.

Raids.

"We are tired of being oppressed. We are tired of the police raiding our parents. We are tired of the police stopping our cars, and raids us in public and damages our honour.?

“We are tired of the police beating up our friends, like they did this afternoon”, screams the younf man with his face covered.

He calles himself 100 percent palestinian, born in a refugee camp in Lebanon, 19 years ago, and is now unemployed in Denmark.

“The police has to stay away. This is our area. We rule this place”

And then comes the cartoons of Mohammed.

"

“We are angy to what has happened to our profet. We are tired of the Jyllands Post (Danish paper who published cartoons of Mohammed). I know that it wasn’t you, but we are not going to take this, what the Jyllands Post has done towards the profet”, he states aggressivly, and the others nod in agreement.

Planned for three weeeks.

Two of them are Turks, and it is the first time that Turks and Palestinians have joined forces, according to the spokesman.

“We have planned this for three weeks. That’s why only two were arrested on Saturday. Police tried to block us in, but we now how to get out”, he states and dissapears chewing on a piece of pizza that he has looted from Fun Pizza.

77

Policies enacted under the guise of “multi-culturalism” and “tolerance” that actively work against the assimilation of newcomers, both by denying that there is any underlying national culture and by discouraging the adoption of a common language, will end up causing the death of the destination society, no matter what country you’re referencing, if they are combined with an essentially open borders policy that doesn’t restrict the number of people who will be let in but not assimilated.

And by “death” I mean changed into something unrecognizable and unrelated to the initial society, except perhaps in name only.

While I of course realize that societies by their very nature are very fluid entities, they do have core values and identifications that bind them together. Giving up the defense and promotion of such is foolhardy.

At the very least, you need to promote enforcement of the laws with equality, not with any eye toward being “inoffensive,” especially with regard to preserving the traditional individual freedoms of speech/expression, and to avoid changing/modifying cultural milestones in the attempt to be inclusive (i.e. getting rid of “Christmas” references in favor of “Winter Holidays”, which waters down the meaning and makes it less, not more of a societal holiday – the original people don’t like it, and the new people don’t see what’s so special about it anyway).

In addition, you need to enforce a national language – making accomodations for people who don’t know English/French whatever may make sense in certain, limited circumstances (i.e. Emergency response services), but when such accomodations are made more broadly you simply move further toward assuring that people will never learn the majority language, and will be consigned to language/cultural ghettos.

In essence, it is my strongly held belief that many of the salad-bowl-type policies that discourage assimilation may have been well intended, but they are actively harming both the destination societies and the immigrants themselves. Though I suppose you’ll continue to hear about how immigrants who don’t know English/French and won’t or don’t assimilate to the majority culture are simply victims of racism or some other -ism when they don’t succeed and are caught in a poverty cycle, rather than placing the blame squarely where it belongs, which is with the touchy-feely anti-assimilation multiculturalists policies that cause it.

78

This isn’t really that different than what went on in the Balkans in the late 90’s. The only difference was that Milosevic handled it by genocide. What happened there was that muslim population got a foothold in a certain area through years of having lots and lots of babies in a certain area. After over populating the area they wanted it all to themselves. (sarcasm on)Hey, let’s not forget that the islamic religion doesn’t breed hate and violence but teaches tolerance.(sarcasm off) I suppose it’s only a matter of time before chirac is begging for international help.

79

Whoever loses the next war has to keep France.
My father hit Omaha with 89 other guys; there were 3 left when the war ended (they were in Pilzner, Chezchoslovakia looking for beer, of course :). I swear France is just one fucked up country.
Didn’t the French create the phony intelligence that led to the current war. Read that somewhere…

80

After seeing what happened in New Orleans with the looting, and now in France…the link is clear: It’s the French language connection.

Canada, beware. You are next.