[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Just do 5/3/1 its geared towards increasing those 2 lifts and allows good recovery. Everything else it just seems like your making it up, it might sound okay on paper but not actually work well for a long period of time at the gym and you’ll end up changing to something else and have the same problem all over again. You can just do the lower body part of that program, 2 days a week. For upper you can do whatever you want, 1, 2 or 3 days a week.[/quote]
In my humble opinion someone who is doing 5/3/1 for bodybuilding is kind of wasting his time.
Day 1 - Shoulders/triceps - military press
Day 2 - Back/Rear delts - deadlift
Day 3 - OFF
Day 4 - Chest/Biceps - bench
Day 5 - OFF
Day 6 - Quads/Hamstrings/Calves - squat
Day 7 - OFF
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Just do 5/3/1 its geared towards increasing those 2 lifts and allows good recovery. Everything else it just seems like your making it up, it might sound okay on paper but not actually work well for a long period of time at the gym and you’ll end up changing to something else and have the same problem all over again. You can just do the lower body part of that program, 2 days a week. For upper you can do whatever you want, 1, 2 or 3 days a week.[/quote]
In my humble opinion someone who is doing 5/3/1 for bodybuilding is kind of wasting his time.[/quote]
The thing I take away from 531 is the progression method, not just exercises and frequency (or just the rep range). So although I won’t be following the exercise frequency/rep range, I may go gradual on the main lifts like in 531 (I think Wendler advises no more than 10 pounds extra a month for big lifts like squat and deadlifts, and 5 pounds maximum per month for smaller lifts like benching/rowing…obviously not taking into account new lifts).
Also, I think the de-loading every 4 weeks or so is good advice (providing you are pushing near maximums every time and doing lots of big lifts every week). If the rep range is high, and/or you aren’t pushing for near maximums every week (or you aren’t focussing too much on multi-joint movements), you could probably push for 8+ weeks of intensive training every week IMO without needing a deload.
Here are some reasons I don’t like 5/3/1 (I have tried it btw)
It has low frequency, low intensity (%RM) AND low volume. This is a bad recipe imo. You need to have at least one of those 3 high. (low volume-high intensity-medium frequency for ex.)
You train at a maximum intensity of 85% (90%x95%) for just one set every four weeks. To maximize strength gains, it is almost neccessary for some point to work at the higher %RM spectrum to make your CNS efficient.
There is no need for a deload training this way every 4 weeks. Or let me put it this way. With so much LITTLE work done, you are not stressing your system enough that it needs to tone down the lifts for supercompensation. Also, deload should be done mostly based on feel, the body is not a machine that needs deload every X weeks.
Very very little focus on back, while making the shoulder press a basic lift. The military press for bodybuilding SHOULDN’T definately be basic lift when you have bench as a basic and no pulling basic.
To sum things up, I think basic methods, such as training each bodypart every 5 days, while gradually reducing volume and increasing intensity works better. I have no intention to bash the program, Jim himself wrote in the book that the purpose of this program is NOT powerlifting or bodybuilding, and I think it doesn’t push the body enough for it to adapt.
If you can’t squat or deadlift every five days it’s not because of muscular fatigue/microtrauma it’s because of CNS fatigue. Don’t go to failure as much especially on the big lifts, sleep more, and eat more.
Another suggestion in order to control CNS fatigue is to alternate weeks between deadlifts and squats. For example week 1 squats week 2 deads etc. You wouldn’t need this however if you didn’t go to failure
I will be doing the squats and deadlifts in the same routine, and see how it goes. Not sure about high rep deadlifts yet, think I’ll keep in the lower rep range for now and just keep away from near failure.
[quote]desolator wrote:
Here are some reasons I don’t like 5/3/1 (I have tried it btw)
It has low frequency, low intensity (%RM) AND low volume. This is a bad recipe imo. You need to have at least one of those 3 high. (low volume-high intensity-medium frequency for ex.)
