Forum Name Change

Off Topic
101

TC,

I appreciate that this is just the first step in a number of changes that you guys are making to the site and I’m intrigued to know what’s going to be happening, but for what it’s worth, so far -

As Malinda said, I think the t-vixens were initially taken aback that the changes were made without warning and “our” section had disappeared. Yes, yes, I know it hadn’t actually disappeared but we had to go searching for it!

I think the creation of a separate Figure competitor’s section was really well received by most females (I don’t want to speak on behalf of all the ladies, but it certainly seemed that way) given that, as Jana pointed out, not all the women here had a Figure competitor goal in mind, and so there were now two different areas where women could post depending on what their goals were.

Now both of those areas have been amalgamated into one forum that seems to be largely geared towards the figure competitors. Of course, as you said:

[quote]TC wrote:

If a female is a bodybuilder, she’s welcome to post in the “Bodybuilding” forum on T-Nation. If she’s in the strength sports, she should post in the “Strength Sports” forum.

However, if she’s a figure competitor or relates more strongly to figure competitors, she now has a place that’s dedicated exclusively to her needs.

[/quote]

I totally understand that BUT the big difference between the regular Bodybuilding forum/ Strength forum/ Muscle Sorority forums was that quite simply the muscle sorority was a really incredibly supportive place to post. There was little or no trolling, and there was a huge amount of respect and camaraderie between posters. Women could post there safe in the knowledge that they wouldn’t be vilified or ridiculed.

Would women feel the same confidence about posting in the bodybuilding/ strength sport forums? Well maybe, or maybe not, if the forums retain this structure we won’t have much of a choice, and so be it.

But personally, I really liked having the option to post in a forum aimed at women that wasn’t just about Figure Competing.

102

[quote]christine wrote:
So figure competitors aren’t strength athletes now? Didn’t we just have a huge discussion on whether or not a figure competitor was an athlete? Or was that a fitness competitor?

So, what kind of athlete is a figure competitor if not a strength one then?[/quote]

Just because something falls into a general category does not mean it does not make sense to give that something its own area. E.g., strongman training is a strength sport.

But that does not mean that it would make no sense to set up a strongman section of its own. (It wouldn’t make sense, in fact, but that’s only because there aren’t many strongmen on the forum. If there were more, then it would absolutely make sense to start a separate strongman section.)

103

[quote]christine wrote:
So figure competitors aren’t strength athletes now? Didn’t we just have a huge discussion on whether or not a figure competitor was an athlete? Or was that a fitness competitor?

So, what kind of athlete is a figure competitor if not a strength one then?

[/quote]

I’d say a figure competitor is the same kind of athlete as a competitive bodybuilder.

The actual weight lifted, or reps done in a certain amount of time do not determine the winner.

104

[quote]TC wrote:
We’re doing stuff slowly, though, so as to not cause people to experience anxiety.[/quote]

How’s that working out for ya… :slight_smile:

105

[quote]TC wrote:

I don’t want to seem dismissive of some of the viewpoints expressed in this thread, but truthfully, any change we’ve ever made has been met with huge resistance.

I gotta’ tell you, though, I’m hugely surprised at the response so far. I really, really, didn’t see it coming.

[/quote]

It’s simple TC,

Many of us here consider T-Nation as a virtual second home. We’re comfortable here. Then suddenly, I feel like I walked through my front door and found the house remodeled and refurnished while I was gone for a quick walk. It doesn’t matter (at first) that the new layout is more beautiful AND efficient. It’s different. It was unexpected. You SCARED US!

After taking the time to figure out the new links and navigation to my favorite areas I will happily admit… I’m already liking the new format. It only took a day. Let everyone adapt to the changes and I’m sure they’ll also become comfy in their new digs.

Next time you plan changes though… A little more heads up would be nice. You know how sensitive us muscleheads can be! ;^)

Keep up the good work T-Nation.

106

[quote]TC wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

Most of the women who’ve spoken up would like the forums to remain a part of T-Nation. Posts from them to show up in most discussed topics. And them to be subforums of T-Nation.

This could happen and there could still be a separate login where only the female-specific forums show up if that’s seen as more desireable form an additional business standpoint.

I don’t want to seem dismissive of some of the viewpoints expressed in this thread, but truthfully, any change we’ve ever made has been met with huge resistance.

I’m going to tip you off to something. The changes we’ve made in the last couple of weeks? They’re NOTHING compared to what’s coming.

To paraphrase Tim, the changes we’re going to make to the site are like converting a bicycle to a helicopter.

We’re doing stuff slowly, though, so as to not cause people to experience anxiety.

