For Ye Christian Ones...

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

Most people who are educated in science are quite aware of how much we do not know, how much we do not understand.

For instance, we don’t know the origins of the universe, though there are some theories – and those theories are currently changing.

I don’t think it’s at all stupid to “find God in the gaps” of our knowledge, as it has been described by some people. I certainly don’t think it’s any more random than hard-core atheists who propose infinite dimensions, with not a single piece of observable or provable evidence of any other dimensions, in order to try to give grounding to their belief that life on earth is like a monkey typing Hamlet (if infinite monkeys were typing on infinite typewriters, one would eventually type Hamlet by random chance – if there were infinite dimensions, eventually we would have one with a planet with perfect conditions for life by random chance) – and they needed it, once physics began to demonstrate that the universe is not endless, and might even be subject to different laws of physics in different areas.

I don’t think faith in religion is any more illogical, uneducated or dense than faith in anything else unproven, and likely unprovable (at least in our lifetimes).

I myself am a “God in the gaps” kind of person. I don’t think the whole of the Bible is meant to be read literally – I think if you believe it is divinely inspired you have to account for the inability of the inspired writer to describe what he or she “saw” – but I do believe in God. I think God could have created the world any way he wanted, including via evolution. In other words, I don’t think God is limited by either my imagination or my thinking skills, whatever they may be.

82

last I checked a lot of religious groups have been trying to promote the theory of Intelligent Design as opposed to creationism to try and take on the theory of evolution.

Also, please view the following articles as they have great bearing on this discussion:

sorry, couldn’t help myself, lemme try and find that article about how gravity is a tool of satan while i am at it…

83

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Some of you guys think it’s cool for you to post, “Jesus is a myth” for no apparent reason.[/quote]

The opposite also applies. Why does someone feel compelled to post that Jesus is the toughest man alive, or would be the ultimate fighter or whatever in the threads about those subjects? Why bring in Jesus for no apparent reason?

Pot, meet kettle.

84

www.landoverbaptist.org is a parody site.

85

[quote]veruvius wrote:
We all believe in the theory of gravity. I do, at least.[/quote]

It’s the LAW of gravity. It’s the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd LAW of thermodynamics. It’s the gas LAWS.

You really need to read the books they give you. At least show up for class.

86

[quote]rainjack wrote:
veruvius wrote:
We all believe in the theory of gravity. I do, at least.

It’s the LAW of gravity. It’s the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd LAW of thermodynamics. It’s the gas LAWS.

You really need to read the books they give you. At least show up for class.

[/quote]

oh, please do tell me about thermodynamics, oh wise rainjack. I certainly wouldn’t know anything about that. I meant relativity, anyways. I’m sorry I’ve upset you. I’ll sacrifice an atheist for you.

87

There’s this thing you see, known as a Thermos™. You put hot stuff in it, it stays hot. You put cold shit in it, it stays cold.

That, in a pinch, is what is known as “Thermosdynamics”.

By the way, putting coffee and a popsicle in it at the same time doesn’t work. We’re still figuring that one out.

88

Too bad we wont see you around after life on earth pookie.

89

[quote]veruvius wrote:
oh, please do tell me about thermodynamics, oh wise rainjack. I certainly wouldn’t know anything about that. I meant relativity, anyways. I’m sorry I’ve upset you. I’ll sacrifice an atheist for you.[/quote]

It’s the law that refutes the theory of evolution. “Energy can neither be created, nor destroyed, only changed.”

90

[quote]XCelticX wrote:
First off, don’t take this as a guy trying to piss off and flame you because you’re Christian. I’m looking for a good discussion…

There is not a single shred of anthropological or scientific evidence supporting many of the stories and beliefs associated with Christianity:

Noah’s Ark - Do you honestly believe that the oceans of the world suddenly increased in size astronomically, engulfing all land on Earth? Furthermore, do you believe that 2 of EVERY species on Earth were taken onto one ship, then were later released, once the waters suddenly disappeared? That would be a boat filled with millions of animals, big and small, very impossible…

Why is it that the accounts of miracles so often quoted and glamorized in Churches today only exist in the Bible? It seems like SOMEONE would’ve noticed those amazing things that supposedly were occuring, and that someone would have wrote about it. Yet still, the only ones who attested to that being true were the ones who wrote in the Bible.

