Great post, Jana.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
It seems the management of T-Nation can’t win huh?
They give the girls their own space and they’re pissed off about it.
Look- it does say T-Nation at the top of my screen. It doesn’t say “E nation” right?
With that said,
if there are women here who want to join in the discussion on any of the threads, no problem. I don’t think anyone ever said that you couldn’t. And I think many enjoy a woman’s perspective.
So now you not only have that option but a new area all for yourselves.
Stop bitching, you sound like a bunch of women…OOPS. [/quote]
Who in the holy fuck are you to tell long time members where they are or are not welcome?
You have been a member for a fucking month. Show some fucking respect to those females that have actually contributed something to this site.
Why not start a separate forum for the idiot newbies such as this guy? Motherfucker makes one rent payment and thinks he owns the damn building.
[quote]Stuey wrote:
T-Nation is a great site and a great resource, it is also a business.
Having a seperate, more friendly women’s section will mean it is more accessible than being buried away in the depths of a hardcore (non-gender specific…) training site. More accessible = more members = higher “footfall” to the store = more revenue.
It simply makes good financial sense.
If you are a woman and still want to post on T-Nation, do so.
I do however take issue with the removal of the beginner section. I thought it was good to have a relatively safe place for noobs to ask basic questions and post progress logs without getting flamed quite so much.[/quote]
Good post.
And remember folks, everything is still 100% free.
That said, I hope I don’t bulk up my clicking finger with the extra steps it will take to get over and peruse the fitness competitors threads…
[quote]tveddy wrote:
I feel like I’m an onlooker in the old proverb where someone is given a brick of gold, and they respond by saying its too heavy.
I come to this site and they always have new articles. Some are useful to me, others aren’t. They are trying to make it so that it is filtered to be more useful towards gender, and all that people can say is that its sexist.
Why can’t anyone be grateful anymore? If I were TC I would just pull the forums and say to hell with it. Is that what you want? Do you want them to stop giving us our bar of gold?[/quote]
Don’t know about you - but I think that I have paid for this “bar of gold”.
I have learned as much from the forums as I have from the articles.
This is a stupid move plain and simple.
Funny that none of the women on here voicing their complaints over this issue were never asked. They were told what was best for them.
But it’s all about the trolls, remember?
[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
I for one don’t mind. Every time I wandered into the Figure Competitor forum and my girlfriend noticed me looking, she’d say something snarky. That’s the last thing I need more fucking aggravation.
[/quote]
You need a more understanding girlfriend, but I understand your point.
Jana has the best post in this thread. T-Nation hasn’t done a great job of catering to female bodybuilders so far by repeateadly implying that they are on steroids and “too big”. Sometimes the only difference between bodybuilders and figure athletes is that bodybuilders flex and athletes don’t.
Second-best post to PushHarder. 
Third: Professor X. I hate when it happens to me, too. :‘’'-(
Just a dumb thought, but shouldn’t MWA link to F-Heit.com? Particularly its discussion forum. Seems like a good place for the females who aren’t quite ready for MWA.
Male beginners need someplace to go, but changing the name to “Bodybuilding” and tossing out the 35+ forum are steps in the right direction.
Well, at least we still have the steroids section.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
tveddy wrote:
I feel like I’m an onlooker in the old proverb where someone is given a brick of gold, and they respond by saying its too heavy.
I come to this site and they always have new articles. Some are useful to me, others aren’t. They are trying to make it so that it is filtered to be more useful towards gender, and all that people can say is that its sexist.
Why can’t anyone be grateful anymore? If I were TC I would just pull the forums and say to hell with it. Is that what you want? Do you want them to stop giving us our bar of gold?
Don’t know about you - but I think that I have paid for this “bar of gold”.
I have learned as much from the forums as I have from the articles.
This is a stupid move plain and simple.
Funny that none of the women on here voicing their complaints over this issue were never asked. They were told what was best for them.
But it’s all about the trolls, remember? [/quote]
You’re a butthead, plain and simple.
If a female is a bodybuilder, she’s welcome to post in the “Bodybuilding” forum on T-Nation. If she’s in the strength sports, she should post in the “Strength Sports” forum.
However, if she’s a figure competitor or relates more strongly to figure competitors, she now has a place that’s dedicated exclusively to her needs.
T-Nation is for bodybuilders. Muscle With Attitude is for Figure Competitors or women who want to look like them.
Last time I looked, there weren’t any male figure competitors, but maybe you want to be the first. In that case, I agree, we’ve discriminated and haven’t been all-inclusive.
[quote]tveddy wrote:
I feel like I’m an onlooker in the old proverb where someone is given a brick of gold, and they respond by saying its too heavy.
I come to this site and they always have new articles. Some are useful to me, others aren’t. They are trying to make it so that it is filtered to be more useful towards gender, and all that people can say is that its sexist.
Why can’t anyone be grateful anymore? If I were TC I would just pull the forums and say to hell with it. Is that what you want? Do you want them to stop giving us our bar of gold?[/quote]
T-Nation’s been a great site. And it remains so. I thought the last rounds of changes was great. All improvements. I don’t think so this time. We had a bar of gold. Now we have a bar of silver.
