First Run With IGF-1

Finally decided to use IGF-1 for the first time and I want everything planned well before I begin. I will inject 50mcg in both left and right muscles post workout into worked muscle groups (biceps, triceps, shoulders, quads, and traps) 5 days a week for 4 weeks.

Questions-

  1. does the previously mentioned protocol sound up to par?
  2. does the injection need to be IM or will subQ be alright?
  3. I am currently finishing off a 12 week test e/ EQ cycle. Should I wait until PCT is all done to begin IGF-1?
  4. What kind of results can be expected with first run at the above dosages? Trust me the diet and training are solid.

Bushy,
When you say 20mcg, do you mean 20 total or 20 per side(40mcg total). I just want to make sure. Also, since I am cutting back my dosage do you think that I could extend my use to 5 weeks? Then at least 5 weeks off. Thanks for all your help.

[quote]2thepain wrote:
Bushy,
When you say 20mcg, do you mean 20 total or 20 per side(40mcg total). I just want to make sure. Also, since I am cutting back my dosage do you think that I could extend my use to 5 weeks? Then at least 5 weeks off. Thanks for all your help.[/quote]

Not that i’m stepping on your toes bushy! (how you been!? pm me soon)

Yes that is what he means, 40mcg split so each shot would be 20mcg into the muscle.

I ran a IGf1 cycle about a month ago or so on it’s own and found it to be good for around 3-4 weeks, but after that it seems to “feel” like its not that effective afterwards. Post Training is definately the way to go because your receptors will be wide - awake at this point so on the point of injection you may be able to stimulate some Localised effect aswell as a systemic effect.

40mcg is a good doasge, like our good friend Mr Bushy said, anything over you run the risk of some intestinal growth, but remember that with these peptides the effects are a long term reward and dont happen in weeks, so if you were to be using more than say 50mcg per day your intestines might feel fine now but in 6 or so months time when those new receptors have helped build some more tissue (including intestines) and matured they will grow.
This also applys to muscle cells aswell, it truly is a long term gaining procedure with this stuff.

Of course all of what I have said is only built on info and some experience, you as an individual may have a completly different reaction! good luck hope it goes well.

Assuming that I do not use MGF how long will it take for my satelitte cells to regenerated, how long until I can run another 4 week IGF-1 cycle?

When you take the lr3 IGF-1, the IGF-1 represses your own GH production. If you take 2 days off, at the end of the two days, your IGF-1 will still be elevated enough to keep your natural GH production shut down. Nothing wrong about 5/7 dosing, but better that you understand what it does not do.

20mcg of lr3 IGF-1 is considered to have the same effect as 2u of GH. For some with higher levels of IGFBP (binding protien), typically something that increases with age, the 20mcg lr3 IGF-1 will probably have more effect than 2iu GH because the non-lr3 natural IGF-1’s effects are inhibited by the IGFBP. The lr3 IGF-1 is ‘designed’ to resist binding to IGFBP.

The effects of IGF-1 injection fading out may be from larger doses, and 20mcg per day may avoid that problem. As for feeling that things are not longer improved, that is also a normal human reaction to any change.

I am one week into 20mcg/day as 40mcg IM /EOD. I am communicating with someone who is trying roughly the same as an alternative to the 2iu GH/day that they were using. To assist in this evaluation, after the IGF-1 is gone in 50 days, back onto the 2iu GH/day of GH and this will be repeated a few times to get a good A/B test of the effects. So far the reports are that 20mgc IGF-1/day is way better than the iu/day GH… perhaps because of IGFBP.

KSman- Please keep this thread going as you progress into this run of IGF-1. I have great interest in your results. Thanks and good luck.

[quote]wings_931 wrote:
2thepain wrote:
Bushy,
When you say 20mcg, do you mean 20 total or 20 per side(40mcg total). I just want to make sure. Also, since I am cutting back my dosage do you think that I could extend my use to 5 weeks? Then at least 5 weeks off. Thanks for all your help.

Not that i’m stepping on your toes bushy! (how you been!? pm me soon)

Yes that is what he means, 40mcg split so each shot would be 20mcg into the muscle.