Creation - So God was around forever, but sometime during this ‘forever’ he suddenly decided, “Hey, I’m gonna make some light.” Then, “Hey, It’d be cool if there was a rock in space called Earth. I better throw in water and land to. Maybe some plants and animals and humans to entertain me further…” etc…

Some Christians now believe in creationism through evolution, that is, God created the world as we know it through the process that wasn’t theorized until 150 years ago by an athiest. I kind of see this as rationalizing “well, evolutionary theory is gaining more evidence and proof every year, why don’t we just mix it with what we believe?”

Others deny it completely. Some even believe that the Earth, and every form of life living on it, were created only 10,000 or so years ago. The very rocks we walk on attest to the Earth being BILLIONS of years old. In addition to that, the fossilized remains of millions of species that lived in the past litter the Earth. Most of these fossils are carbon-dated to millions of years ago, pretty far reaching compared to 10,000. Also, even if God created the world through this long evolutionary method, who were Adam and Eve? Some speculate those names to symbolize the 2 origional groups of humans. But there were no 2 origional groups of humans. From anthropological evidence, it appears that primates emerged from the rest of the mammals roughly 50 million years ago or so(these dates may be a bit off from what’s agreed on by most of the experts in the area). These creatures were very smart compared to the other organisms on the Earth at the time. As they continues to evolve, some became more and more intelligent. The line that formed the great apes broke away from the other primates 25-30 million years ago. Think of the main line of the great apes as the chimpanzee line. From 25-30 million years ago to now, the great ape species broke away from the chimp line one by one. First, orangutans did, then gorillas, then humans, then bonobos, and modern chimps are the evolutionary result of that origional line(this is the accepted figure among most expert anthropologists). We broke from the chimp like about 5 million years ago. It was a slow progression to our modern state, and it can be followed by fossils. The human like that broke off started, of course, as the same apes chimps were 5 million years ago. They slowly moved from quadrupedalism to bipedalism(walking on 2 legs), and the size of the brain slowly increased. Those physiological changes became more and more like us, till we reach the point we’re at today. How does the Bible explain those fossils? Why doesn’t the Bible have similar critical evidence to support its claims/stories/beliefs?

It appears to me that the only ‘evidence’ Christians can throw out to support their beliefs is their faith, which is, of course, not evidence.

If you think it is evidence, what about the hundreds of other religions around the world? Every culture and social group created some form of religion, what makes yours so special? They are all founded on and carried on by faith. If faith is such a powerful true force, then all of them are founded on truth. If your religion is true because of your faith, theirs is true because of theirs. Oh, maybe its because Christians’ faith are worth more than, say, Muslims’ faith.

Your thoughts/replies?[/quote]

I am not going to go any further than the Noah’s ark story. Get your facts right about other cultures stories. Then I will move on to the rest of your ideas.

Ancient cultures that have a flood legend

Australian Aboriginals
Biami people living in Papua New Guinea
Flood of gligamesh found in the library of Ninevah
Havasupai Indians
Maori people of New Zealand

These are just a few of the cultures that have a story which resemble the Noah’s ark story.

1 father figure
His family
lots of water
a boat

Also other cultures had a creation story that is similiar. So I would do some research before you make statements like the Bible is the only one that has these stories.

I see no point in replying if you can’t get your facts right.

91

[quote]XCelticX wrote:
The Mage wrote:
Now I am an atheist, but I see that there is some history to the bible. For example I kind of believe in Noah’s flood.

Now why would I do that? Does anyone know what happened about 12,000 to 13,000 years ago? The waters rose 300 feet. (Damn fossil fuels.) This might just be the original basis of the flood.

I truly believe that the old world was destroyed by a flood. But most people don’t even know the flood is still here. The waters never really went down. (There were 1 or 2 different times when the waters rose within a millennium of this event adding about 100 more feet.)