If we think it, we have every right to say so. Pulling the forums is not in Biotest’s interest. Why would they do that because everyone isn’t 100% kow-towing? That wouldn’t help sell products.
[quote]TC wrote:
rainjack wrote:
tveddy wrote:
I feel like I’m an onlooker in the old proverb where someone is given a brick of gold, and they respond by saying its too heavy.
I come to this site and they always have new articles. Some are useful to me, others aren’t. They are trying to make it so that it is filtered to be more useful towards gender, and all that people can say is that its sexist.
Why can’t anyone be grateful anymore? If I were TC I would just pull the forums and say to hell with it. Is that what you want? Do you want them to stop giving us our bar of gold?
Don’t know about you - but I think that I have paid for this “bar of gold”.
I have learned as much from the forums as I have from the articles.
This is a stupid move plain and simple.
Funny that none of the women on here voicing their complaints over this issue were never asked. They were told what was best for them.
But it’s all about the trolls, remember?
You’re a butthead, plain and simple.
If a female is a bodybuilder, she’s welcome to post in the “Bodybuilding” forum on T-Nation. If she’s in the strength sports, she should post in the “Strength Sports” forum.
However, if she’s a figure competitor or relates more strongly to figure competitors, she now has a place that’s dedicated exclusively to her needs.
T-Nation is for bodybuilders. Muscle With Attitude is for Figure Competitors or women who want to look like them.
Last time I looked, there weren’t any male figure competitors, but maybe you want to be the first. In that case, I agree, we’ve discriminated and haven’t been all-inclusive.
[/quote]
Most of the women who’ve spoken up would like the forums to remain a part of T-Nation. Posts from them to show up in most discussed topics. And them to be subforums of T-Nation. This could happen and there could still be a separate login where only the female-specific forums show up if that’s seen as more desireable form an additional business standpoint.
Obviously since I’m a guy I’m not going to totally understand this issue but…
It doesn’t say “men’s bodybuilding” or “men’s strength sports.” Can’t women just post in those forums? I mean, does the advice given on the Westside/Powerlifting thread not apply well to both genders? I figured the figure competitor stuff was seperate because that’s kind of a comepetition unique to women.
Personally I think the decision is more motivated by money, as these things usually are. Biotest is trying to corner the market on supplement products for women, which probably is a pretty profitable move.
Having this sudden, massive influx of figure competitors (did anybody not find it a little weird that all of the sudden there was like 50 accomplsihed figure competitors on this site?) posting on T-Nation and now this MWA site is pretty much the same thing that other supplement companies do when they hire bodybuilders to pitch their products to teenage guys, or the same thing shoe companies do, etc. etc.
That, to me seems like what is going on here. Biotest did this as a way to get their female T-Nation customers over to this MWA site, creating a sort of T-Nation type deal over there, where having an established member base lends credibiity to the products.
Bottom line, it’s about the bottom line.
[quote]TC wrote:
T-Nation is for bodybuilders. Muscle With Attitude is for Figure Competitors or women who want to look like them.
[/quote]
So you’re banking on the idea that specifically catering to Figure Competitors (or women who want to look like them) will be more lucrative for Biotest than giving a voice to all female athletes?
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Most of the women who’ve spoken up would like the forums to remain a part of T-Nation. Posts from them to show up in most discussed topics. And them to be subforums of T-Nation.
This could happen and there could still be a separate login where only the female-specific forums show up if that’s seen as more desireable form an additional business standpoint.
[/quote]
I don’t want to seem dismissive of some of the viewpoints expressed in this thread, but truthfully, any change we’ve ever made has been met with huge resistance.
I’m going to tip you off to something. The changes we’ve made in the last couple of weeks? They’re NOTHING compared to what’s coming.
To paraphrase Tim, the changes we’re going to make to the site are like converting a bicycle to a helicopter.
We’re doing stuff slowly, though, so as to not cause people to experience anxiety.
Believe me, it’s cool stuff…but give everything a chance. Nothing is ever concrete and irreversible.
And, if this current shift of the “Sorority” forum turns out to be a mistake, we’ll change it.
I gotta’ tell you, though, I’m hugely surprised at the response so far. I really, really, didn’t see it coming.
And the women who say we’ve given them the “basement”? In my mind, we’ve given you a Penthouse and we’re in the process of adding on a huge kitchen (literally) with a live-in chef. (You’ll see.)
We fully expect the MWA site to be as big or BIGGER than T-Nation, so don’t think for a minute that we regard it as poor real estate!
TC said,
“I really, really, didn’t see it coming.”
I deal with people in my job and this has pretty much always been my experience. You think you’re doing the right thing, but lo and behold!
jpb
[quote]christine wrote:
TC wrote:
T-Nation is for bodybuilders. Muscle With Attitude is for Figure Competitors or women who want to look like them.
So you’re banking on the idea that specifically catering to Figure Competitors (or women who want to look like them) will be more lucrative for Biotest than giving a voice to all female athletes?