I ran a IGf1 cycle about a month ago or so on it’s own and found it to be good for around 3-4 weeks, but after that it seems to “feel” like its not that effective afterwards. Post Training is definately the way to go because your receptors will be wide - awake at this point so on the point of injection you may be able to stimulate some Localised effect aswell as a systemic effect.

40mcg is a good doasge, like our good friend Mr Bushy said, anything over you run the risk of some intestinal growth, but remember that with these peptides the effects are a long term reward and dont happen in weeks, so if you were to be using more than say 50mcg per day your intestines might feel fine now but in 6 or so months time when those new receptors have helped build some more tissue (including intestines) and matured they will grow.
This also applys to muscle cells aswell, it truly is a long term gaining procedure with this stuff.

Of course all of what I have said is only built on info and some experience, you as an individual may have a completly different reaction! good luck hope it goes well.[/quote]

I know what you are refering to is sometimes called GH Gut. I thought that it was also caused by extra water retention as well as growth? Is it even possible to get rid of GH Gut once someone get’s it? (ie. Ronnie)

Final note, I heard of people running 100mcg PWO. Haha I am not one of them, incase you were wondering, but is that not the standard bodybuilding dose? (didn’t P22 mention shooting 50mcg per side PWO?)

Hey I’m a dumbass, I was thinking of when Bushy said his friend shot 250mcg at one time lol.

Just wondering a few questions:

  1. Would high doses even do anything or would it just be wasted since your receptors could only take up so much?

  2. As far as long-term side effects, would it make a difference if you did 1,000mcg over 50 days verse doing 1,000mcg in 20-30days?

As a not I’ve been using 40mcg split between 2 doses. I do one in the morning then one PWO. I do this b/c it increases my hunger throughout the day making sure I eat enough.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
In my experience, the growth of the intestines from IGF1 and/or GH is transitory. For me, it takes around 3 weeks for my guts to grow, and 2-3 weeks for them to shrink back to their previous size.

This is largely due I feel to the very rapid turnover of cells in the intestines naturally, due to the high attrition rate of food passing through, causing a sloughing off of surface epithelium.

As a side note, I experimented with 100mcg ED, and the only thing I gained was constant hiccups!

Yes that’s right. I hiccupped constantly for 2 days, SOLID (barring sleep), with attendant fishy burps from my 20g fish oil intake. Highly frustrating.

Then I hiccupped intermitently, but very loudly and forcefully for another 3 days.

I had to be assigned my own room for one of my exams, but the stupid university officials came and dumped some other students in with me.

At the start of the exam, I was hiccup-free, but as soon as I began the second section of the exam, I began REALLY hiccupping.

Guess who had to be moved, TWICE? Yes, me, despite going to all the effort of getting my own room, I was the one who was moved about to accomodate the others, who shouldn’t have been there in the fiorst place, lol.

Also, when you have persistent hiccups, it’s amazing how everyone suddenly becomes a freakin’ expert on curing them: “Ooh, have you tried X, Y, or Z method to stop your hiccups?”

“No, but I have tried compressing the Vagus nerve to suppress parasympathetic nervous activity to the gall bladder, which is likely to be the cause of the hiccups as it lies close to the diaphragm, and may irritate it.” Was my standard reply, smartass that I am.

I loved their glazed looks of incomprehension, LMAO!

God, I’m such a twat, harhar.

Bushy[/quote]

Hahaha I got a good laugh at! Lol hiccups from IGF-1 thats a new one man!

I’ve made a change and decided to add in MGF along with the IGF. The previous protocols that I’ve seen for MGF is similar to IGF. Injected IM post workout into worked muscles, but the dosages seem to be about double that of IGF. So in theory if I am using 40mcg of IGF post workout I should also shoot 80mcg of MGF.

Does that sound appropriate? Bushy mentioned earlier in the thread that MGF will help to regenerate satelitte cells which are usually depleted by IGF use. By adding MGF can I increase the duration of my use.

Currently I was planning on 4 weeks @ 5x per week. Also, since I am planning on shooting both post workout can I mix them into the same barrel? Thanks for all help.

This will help you out, it was posted by thegame46 on another site.

PEGylated Mechano Growth Factor (MGF)
Quick summary: MGF is a splice variant of the IGF produced by a frame shift if the IGF gene. MGF increase the muscle stem cell count, so that more may fuse and become part of adult muscle cells. This is a process required for adult muscle cells to continue growing.