There have been numerous ‘floods’ throughout the Earth’s history. Moving out of an ice age, with temperatures raising, would involve a ‘flood’. People generally attribute something on that big a scale to cosmic powers(God), as people do for almost everything they can’t explain and don’t understand.

The flood in the Bible, however, was supposed to be sudden, killing ALL THE HUMANS on EARTH except those in the arc. That means the flood would have to be over all of the lands people inhabitted, which means water would cover every single major continent on Earth except Antarctica. That is VERY impossible, I assure you. Even if all of the ice on Earth were to suddenly melt, water wouldn’t cover ALL of the continents…
[/quote]

I would assume you would know that there are marine fossils found on the upper parts of everest? That being said if the land was a little flatter than it is possible for all water in the world to cover the surface by 1.7 miles.

I guess you buy into the idea that mars was once flooded?

92

[quote]pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Some of you guys think it’s cool for you to post, “Jesus is a myth” for no apparent reason.

The opposite also applies. Why does someone feel compelled to post that Jesus is the toughest man alive, or would be the ultimate fighter or whatever in the threads about those subjects? Why bring in Jesus for no apparent reason?

Pot, meet kettle.[/quote]

You are basically claiming that if someone even mentions the name of “Jesus” then that automatically extends to you the right to bash their faith. I have to disagree with your point. If someone wants to state that Jesus is the toughest man whoever lived (on the tough guy thread) that is their right. If I remember correctly there were quite a few who claimed that.

You responded by stating that you thought Satan was the toughest (even though you attributed a wrong quote to him). Not one person bothered you about your choice. Everyone was pretty tolerant of your post, you had no problems.

Unfortuneately, you could not be as tolerant of other peoples choices as they were of yours. You just couldn’t stand to see anyone writing the name Jesus Christ, so you had to begin your Christian bashing: “Let’s assume Jesus was an historical figure, instead of a mythological one…” “I have trouble with Gods existence…would you accept to die for Santa Clause?” “How about walking on water,any purpose to that except showing off.” “I mean, what’s wrong with the guy? Isn’t he a little dense?” There are plenty more of your intolerant statements, but you get the idea. If someone mentions Jesus you feel it is your (God Given ha ha) right to immediately begin your intolerant bashing.

If someone stated that they were a Gay man does that mean that it’s open season on that individual, just because he mentioned his sexual preference on a message board? I can hear you now: “I only bashed the Gay man because he mentioned it first.” You call that proper logic? More importantly is at all respectful of his choice? No! In fact, it would sound pretty hateful. Which is exactly how you sound every time you bash Christ, God, or Christians. Yea, God can take care of himself, no problem there. The problem is you are spitting in the face of all who do believe in God (Jesus etc) and that is the peak of intolerance and hate speech. Not to mention ignorance.

A little tolerance goes a long way when we are dealing with different cultures, beliefs and many of lifes important choices.

93

XcelticX Wrote:If there were a God who loved us so much, why would he allow us to burn in hell, regardless of religion? Why would he allow sin to exist in the first place? And, if God created everything, why did he create sin?

I really dont know if anyone said anything about this because i only saw the first page and wanted to say something about it. Really if your going to have a disscusion/talk/argue on something learn about it first, God didnt create sin, there was this little angel who decided to rebel and blah blah, read on it.

94

[quote]ZEB wrote:
pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Some of you guys think it’s cool for you to post, “Jesus is a myth” for no apparent reason.

The opposite also applies. Why does someone feel compelled to post that Jesus is the toughest man alive, or would be the ultimate fighter or whatever in the threads about those subjects? Why bring in Jesus for no apparent reason?

Pot, meet kettle.

You are basically claiming that if someone even mentions the name of “Jesus” then that automatically extends to you the right to bash their faith. I have to disagree with your point. If someone wants to state that Jesus is the toughest man whoever lived (on the tough guy thread) that is their right. If I remember correctly there were quite a few who claimed that.

You responded by stating that you thought Satan was the toughest (even though you attributed a wrong quote to him). Not one person bothered you about your choice. Everyone was pretty tolerant of your post, you had no problems.

