For Martial Artists And Boxers

Training Powerlifting
41

I know I’m a little late to the thread but about forms/katas, one thing was only barely mentioned:

If you practice something enough, you would be surprised at what kind of “form/kata moves” you perform in a real fight. Not many…and nothing flashy…just effective.

My last fight I was in was 3 versus me. Won’t talk about the details but in retrospective thinking I found that I did quite a few moves from forms to the level of being quite effective.

“OH cool…I did the twisting stance forward punch into rising twisting elbow followed by a headlock/throw” COOL!!! That type of thing…

Bear in mind, usually forms/kata moves won’t be as “pretty” in combat as in practice.

As for what Zen Nova said about the cartwheel kick…most true…however it sounds like you are referring to Modern Wu Shu…it is the most acrobatic and visually entertaining of the arts which is why it can be more readily seen in the media than the others.

However, regardless the fact that these performers are INCREDIBLE athletes (I don’t know about YOU, but I can’t do a airborne triple barrel twist and land into a graceful cartwheel kick…etc)there is absolutley no fight application in their art.

42

I am in now way dissing those who do katas. As for their athletic ability, hell yes they are athletic. Doing the aerial kicks and the speed at which they are performed is mind boggling.

43

HeadButt

You can try with shorter rounds - 2-3 minutes.
Example:
Round 1:

  • Burpees x 30 sec
  • Shadow Boxing, Heavy Bag or Mitts (all punches have to be with 100% power) x 1 min
  • Burpees x 30 sec

Round 2:

  • Burpees x 30 sec
  • Jumping Jacks x 30 sec
  • Mountain Climbers x 30 sec
  • Heavy Bag or Shadow Boxing All-out Punching (non-stop punching) x 30 sec

Round 3:

  • Burpees x 30 sec
  • DB Swing Left Hand x 30 sec
  • DB Swing Right Hand x 30 sec
  • Shadow Boxing, Heavy Bag or Mitts (all punches have to be with 100% power) x 1 min

Round 4:

  • Burpees x 30 sec
  • Heavy Bag or Shadow Boxing All-out Punching (non-stop punching) x 30 sec
  • High Knee In Place x 30 sec
  • Burpees x 30 sec

Round 5:

  • Burpees x 30 sec
  • DB Snatch Left Hand x 30 sec
  • DB Snatch Right Hand x 30 sec
  • Shadow Boxing, Heavy Bag or Mitts (all punches have to be with 100% power) x 1 min

This is much easier and it’s still effective. :slight_smile:

44

I"ll leave that alone.

Anyway, not dissing kata’s… just not my cup of tea. I’ll agree it does reinforce technique, but in my experience it locks you into a frame of reference. Of course different arts practice forms differently, and have differents forms so whatever works for you. If it’s saved your ass… GREAT! KEEP IT UP! Thats why we call it self-defense!

What I was referring to with the cartwheel kick was some stuff that I saw on ESPN- the stuff where the kids get dressed in matching uniforms and their staff’s have lights and are all glowy and stuff- then when they 'ki-ah" or spirit shout, whatever…they yell at the top of their lungs

Entertaining, and pretty badass… some athletic sons of bitches. And cute milfs…but I digress…anyhoo.

They had point sparring on there, and basically what i saw was a lot of feet shuffling, then one guy jump at the other guy with an oustretched fist then turn around and sprint away.

Thats why I tend to call point sparring Fag Tag.

This same guy who was supposed to be like the reigning champ or something did a cartwheel at the other guy then sprinted away again.

Sorry but…that’s fag tag.

Now Olympic Taekwondo…the’ll kill you and eat your children. They train pretty seriously. Only drawback I don’t think their techniques have a lot of power but DAMN are they fast.

I met this guy when I was living in the dorms…well he found some taekwondo friends who were learning how to grapple. They were showing each other how to grapple…well he knew I fought and I knew he did something but I didn’t know what.

Well the fools were grappling, one of the dude’s is an ass. He passed a comment at me, I said “lets go”… I get a gullotine (for the wrestlers) also known as “The Twister” (for jiujitsu people- yes eddie bravo style)

Well its funny that BOTH of us had sparring gear…

He wanted to learn, i wanted to know what he could do…he figured I couldn’t fight standup… I figured he couldn’t fight.

Skinny asian dude.

Well damn… he let off like 5 kicks before I knew what the hell happened. Mind you, all I had to do was have my hands up and the kicks didn’t really affect me any. One was a liver shot, that was the only noticeable one.

Well turns out he was on the junior olympic taekwondo team. So I’m pretty impressed and have a level of respect for those guys. Not powerful per say, but if they need to be they probably could be. Not to mention they are fast as all hell.