Why PEGylate MGF?
MGF exhibits local effects in skeletal muscle and without modification is not systemic (can�??t travel through the body). The problem with synthetic MGF is that it is introduced IM and is water based so it goes into the blood stream. MGF is not stable in the blood stream for more than a matter of minutes. Biologically produced MGF is made locally and does not enter the bloodstream and is short acting so stability is not an issue. By PEGylating the MGF we can make synthetic MGF injected IM almost as efficient as local produced MGF. Clinically proven Advanced Pegylation, the technology of polyethylene glycol (PEG) conjugation, holds significant promise in maintaining effective plasma concentrations of systemically administered drugs. It does this by surrounding part of the peptide with a unique structure made of polyethylene glycol, which can be attached to a protein molecule. The result of a correct PEGylation is simlar to the protective mechanism of a turtle shell. The polyethylene glycol groups protect the peptide but don�??t surround it completely. The active sites of the peptide are still free to do their biological function. In this case the shell is a negative charged shield against positively charged compounds that would affect the protein. This also provides a nice steric chamber for the peptide to reside in. So it�??s a happy turtle :wink:

Neurological research has shown that utilizing PEGylated MGF resulted in a longer more stable acting version of the MGF peptide in serum/blood.

Bottom line
PEGylation can improve performance and dosing convenience of peptides, proteins, antibodies, oligonucleotides and many small molecules by optimizing pharmacokinetics, increasing bioavailability, and decreasing immunogenicity and dosing frequency. PEGylation also can increase therapeutic efficacy by enabling increased drug concentration, improved biodistribution, and longer dwell time at the site of action. As a result, therapeutic drug concentrations can be achieved with less frequent dosing�??a significant benefit to patients who are taking injected drugs.

The PEG itself does not react in the body and is very safe. PEG has been approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as a base or vehicle for use in foods and cosmetics and in injectable, topical, rectal and nasal pharmaceutical formulations. PEG has demonstrated little toxicity, is eliminated intact by the kidneys or in the feces and lacks immunogenicity. The risk associated with current PEGylated drugs are due to the way the drug itself acts not the PEG. MGF, as it is being currently sold, is getting a bad rep from people due to the fact they feel that they are not seeing gains from it. Many people believe that the use of MGF in their cycles or protocols just flat out won’t work, however, this is far from the truth.
More MGF information
Complete Overview of MGF or IGF-IEc

From its sequence, MGF is derived from the IGF-I gene by alternative splicing and has different 3’ exons to the liver or systemic type (IGF-IEa). It has a 49 base pair insert in the human, and a 52 base pair insert in rodents, within the E domain of exon 5. This insert results in a reading frame shift, with a different carboxy (C) terminal sequence to that of systemic IGF-IEa. MGF and the other IGF isoforms have the same 5’ exons that encode the IGF-I ligand-binding domain. Processing of pro-peptide yields a mature peptide that is involved in upregulating protein synthesis. However, there is evidence that the carboxy-terminal of the MGF peptide also acts as a separate growth factor. This stimulates division of mononucleated myoblasts or satellite (stem) cells, thereby increasing the number available for local repair