Unfortuneately, you could not be as tolerant of other peoples choices as they were of yours. You just couldn’t stand to see anyone writing the name Jesus Christ, so you had to begin your Christian bashing: “Let’s assume Jesus was an historical figure, instead of a mythological one…” “I have trouble with Gods existence…would you accept to die for Santa Clause?” “How about walking on water,any purpose to that except showing off.” “I mean, what’s wrong with the guy? Isn’t he a little dense?” There are plenty more of your intolerant statements, but you get the idea. If someone mentions Jesus you feel it is your (God Given ha ha) right to immediately begin your intolerant bashing.

If someone stated that they were a Gay man does that mean that it’s open season on that individual, just because he mentioned his sexual preference on a message board? I can hear you now: “I only bashed the Gay man because he mentioned it first.” You call that proper logic? More importantly is at all respectful of his choice? No! In fact, it would sound pretty hateful. Which is exactly how you sound every time you bash Christ, God, or Christians. Yea, God can take care of himself, no problem there. The problem is you are spitting in the face of all who do believe in God (Jesus etc) and that is the peak of intolerance and hate speech. Not to mention ignorance.

A little tolerance goes a long way when we are dealing with different cultures, beliefs and many of lifes important choices.

[/quote]

The thing that drive nuts about Jesus mythers is they claim that most scientist support evolution so that is all they need. Then they go against almost all Historians and claim that Jesus is a myth.

So let me get this straight creationist are wrong because most scientist don’t support their position, and most Historians are wrong because they don’t support the idea that Jesus was a myth?

Nice double standard.

One set of scientist opinion is good, and the others are not!

95

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You are basically claiming that if someone even mentions the name of “Jesus” then that automatically extends to you the right to bash their faith. I have to disagree with your point. If someone wants to state that Jesus is the toughest man whoever lived (on the tough guy thread) that is their right. If I remember correctly there were quite a few who claimed that.

You responded by stating that you thought Satan was the toughest (even though you attributed a wrong quote to him). Not one person bothered you about your choice. Everyone was pretty tolerant of your post, you had no problems.[/quote]

Well, the post was pretty much tongue-in-cheek, but I guess I didn’t think that anyone would take Satan seriously.

You’re right. Bad intro. I should’ve simply stated that I view Jesus as a mythological figure, not an historical one. But I stand by the rest of the post. What Jesus went through is nowhere near the worst way to die I can think of. Not even close. Everyone jumps on the intro, and no one considers the actual point. I screwed up.

Put that back in context please. Moon Knight asked me if I would die for God’s love. I was simply explaining the way I view the whole thing. If you don’t believe in something, you certainly don’t believe it can love you, much less accept to die for that non-existent love.

Again, out of context. Someone had just mentioned that God didn’t do things for “theatrics”… Walking on water didn’t seem to serve any other purpose as far as I’m concerned.

The “little dense” part was regarding Jesus and faith. If Jesus knew that God was real, then he didn’t need faith. Faith is belief without proof. If you’ve got knowledge of something without any doubt, then there’s no faith required, or even possible…

[quote]If someone stated that they were a Gay man does that mean that it’s open season on that individual, just because he mentioned his sexual preference on a message board? I can hear you now: “I only bashed the Gay man because he mentioned it first.” You call that proper logic? More importantly is at all respectful of his choice? No! In fact, it would sound pretty hateful. Which is exactly how you sound every time you bash Christ, God, or Christians. Yea, God can take care of himself, no problem there. The problem is you are spitting in the face of all who do believe in God (Jesus etc) and that is the peak of intolerance and hate speech. Not to mention ignorance.

A little tolerance goes a long way when we are dealing with different cultures, beliefs and many of lifes important choices.[/quote]

Your gay man analogy sucks, but I won’t get into that.

Concerning “proper logic”, if you bring up Jesus in a thread, I certainly reserve the right to comment on it. Whether you agree with the comment or not, that’s basically not my problem.

As for tolerance, well that would sure be nice. I seem to remember it was you who labeled us “God-haters” on the same thread and then asked someone named “Sam” if this was hate speech (whoever that “Sam” may be). Or being told to read apologetic litterature… Where’s the being “respectful of his choices” in there? I would use my “pot, meet kettle” line if I hadn’t just done so in a previous post.