Believe me, it’s cool stuff…but give everything a chance. Nothing is ever concrete and irreversible.
And, if this current shift of the “Sorority” forum turns out to be a mistake, we’ll change it.

I gotta’ tell you, though, I’m hugely surprised at the response so far. I really, really, didn’t see it coming.

And the women who say we’ve given them the “basement”? In my mind, we’ve given you a Penthouse and we’re in the process of adding on a huge kitchen (literally) with a live-in chef. (You’ll see.)

We fully expect the MWA site to be as big or BIGGER than T-Nation, so don’t think for a minute that we regard it as poor real estate!
[/quote]

No worries TC. I don’t doubt that the MWA site will be great. Just seems to me that most of us like having the women here, and they like being here. Not that the two can never meet with the changes. It’s really just a click away to get between the sites. But I personally like it as one all-inclusive site. But I can understand that there might be business reasons for Biotest to split it up.

107

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
What I want to know is what the hell is BigRagoo going to do now?[/quote]

HEY!!! I love the women. And they seem to reciprocate…or at least tolerate. None of them ever gave me the “fuck off” feeling.

Oh shit…was this all my fault???

108

[quote]christine wrote:
TC wrote:
christine wrote:

ALL women are more than welcome on T-Nation. They can have as large a voice as they’d like right here.

If, for some reason, female strength athletes want to talk to other female strength athletes, I encourage you to start a thread.

Here’s a rotten analogy. T-Nation is now a unisex bathroom. Women are welcome, as long as they can stand bathroom talk and raised toilet seats.

Muscle With Attitude, however, is set up to help women who want to look like Figure Competitors.

It’s not a unisex bathroom, even though there are a few men hanging outside the door.

So figure competitors aren’t strength athletes now? Didn’t we just have a huge discussion on whether or not a figure competitor was an athlete? Or was that a fitness competitor?

So, what kind of athlete is a figure competitor if not a strength one then?

[/quote]

In the vernacular of the sport, “Strength athletes” are generally power lifters or strongman competitors.

It’s a time worn, accepted definition.

Bodybuilders, either male or female, are not considered strength athletes.

109

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
TC wrote:
We’re doing stuff slowly, though, so as to not cause people to experience anxiety.

How’s that working out for ya… :)[/quote]

My liver hurts.

110

[quote]TC wrote:
eengrms76 wrote:
TC wrote:
We’re doing stuff slowly, though, so as to not cause people to experience anxiety.

How’s that working out for ya… :slight_smile:

My liver hurts.
[/quote]

Poor TC. I’ll adjust. Just let us vent for a bit.

111

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
christine wrote:
So figure competitors aren’t strength athletes now? Didn’t we just have a huge discussion on whether or not a figure competitor was an athlete? Or was that a fitness competitor?

So, what kind of athlete is a figure competitor if not a strength one then?

I’d say a figure competitor is the same kind of athlete as a competitive bodybuilder.

The actual weight lifted, or reps done in a certain amount of time do not determine the winner.[/quote]

I understand that. I really didn’t mean to get this going again, but I see more similarities than differences between most of these categories.

TC was saying that the MWA was for figure competitors.

As far as I can tell, the biggest difference between a strength athlete and a body builder is diet. Sure a body builder will want to achieve a certain symmetry, and focus on specific muscles, but that is fine tuning. To get to the point where you are able to start fine tuning your physique, you have to have a physique to fine tune. The same can be said for a strength athlete.

So you can say that a figure competitor is like a bodybuilder, but what kind of athletes are these again?

I just don’t really understand why a whole site for figure competitors (and the women who want to look like one). That really doesn’t sound like a welcoming place to me. To me it sounds like a place that was designed by a man who thinks that the goal of all women is to be oogled.

I did really liked it before they consolidated the threads though.

112

I’ll echo what many have been saying in that I’m more bothered by how this whole situation has been sold than by the actual changes.

I do think there should be a forum on this site for female athletes who want to post in such a section.

Much like difference between the men’s bathroom and the women bathroom, the sorority has always managed to stay quite clean in comparison to the male and male dominated sections.

113

Since I don’t have time for a long post, I’ll just say that I’m with the girls on this one.

Sometimes a click away feels like miles.

114

[quote]g’em wrote:
TC,

I totally understand that BUT the big difference between the regular Bodybuilding forum/ Strength forum/ Muscle Sorority forums was that quite simply the muscle sorority was a really incredibly supportive place to post. There was little or no trolling, and there was a huge amount of respect and camaraderie between posters. Women could post there safe in the knowledge that they wouldn’t be vilified or ridiculed.