You train at a maximum intensity of 85% (90%x95%) for just one set every four weeks. To maximize strength gains, it is almost neccessary for some point to work at the higher %RM spectrum to make your CNS efficient.
There is no need for a deload training this way every 4 weeks. Or let me put it this way. With so much LITTLE work done, you are not stressing your system enough that it needs to tone down the lifts for supercompensation. Also, deload should be done mostly based on feel, the body is not a machine that needs deload every X weeks.
Very very little focus on back, while making the shoulder press a basic lift. The military press for bodybuilding SHOULDN’T definately be basic lift when you have bench as a basic and no pulling basic.
To sum things up, I think basic methods, such as training each bodypart every 5 days, while gradually reducing volume and increasing intensity works better. I have no intention to bash the program, Jim himself wrote in the book that the purpose of this program is NOT powerlifting or bodybuilding, and I think it doesn’t push the body enough for it to adapt.[/quote]
I agree that on it’s own, 531 isn’t sufficient for bodybuilding, but there are a few things I think you have backwards about the program (no offence):
The over-all volume isn’t low with the accessory lifts in there too (which a bodybuilder would modify to suit). These lifts don’t have to have lessor importance for a bodybuilder.
I don’t believe that all strength athletes work at full intensity for most of their training (just every so often). I think CT was one that stated this and is fond of “leaving reps in the tank”. For NS efficiency, progression each workout is more important than whether or not you trashed a muscle 100%. Wendler himself said something along the lines that if you increase your 5+ RM, you’ll also increase your 1RM. The ramping method from CT, and basic ‘bodybuilding ramping’ is based on “only” one max set per exercise and hasn’t held the big/strong guys back.
Deloading every 4 weeks is not unusual for powerlifting. And if you do all the accessory movements along with the main lifts, volume is not too little and you will need deloads quite frequently unless you’re really weak or aren’t pushing half as hard as you should. I agree that having it set in stone isn’t always ideal, but over the long term, if some weeks you should have deloaded after 5 instead of 4, what harm would that have done? Not any in my book - long term progress is more important than a few extra pounds in one month (which likely wouldn’t have been solid/permanent strength gains anyway).
Wendler puts a lot of emphasis on kroc rows/pullups, which are good balancing exercises for horizontal and vertical pushing. Sure, if you are using the pink dumbbells, and struggling to pull up your own bodyweight, this isn’t going to do much
No man, think I have understood 5/3/1 pretty well. I was doing it before 7-8 months for like 3-4 months duration. Interestingly, the best gains I had was in deadlift (training deadlift this way was paradoxically worked for me). But for pressing? No no no…
1)Yes I agree, one could bring up the volume with managing the accessory exercises, but then in essence, you are creating a second program, and the accessory exercises become more important than the main lifts.
2)Leaving a rep in the tank is indeed a very good strategy for strength gains, but: Doing 4x4 with some weight that is your 5RM is a totally different thing than doing just a top set of 85%RM for 9-11 reps while your max is 12. Yes you need to leave something in the tank, but you must train at higher %RMs from time to time for maximum strength gains…
3)That again entirely depends on the accessory choices you make. But simply I think that with that frequency and volume, you are not stressing your system to make even gains, how would you need a deload?
4)Indeed he says all that, and to be honest I am much more stronger on pulling motions than pushing. So I think a whole back day is a much better investment than just a “Military day” with some back assistance.
All in all, all these I wrote are based on my experience of the program. Simply for MYSELF, it didn’t worked, I really need to work more on the higher %RM spectrum and then going down and up etc… Maybe for some people it will work, but honestly for some beginner/intermediate I would definately not recommend it and recommend something time proven. Like the bodybuilding bible thread we had.
^ Yeah the bodybuilding bible was good (pretty straight forward advice)
As you’ve found with 531, there needs to be quit a few changes…I guess it’s mainly the principles I’m looking at really. I think it’s good in that it encourages systematic progression (even if not major jumps), and teaches the importance of allowing the body to “bounce back” (with the de-loads).