(if you’re wondering how it ended, scissor kick take down to heel hook- aka flying heel hook)

45

I agree whole heartedly with xen. I believe that the only effectice thing katas teach is technique. Other than that why bother with them. Unless you get the spiritual sense from them. The speed at which katas are performed is amazing and beautiful to watch. I know that I cannot move as quickly and crisp as those who practice them. As for the sparring or “fag tag” in today’s traditionally martial arts, it is not full contact. Now I know that most classes cannot engage in full contact sparring because of insurance purposes and what not, but they should make it as realistic as possible. Most people take a martial art for self defense purposes, and with that said point sparring isn’t going to help me fend off a would be attacker. That’s why I feel Muay Thai and BJJ is so effective. For one in Muay Thai you learn how to strike in a devastating and powerful way. I would much rather have a TKD guy speed kick me than have someone who practices Muay Thai to get me in a clinch and proceed to knee and elbow the ever living shit out of me. As for BJJ it is essential. Majority of all street fights go to the ground. With that said wouldn’t you want to know how to subdue an attacker or have the ability to finish him off by choking him out or breaking one of his limbs.

46

[quote]Ni6tO_ wrote:
HeadButt

You can try with shorter rounds - 2-3 minutes.
Example:
Round 1:

  • Burpees x 30 sec
  • Shadow Boxing, Heavy Bag or Mitts (all punches have to be with 100% power) x 1 min
  • Burpees x 30 sec

Round 2:

  • Burpees x 30 sec
  • Jumping Jacks x 30 sec
  • Mountain Climbers x 30 sec
  • Heavy Bag or Shadow Boxing All-out Punching (non-stop punching) x 30 sec

Round 3:

  • Burpees x 30 sec
  • DB Swing Left Hand x 30 sec
  • DB Swing Right Hand x 30 sec
  • Shadow Boxing, Heavy Bag or Mitts (all punches have to be with 100% power) x 1 min

Round 4:

  • Burpees x 30 sec
  • Heavy Bag or Shadow Boxing All-out Punching (non-stop punching) x 30 sec
  • High Knee In Place x 30 sec
  • Burpees x 30 sec

Round 5:

  • Burpees x 30 sec
  • DB Snatch Left Hand x 30 sec
  • DB Snatch Right Hand x 30 sec
  • Shadow Boxing, Heavy Bag or Mitts (all punches have to be with 100% power) x 1 min

This is much easier and it’s still effective. :)[/quote]

This is better for me as well. I tried your first workout, with full enthusiasm. I had to take 2 minutes break between rounds instead of 30-60 secs.
What killed me more than anything were the burpees. My legs are a weak link for me. But you know what Shugs says: “If you dread it, do it.” Guess I gotta up my dosage of burpees :slight_smile:

47

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:

They had point sparring on there, and basically what i saw was a lot of feet shuffling, then one guy jump at the other guy with an oustretched fist then turn around and sprint away.

Thats why I tend to call point sparring Fag Tag.

This same guy who was supposed to be like the reigning champ or something did a cartwheel at the other guy then sprinted away again.

Sorry but…that’s fag tag.
[/quote]

Now, let’s be a little more respectful. I tend to like “fag tag.” If that’s not your cup of tea, please don’t insult those who enjoy it.

Point sparring has a lot of benefits. It develops fitness, for one thing. It’s a lot of fun. I think it resembles self-defense more closely than full contact fights, which last 12 rounds of 3 minutes. Point sparring teaches you to end a fight as quickly as possible, just like on the street. Albeit, on the street, you wouldn’t be using cartwheels, and outstretched fists.

48

[quote]chtdrmn wrote:
I agree whole heartedly with xen. I believe that the only effectice thing katas teach is technique. Other than that why bother with them. Unless you get the spiritual sense from them. The speed at which katas are performed is amazing and beautiful to watch. I know that I cannot move as quickly and crisp as those who practice them. As for the sparring or “fag tag” in today’s traditionally martial arts, it is not full contact. Now I know that most classes cannot engage in full contact sparring because of insurance purposes and what not, but they should make it as realistic as possible. Most people take a martial art for self defense purposes, and with that said point sparring isn’t going to help me fend off a would be attacker. That’s why I feel Muay Thai and BJJ is so effective. For one in Muay Thai you learn how to strike in a devastating and powerful way. I would much rather have a TKD guy speed kick me than have someone who practices Muay Thai to get me in a clinch and proceed to knee and elbow the ever living shit out of me. As for BJJ it is essential. Majority of all street fights go to the ground. With that said wouldn’t you want to know how to subdue an attacker or have the ability to finish him off by choking him out or breaking one of his limbs.[/quote]

You’re right. There’s definitely value in full contact fighting, like Muay Thai and BJJ. However, for those of us who don’t do martial arts for self-defense, but rather for sport and competition, there’s also value in point sparring. For one thing, it’s safer. How often would you be able to engage in a full contact tournament versus a light/medium contact tournament?