[/quote]
I would guess that if they can pull it off, the MWA sales will dwarf T-Nation sales within 1-2 years easily.
[quote]christine wrote:
TC wrote:
T-Nation is for bodybuilders. Muscle With Attitude is for Figure Competitors or women who want to look like them.
So you’re banking on the idea that specifically catering to Figure Competitors (or women who want to look like them) will be more lucrative for Biotest than giving a voice to all female athletes?
[/quote]
ALL women are more than welcome on T-Nation. They can have as large a voice as they’d like right here.
If, for some reason, female strength athletes want to talk to other female strength athletes, I encourage you to start a thread.
Here’s a rotten analogy. T-Nation is now a unisex bathroom. Women are welcome, as long as they can stand bathroom talk and raised toilet seats.
Muscle With Attitude, however, is set up to help women who want to look like Figure Competitors.
It’s not a unisex bathroom, even though there are a few men hanging outside the door.
This is where I beleive you are in error – we did not ask for this gold brick! We were not unhappy with our forum. Many of us Vixens post in the T-Vixen forum and others. I read/scan all of the forums each week. I for one also welcome both T Men and T Vixens to post on any thread I start.
Malinda
[quote]tveddy wrote:
I feel like I’m an onlooker in the old proverb where someone is given a brick of gold, and they respond by saying its too heavy.
I come to this site and they always have new articles. Some are useful to me, others aren’t. They are trying to make it so that it is filtered to be more useful towards gender, and all that people can say is that its sexist.
Why can’t anyone be grateful anymore? If I were TC I would just pull the forums and say to hell with it. Is that what you want? Do you want them to stop giving us our bar of gold?[/quote]
[quote]TC wrote:
I gotta’ tell you, though, I’m hugely surprised at the response so far. I really, really, didn’t see it coming.
[/quote]
Think about it this way, if people are not complaining/raising concerns, they likely don’t give a shit about the site.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Having this sudden, massive influx of figure competitors (did anybody not find it a little weird that all of the sudden there was like 50 accomplsihed figure competitors on this site?) posting on T-Nation and now this MWA site is pretty much the same thing that other supplement companies do when they hire bodybuilders to pitch their products to teenage guys, or the same thing shoe companies do, etc. etc.
That, to me seems like what is going on here. Biotest did this as a way to get their female T-Nation customers over to this MWA site, creating a sort of T-Nation type deal over there, where having an established member base lends credibiity to the products.
Bottom line, it’s about the bottom line.[/quote]
Want to hear something freaky? We signed TWO Figure competitors to contracts. Another one or two participate on the site for supplements.
The rest just found the site.
We haven’t even advertised.
TC,
Don’t get us wrong. I think alot of the problem came in with us not being able to locate it. It “appeared” as if we were gone for good. I personally enjoy reading both sexes view points on a subject.
It also appears as some one put it that we are regarded as “danty” – and believe me that is a first for me to be called, cause I am far from danty!
I think it will be resolved – but first appearances is that we are now the step children.
Malinda
[quote]TC wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Most of the women who’ve spoken up would like the forums to remain a part of T-Nation. Posts from them to show up in most discussed topics. And them to be subforums of T-Nation.
This could happen and there could still be a separate login where only the female-specific forums show up if that’s seen as more desireable form an additional business standpoint.
I don’t want to seem dismissive of some of the viewpoints expressed in this thread, but truthfully, any change we’ve ever made has been met with huge resistance.
I’m going to tip you off to something. The changes we’ve made in the last couple of weeks? They’re NOTHING compared to what’s coming.
To paraphrase Tim, the changes we’re going to make to the site are like converting a bicycle to a helicopter.
We’re doing stuff slowly, though, so as to not cause people to experience anxiety.
Believe me, it’s cool stuff…but give everything a chance. Nothing is ever concrete and irreversible.
And, if this current shift of the “Sorority” forum turns out to be a mistake, we’ll change it.
I gotta’ tell you, though, I’m hugely surprised at the response so far. I really, really, didn’t see it coming.
And the women who say we’ve given them the “basement”? In my mind, we’ve given you a Penthouse and we’re in the process of adding on a huge kitchen (literally) with a live-in chef. (You’ll see.)
We fully expect the MWA site to be as big or BIGGER than T-Nation, so don’t think for a minute that we regard it as poor real estate!
[/quote]
[quote]TC wrote:
christine wrote:
ALL women are more than welcome on T-Nation. They can have as large a voice as they’d like right here.
If, for some reason, female strength athletes want to talk to other female strength athletes, I encourage you to start a thread.
Here’s a rotten analogy. T-Nation is now a unisex bathroom. Women are welcome, as long as they can stand bathroom talk and raised toilet seats.
Muscle With Attitude, however, is set up to help women who want to look like Figure Competitors.
It’s not a unisex bathroom, even though there are a few men hanging outside the door.
[/quote]
So figure competitors aren’t strength athletes now? Didn’t we just have a huge discussion on whether or not a figure competitor was an athlete? Or was that a fitness competitor?
So, what kind of athlete is a figure competitor if not a strength one then?