Would women feel the same confidence about posting in the bodybuilding/ strength sport forums? Well maybe, or maybe not, if the forums retain this structure we won’t have much of a choice, and so be it.

But personally, I really liked having the option to post in a forum aimed at women that wasn’t just about Figure Competing.

[/quote]

Part of the reason behind this was our desire to consolidate, to tidy things up. That’s why some of the other forums were rolled into what was formerly known as the “Building a Better Body” forum.

However, I understand your point.

We’d like to give this a chance to see how it pans out, but in the meantime, if you want to talk to other like-minded females in T-Nation, you could start a new thread in the appropriate forum that called out to women in the title.

For example, “Women, How Do You Feel About Westside Training?”

115

[quote]christine wrote:
As far as I can tell, the biggest difference between a strength athlete and a body builder is diet. [/quote]

No. Really, no. It’s an entirely different universe. Different diet, different training, different equipment. Pretty much different everything.

Pick up a copy of MILO and then pick up a copy of a random muscle mag (or read T-Nation). Go to IronMind.com and look at the equipment and ask yourself when the last time you saw a bodybuilder use that equipment.

Night and day.

116

[quote]christine wrote:

I just don’t really understand why a whole site for figure competitors (and the women who want to look like one). That really doesn’t sound like a welcoming place to me. To me it sounds like a place that was designed by a man who thinks that the goal of all women is to be oogled.

I did really liked it before they consolidated the threads though.

[/quote]

“Figure” is by far the fastest growing segment of the entire weight-training market. Nothing else comes close.

If it doesn’t appeal to you, that’s fine. You’re more than welcome to continue to “live” on T-Nation.

We’ll continue to have plenty of information that appeals to your interests.

117

[quote]TC wrote:

You’re a butthead, plain and simple.

If a female is a bodybuilder, she’s welcome to post in the “Bodybuilding” forum on T-Nation. If she’s in the strength sports, she should post in the “Strength Sports” forum.[/quote]

Butthead? Maybe. But that has dick to do with what you said - both in print and on tape.

Why wasn’t it presented that way from the beginning? First it was the trolls, then it was the way that the author were treated, now it’s all about giving the figure competitors their own special little place to congregate.

I stand by my statement that you should have just come out in the beginning and said that was the deal.

But I’m the butthead.

[quote]T-Nation is for bodybuilders. Muscle With Attitude is for Figure Competitors or women who want to look like them.

Last time I looked, there weren’t any male figure competitors, but maybe you want to be the first. In that case, I agree, we’ve discriminated and haven’t been all-inclusive.
[/quote]

You need to monitor your site a little closer. There was thread not 3 weeks ago that asked why there wasn’t a “male figure competition”.

You can’ swing a dead cat around here without hitting someone that thinks Tyler fucking Durden is the ultimate male physique.

118

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
…
That, to me seems like what is going on here. Biotest did this as a way to get their female T-Nation customers over to this MWA site, creating a sort of T-Nation type deal over there, where having an established member base lends credibiity to the products.

Bottom line, it’s about the bottom line.[/quote]

I agree with you mostly, but I think this point is incorrect. I think they broke it out to make it easier to sell to women who aren’t already T-Nation customers.

Seriously, some women who would be very into the articles and buying supplements here are freaked out when they log on to the main site, and they lose potential customers.

I pimp this stuff to my friends and co-workers all the time, and often I will get people to log on to check out a supplement or a workout, and I then watch Biotest lose potential sales to people who are freaked out by the hard-core site (or maybe I’m just not persuasive enough? Who knows…).

I suppose they could set up a completely different site geared toward women and not make it a spin-off, but I would think that would cost more to develop, and you’d still have people complaining about stuff available on one site and not the other.

To the extent they want to expand their market – a completely rational business perspective – I’d much rather have them develop a secondary site aimed at those who might freak out than water down and sissify the hard-core site.

Hopefully the ladies who are currently customers and are cool enough not to be freaked out by T-Nation won’t be too upset by what I think is a particularly good business decision, especially if any technical bugs are addressed. A few extra mouse clicks isn’t much of a price to pay.

119

[quote]TC wrote:
…

And the women who say we’ve given them the “basement”? In my mind, we’ve given you a Penthouse and we’re in the process of adding on a huge kitchen (literally) with a live-in chef. (You’ll see.)

…
[/quote]

Yes, I was hugely jealous about the chef…

http://www.musclewithattitude.com/readTopicMwa.do?id=1498939

120

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
TC wrote:
We’re doing stuff slowly, though, so as to not cause people to experience anxiety.

How’s that working out for ya… :)[/quote]

That right there is some funny shit (or should write s*** with all the changes going on).