Nothing is black and white. Full contact fighting has its benefits, but let’s not forget about the benefits of point sparring, as well.

49

[quote]HeadButt wrote:
Vash…

we know u just do that kata stuff; none of the rest, don’t deny it…

You did Sunsu 10 times on the 29th?
No WONDER he was in such a bad mood. :P[/quote]

. . . I kinda thought that was a secret. But, okay. It’s out in the open now. Now how is crotty s’posed to get a respectable name?

Oh hell, I just got that.

bastard.

[quote]Nice to see you kept yer name.
I didn’t feel like being “BMore Banga” on a site with pix of scantily clad men.[/quote]

Sure. It’s much more hetero-safe to have the words “head” and “butt” in your name.

50

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
What I was referring to with the cartwheel kick was some stuff that I saw on ESPN- the stuff where the kids get dressed in matching uniforms and their staff’s have lights and are all glowy and stuff- then when they 'ki-ah" or spirit shout, whatever…they yell at the top of their lungs[/quote]

I’m not sure, 'cuz it’s not in the bible, but I’m pretty sure that the person who invented the ESPN 8 - The Ocho showings of that Paul Mitchell makes people respect MA even less show, and the XMA, is going to hell, and is to be ass-mangled by the devil for the rest of eternity.

The bastard.

51

kilgor im sorry if my last post seemed biased against point fighting thats not my intention because i really want to understand what those who participate in it get out of it…i understand that not everyone is in the sport for self defense and im one of those people im in it strictly for the fun and competition what i was referring to in the self defense aspect is the fact that thats why most people chose to do martial arts…could you please explain why you like point fighting and its respective benefits

52

[quote]kligor wrote:
BOSS wrote:
Here?s another hellish and extremely effective weighted GPP circuit for you fellas!
You need two 100-200lb Dumbbells, two sand bags, one car or truck. Hears how it works:
A1) farmers walk x 2 minutes
Drop DB
A2) carry the sand bags over your shoulders: x 2 minutes
Drop sandbags
A3) truck or car push: x 2 min
Repeat 2-4 times depending on your goals.

Seems to be more targeted towards strongmen than martial artists. Though I’m sure that full-contact fighters will find some benefit in this.

[/quote]

Instead of personally explaining to you why an athlete can benefit from that type of training, I?ll let Joe Defranco explain, read his article below:
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-056-training

53

[quote]chtdrmn wrote:
kilgor im sorry if my last post seemed biased against point fighting thats not my intention because i really want to understand what those who participate in it get out of it…i understand that not everyone is in the sport for self defense and im one of those people im in it strictly for the fun and competition what i was referring to in the self defense aspect is the fact that thats why most people chose to do martial arts…could you please explain why you like point fighting and its respective benefits[/quote]

I can’t really explain why I practice point sparring, other than I get pleasure out of it. However, here are some benefits:

  1. you are able to take much more of point sparring, since you are not getting hit as hard, or expending as much energy.

  2. a lot fewer injuries. Compare a heel kick to the chin in full contact, and in light contact. One will have you hospitalized, the other won’t.

  3. you get to practice techniques without the fear that if you try out this new technique, you’ll get knocked out.

I believe that yes, full contact is necessary, but only for a phase of your training. A complete beginner should start with no contact, then, progress to light/medium contact, then, after 2.5-3 years of training, move up to full contact for a while, and then, back down to light/medium contact. This makes you more well rounded. Those with more finesse, who do well at light/medium contact will appreciate those with less finesse, but more power. The opposite works as well. Those with power will appreciate those with finnesse, when they aren’t allowed to hit as hard.

After you’ve been to the full contact phase, you already know that you’re capable of hitting your opponent hard enough. You’ve felt what it’s like to hit, and what it’s like to be hit. Now, it’s time to move back down to light/medium, to decrease the chance of injury and burnout. Periodically, though, it’s good to step it up to full contact.

54

well put kligor i agree with everything you said in the benefits i assumed that you meant doing point sparring exclusively with no full contact i guess that would explain my confusion i wouldnt call what i do for light/medium sparring as point sparring or light in the terms of what is practiced in most martial arts everything i do is full speed but in our light/medium sparring we dont make contact to the head and we wear body protectors we only do this every 6 weeks we also dont do full contact sparring every day maybe 3 times a week at most out of the 5-6 we train by the way ive really enjoyed hearing the info on this thread and would like to keep it going or start another one on what each individuals training regimen includes and why to help other martial artists, boxers, wrestlers etc to better themselves

55

First of all: (I just HAVE to say this): Don’t believe that everything you see on TV is real. hehe

Something that I just remembered about form practicing is that we learn Multiple forms. We drill on them…sometimes breaking them down into small parts. Again, and again, and again.