As I recall, Moon Knight was about the only one who managed to keep the discussion civil and at least seemed to consider the other’s point of view.

All that being said, I understand where you come from and I see that for you, christianity is serious and you really believe. Fair enough. I’ll try to cut down the inflammatory remarks and avoid ridiculing your beliefs.

But at the same time, I would ask to you remember that as far as I’m concerned, God and Santa really are on equal footing. So when I say stuff that pisses you off, you’re probably taking it a lot more seriously than the way I intended it. As much as you’re convinced that Jesus is your savior and the way to eternal life, etc. I’m just as adamantly convinced that you’re wrong. (Or your beliefs to be wrong…)

96

[quote]Zoro wrote:
I really dont know if anyone said anything about this because i only saw the first page and wanted to say something about it. Really if your going to have a disscusion/talk/argue on something learn about it first, God didnt create sin, there was this little angel who decided to rebel and blah blah, read on it.[/quote]

But didn’t God create the angel?

If God is omniscient, then he knew the angel would rebel and cause sin to appear in the world. So God did create sin, only indirectly.

There cannot be anything in this world that is not God’s will, if God is the omnipotent and omniscient Creator.

The common argument is that God gave us free will, and the we choose to do evil, not God. But God could’ve given free will without the possibility of doing evil, if that was his wish. He didn’t allow us to walk thru walls, or become invisible or a whole bunch of other stuff we can’t do. So why permit us to do evil, if not because he wills it?

97

[quote]jponry wrote:
Slowly moving up weight in a lift to new levels hardly relates to that of being dead for three days, comming back to life and then walking the earth for hundreds to see before rising up in the clouds and ascending to heaven.[/quote]

Great story!!! I have another one for you: Every year some old fat guy flies all around the world in a sleigh pulled by eight magical flying deer. They land on your roof, and then the fat guy comes down your chimney and leaves presents!!!

Pretty cool, huh!!!

And then a few months later this little rabbit dude comes back and hides eggs and chocolate candy all over your house!!!

!!! - Note: extra excalmation marks for my friends zebbie and jeffy, they really seem to like that shit!!!

98

[quote]pookie wrote:

The common argument is that God gave us free will, and the we choose to do evil, not God. But God could’ve given free will without the possibility of doing evil, if that was his wish. He didn’t allow us to walk thru walls, or become invisible or a whole bunch of other stuff we can’t do. So why permit us to do evil, if not because he wills it?
[/quote]

The very point of free will is right and wrong spiritual choices, not what physical laws can I defy. So trying to compare it to physical laws doesn’t even come close to a comparison.

99

[quote]haney wrote:
The very point of free will is right and wrong spiritual choices, not what physical laws can I defy. So trying to compare it to physical laws doesn’t even come close to a comparison. [/quote]

So creating a world where man has free will, but can do no evil is impossible even for God?

If it is, then he can’t be omnipotent, since there’s something he can’t do.

If it’s not impossible, then God chose a world were evil exists over one where it doesn’t. As such, he can’t be an All Good, All Loving God.

Even free will itself, as we understand it, poses a problem. God, being omniscient, knows all you’ll do in your life.

He knew before I was born that I’d reject His message, would be an atheist and would condemn my soul to eternal torment in the afterlife.

Do I have free will? Could I do something that God hasn’t already foreseen? If I can, then I really have free will, but God cannot be called omniscient (since there are things He doesn’t know). If He knows all I’m going to do before I do it, then I cannot do otherwise as much as I try.

Free will becomes simply an illusion so that men believe themselves to be free. In that case God is lying to us.

100

[quote]pookie wrote:
What Jesus went through is nowhere near the worst way to die I can think of. Not even close.
[/quote]

Just about everything you wrote kinda pissed me off but this part, I admit, did get to me the most. You try getting beat to near death, your hands and feet nailed to a cross, and then be left to die up there. You know, Pookie, you can be a real asshole. You are highly antagonist to believers. Why don’t you keep your posionous comments to yourself. Asshole.