During the early stage of skeletal muscle development, myoblasts (muscle stem cells) fuse to form syncytial myotubes, which become innervated and develop into muscle fibres. Thereafter, mitotic proliferation of nuclei within the muscle fibres ceases. However, during postnatal (after development) growth, additional nuclei are provided by satellite cells (myoblast) fusing with myotubules. Muscle damage-recovery seems to have a similar cellular mechanism, in that satellite cells become activated and fuse with the damaged muscle fibres (reviewed by Goldring et al. 2002). This is also pertinent to certain diseases such as muscular dystrophy in which muscle tissue is not maintained and which have been associated with a deficiency in active satellite (stem) cells (Megeney et al. 1996; Seale & Rudnicki, 2000) and in myogenic factors (Heslop et al. 2000). Skeletal muscle mass and regenerative capacity have also been shown to decline with age (Sadeh, 1988; Carlson et al. 2001). The reduced capacity to regenerate in older muscle seems to be due to the decreased ability to activate satellite cell proliferation (Chakravarthy et al. 2000). The markedly lower expression of MGF in older rat muscles (Owino et al. 2001) and human muscle (Hameed et al. 2003) in response to mechanical overload has been associated with the failure to activate satellite cells, leading to age-related muscle loss (Owino et al. 2001). Your muscle cels can not grow once they have reached a certain size unless they obtain more nuclei from the myoblast. MGF increases the myblast available to donate their nuclei to the adult muscle cell.
�??MGF appears to have a dual action in that, like the other IGF-I isoforms, it upregulates protein synthesis as well as activating satellite cells. However, the latter role of MGF is probably more important as most of the mature IGF-I will be derived from IGF-IEa during the second phase of repair. Nevertheless, it has been shown that MGF is a potent inducer of muscle hypertrophy in experiments in which the cDNA of MGF was inserted into a plasmid vector and introduced by intramuscular injection. This resulted in a 20 % increase in the weight of the injected muscle within 2 weeks, and the analyses showed that this was due to an increase in the size of the muscle fibres (Goldspink, 2001). Similar experiments by other groups have also been carried out using a viral construct containing the liver type of IGF-I, which resulted in a 25 % increase in muscle mass, but this took over 4 months to develop (Musaro et al. 2001). Hence, the dual role MGF plays in inducing satellite cell activation as well as protein synthesis suggests it is much more potent than the liver type or IGF-IEa for inducing rapid hypertrophy.�??

These results are based on actual transplantation of the DNA coding for the peptides. This is a permanent effect and much more potent than IM injections of the peptide itself. You will not see a 20% increase in muscle mass through IM injections as claimed above.
PEGylated MGF dosing Protocols
The PEGylated version is going to be much longer lasting making a 1-2 dose per week procedure possible. I still think its best used with IGF or AAS to maximize the benefits so here are some sample protocols

Once a week PEG MGF/ IGF
Sunday 100-300 mcg MGF you can choose to site inject if you wish. I think splitting large doses may benefit.
Monday �??Fri IGF 50mcg e/d

Twice a week PEG MGF / IGF
Sunday and Wed MGF 50-150 mcg
MT, ThF IGF 50 mcg

These protocols are just to start as this is brand new feel free to tweak them if you like. I will update them after we have done some testing.

This was posted by thegame46 oa another site.

PEGylated MGF dosing Protocols
The PEGylated version is going to be much longer lasting making a 1-2 dose per week procedure possible. I still think its best used with IGF or AAS to maximize the benefits so here are some sample protocols

Once a week PEG MGF/ IGF
Sunday 100-300 mcg MGF you can choose to site inject if you wish. I think splitting large doses may benefit.
Monday �??Fri IGF 50mcg e/d

Twice a week PEG MGF / IGF
Sunday and Wed MGF 50-150 mcg
MT, ThF IGF 50 mcg

These protocols are just to start as this is brand new feel free to tweak them if you like. I will update them after we have done some testing.

thanks chemical for the post, I think I read that one previously on a different forum. It calls for 2x a week dosing of MGF. Does anyone see anything wrong with injecting IGF and MGF in the same shot? I would appreciate some real life experience with using IGF and MGF together, dosing, protocols etc. thanks

I think AA will kill the MGF?

you can only inject with BA water or NACL from what I know…but I might be off. So the shots should be seperate since you reconstitute the IgF1 with AA.

I will be using insulin pins for most of the injections. I have access to 31gauge 5/16, 28 gauge 1/2, and 25 gauge 1". I will use the 25s (1") for my quads, the 28s (1/2")for my traps and shoulders, but will the 31s (5/16")work for biceps and triceps or should I use a 1/2" pin on these as well? I may need to buy more pinz.

Well I’m a pretty lean guy and I can use slin 29’s almost anywhere: Quads delts tri’s I believe 1/2 inch to inch depending on what is in stock. YEs you will need a bunch of pins. BUy a case of 100.

25 gauge will be needed if you are on the chubby side where you plan to inject. I have very muscular quads and low body fat so I can get away with it. The 29’s -30 can be rotated they leave less damage than a lower guage needle.

At any rate I’ve never had any issues hitting muscle with slin pins…ever.

Hope that helps bro