Well, eventually, you get good at one form…and move on to another one…and practice it again, and again, and again…until getting good at THAT one too.

Eventually you know a LOT of forms (if not all of them from your particular school)…then what? Well here is the answer:

FORGET THEM!
yup, forget them…FORGET the preprogrammed movements that follow each other as mandated per specific form and utilize the “feel” of your style.

it’s called “Being formless”…

As when I’ve been in fights I tend to have a move from form A followed by a move from form B then one from form DD…etc. It just “happens”…not like I have to think/plan each move.

In fact, more often than not if I plan a move "I’ll throw a few punches high to draw his guard up, then…"etc, I usually get popped. LOL

So a form is another way of practicing something to keep it interesting and to learn the “flow” of a style.

As for “fights going to the ground”…

#1: I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t LET my fights go to the ground…nor do I intend to begin any time soon.

#2: What if there are multiple attackers?..it’s foolish to go to the ground THEN.

Much more to say, but long post as it is…so until next time

56

And here is my (very simple) contribution to the training methods aspect of the thread:

Silly as they sound (especially #2)these will help reflexes:

  1. Do a sport such as hockey (be the goalie) or handball. I did this for YEARS before I started MA and everyone is AMAZED at my concentration level (focus)and reflexes.

  2. This one is when you’re chillin’ out…watching TV or a movie. Every time the screen changes…to another camera angle or another scene or whatever…throw a punch. Sounds simple right?

Well, sometimes you wait for a LONG time (You are SO ready to punch…but it does not happen for a WHILE)and other times you have to react multiple times quickly (especially when watching a Western Martial arts film with people who don’t know ANY martial arts…like Charlies Angels or something…hehe) Try it and let me know what you think. =)

57

It is very foolish to go to the ground when you are facing multiple attackers. What I was referring to is what I’ve seen most guys get tagged a few times and they instantly lunge for a leg trying to get on top of you. In that case if you have a good sprawl and crossface you could stop it but most people don’t. This is just from seeing others fight. Me personally my standup isn’t that great. So if I know that I’m going to lose a fight, I’ll take it to the ground where I have more control. One thing though is I never go to the ground if I think “friends” will jump in and ghetto stomp and soccer kick my face.

58

About the guys who tend to want to grab when they realize they are outclassed:

Now it tends to be true. However, I’ve discovered (through working through some 75-80% intensity drills with the BEST of friends) that one thing can stop it:

Footwork…

SOmeone tries to tackle, so you advancing attack, (walking, not shuffle stepping) Jam with the shoulder/body, then attack quickly for 2-3 times, then retreat (walking, not shuffling)while attacking. Repeat, sidestep…advance,retreat…keep 'em confused and off balance. mix it up. Never give a “sure thing.”

Sidestepping and slipping attacks are also GREAT ways to avoid tackles. Of course, if done correctly (i.e. Practiced a LOT and at a high intensity).

These ways DO tend to eventually require some measure of raw strength…but hey, we’re on T-Nation, right?

Another way is the “Tai Chi way”…use momentum against them along with your natural power/weight. Still, requires proficiency with the sidestep or slip. Lots of practice there too.

59

[quote]chtdrmn wrote:
well put kligor i agree with everything you said in the benefits i assumed that you meant doing point sparring exclusively with no full contact i guess that would explain my confusion i wouldnt call what i do for light/medium sparring as point sparring or light in the terms of what is practiced in most martial arts everything i do is full speed but in our light/medium sparring we dont make contact to the head and we wear body protectors we only do this every 6 weeks we also dont do full contact sparring every day maybe 3 times a week at most out of the 5-6 we train [/quote]

Glad we got that cleared up :slight_smile:

I’d like that. So do you want to start the new thread, or should I?

60

[quote]Trailblazer wrote:
First of all: (I just HAVE to say this): Don’t believe that everything you see on TV is real. hehe

Something that I just remembered about form practicing is that we learn Multiple forms. We drill on them…sometimes breaking them down into small parts. Again, and again, and again.

Well, eventually, you get good at one form…and move on to another one…and practice it again, and again, and again…until getting good at THAT one too.

Eventually you know a LOT of forms (if not all of them from your particular school)…then what? Well here is the answer:

FORGET THEM!
yup, forget them…FORGET the preprogrammed movements that follow each other as mandated per specific form and utilize the “feel” of your style.

it’s called “Being formless”…

As when I’ve been in fights I tend to have a move from form A followed by a move from form B then one from form DD…etc. It just “happens”…not like I have to think/plan each move.

In fact, more often than not if I plan a move "I’ll throw a few punches high to draw his guard up, then…"etc, I usually get popped. LOL

So a form is another way of practicing something to keep it interesting and to learn the “flow” of a style.
[/quote]

You’re a deep dude, trailblazer!
Care to suggest some good ways to practice forms?