?Hi guys,
Well, I also believe that one on one fighting is very important and should definetely be paid a lot of attention.?
If you anticipate street fighting you have to ask why that is. Bullies at school, rough neighborhood, profession (Law enforcement)?
?However, I also believe that choosing to fight out of ego/insecurity/reputation is flat out stupid. In my opinion that is exactly the type of people who give martial arts a bad name.?
Most of the time this type of fight is wrong. But it is also common, especially when younger. And sometimes, at that stage it seems necessary to the kid because he can?t report bullying unless he wants it 10x worse. Sooner or later most youths have to fight their own battle. Sometimes, unfortunately, that is really a fight.
?Sadly, I see more and more of this these days. Schools teaching people how to fight, but not why to fight.
If you keep this up, then chances are either:
- You will get into a fight with the wrong person/people and get killed/crippled/etc…
- You will end up in jail, where I hope you really do enjoy fighting, because you’re going to have to do it everyday for the time you’re there with people who don’t give a crap if you think they’re a pussy for ganging up on you and beating you within an inch of your life, or raping you, or even killing you?.
Really? Many martial arts teach ?lethal? and ?crippling? techniques. Every time there is death/crippling in a fight it makes the news big time. There are way more fights than deaths/crippling from them. It leads to a point. Many street styles purport that they can kill easily. They even site ?medical science? and say it takes x amount of pressure to break a skull or a hit here then a hit there will cause a cascading reaction which will kill someone. Many times this is false. It is hard to do this kind of thing to a living, resisting person.
?Facko, if you say that you don’t care whether or not you die, then once again I am very sorry to hear that. I sincerely hope that you seek professional help (psychologist, psychiatrist, pastor, etc…), or that you find out whatever it is that has given you such a depressed and sad outlook on life and remedy it.
Scrappy,
Well, I can understand your apprehension to just change your views on combat based soley on what works against a compliant partner, and I agree with you for the most part.
However, do I really need to smash someone’s head in with a rock to know that it will work? Do I really need to slit someone’s carotid artery to know that it will kill them? No. A simple understanding of anatomy will tell me this.?
Will it? And will it do it before they can hurt you? I?ve heard soldiers tell me many ways they?ve been taught to kill fast didn?t work. Then I heard some of the ways they actually do it. Well before they got some of those tricks you wouldn?t believe the punishment some people took before dying. I do not condone or wish to glorify this. I do think eventually if you think you know how to kill you need to talk to someone who?s done it and see what they say. The point is, you don?t know until you experience or hear reliable experience.
?Now, understand that we obviously must have some level of control/rules while sparring in order to survive the training. After all if we were constantly smashing each other’s heads in with rocks, we would run out of training partners real fast.
However, there is a lot to say for simulated weapons.
For instance, we sometimes use focus pads/foam blocks as simulated rocks. We will leave them lying around to use as potential environmental weapons. Now, if I can get a hold of that foam block while sparring and smash my opponent’s head with it several times, then had it been a real rock, I would have just split my opponent’s skull open.?
Maybe, I saw a man take a full swing to the head with a bat once. He beat the crap out of the guy who did it. It was insane. If the bat attacker just walked up and choked the guy. Case closed.
?The same can be said of using rubber/dull training knives to simulate real weapons. Or, even magic markers. If I can take that rubber/dull/magic marker knife and drag it across your trachea/carotid artery, then had it be a real knife, you’d be dead?
. Maybe, but does your opponent die before he gets a major shot off?
?Also, once again, please don’t think so one dimensionally about arsenals such as biting, eye attacks, etc… You don’t necessarily need to take a chunk out of someone to effectively use a bite. Nor do you have to gouge someone’s eyes out to effectively do an eye attack.
We do use eye attacks at full speed against resisting opponents. We do bite each other. We do use nerve attacks. We do use body handles. We also use grappling and striking. None of these arsenals is necessarily superior, or more important than any other. What is important is, what is appropriate at the moment.
For instance, you used the example of if someone gets you in mount and holds down both your wrists. Well, obviously in this situation biting isn’t an option (unless the guy is stupid enough to keep a close enough proximatey to you to allow you to bite him), nor is grabbing his balls, nor are body handles, striking, smashing his head in with a rock, etc…
But, let’s say a guy grabs you in a head lock. Well, now going into his eyes is a very effective option, as is grabbing his groin.?
This brings up a big point for me in this. If you cannot escape the head lock with leverage you may not escape by inflicting pain. A good head locker usually goes head and arm and wips you to the ground hard and in all the commotion it?s hard to get a good grab for eyes/groin. He doesn?t walk up and hug your head. The fight moves, covers major ground as he tries to drive and you maintain balance you may cover 30 feet before you fall on top of each other. It is not static. Also, he can disrupt breathing once on the ground and transition to other positions and not perseverate on one move as he is being bit. People react to pain like a hot stove, fast, then they address and reposition. Grappling teaches this. Goes back to grappler won?t be surprised by this at all. It is addressed a lot.
?I am not trying to suggest that biting, eye attacks, body handles, nerve attacks and environmental weapons are necessarily superior to striking and/or grappling. But, also do not agree with the notion that they are inferior either. That would be like asking a carpenter whether his saw was more important than his hammer. His reply would almost definetely be, “it depends on the job”. The same applies here.?
Agreed with the last part. But, in a fight between a guy with 3 years of mma vs. 3 years of biting, eye gouging training. I?d bet mma guy.
?We spend a considerable amount of time learning proper stiking, grappling, positioning, footwork, and all of the other components found in MMA. We also however, spend time perfecting our other arsenals?
. That is good because pain does not change the outcomes of fights. Position does. Watch UFC where Trigg beat the hell out of Hughes and Hughes came back. Dirty tactics would not have helped. His luck/skill in not getting knocked out did. Trigg could?ve used better submission/strike training to finish. Maybe dirty tactics would?ve helped him. But that is my point, they usually only give the guy already winning a brutal way to win. They do not reverse the situation all the time and it is falsely confident to believe they would.
?You argued that these things do not require a large amount of practice. But I would disagree with you for several reasons.
- Just because you know how to grab someone’s balls, doesn’t mean that you’re going to be able to do it in real time. Nor does it mean that you’ll know how to use that grab to it’s maximum potential?
. I agree. I think in many real grappling situations you can?t grab the groin and get a good hold. But I have been shown all the best ways to execute dirty tactics by several ?authorities?. It is why I still do BJJ. The thing is I?ve studied a lot of this stuff for years and noticed a lot of interesting patterns. Even with the personalities that do different arts.
?2. The same could be said of weapons such as guns. I mean little kids end up accidentely shooting each other with their parent’s guns without even having any training whatsoever on how to use them. Yet, every year law enforcement officers are killed because they fail to operate their firearms correctly in the heat of battle. And these are individuals who dedicate countless hours of time training how to use these weapons.?
True. Shows that certain people need different training to get it down ?for real?. There are tons of other martial arts experts, soldiers, spec ops, fbi, secret service and many others that come to learn with us. They all know dirty tricks, weapons and have crazy experiences to tell. They all believe in BJJ and have used it.
?One more point that I want to mention is; ok, you used the example of “what if you end up on the ground in a multiple opponent fight, not by choice?” as a way to argue the need to learn how to ground fight. On this I am in complete agreement with you. In Sento we group postures into 3 categories:
Intentional- any position that you intentially adopt
Incidental- a position that you are in, not by choice, but just by chance
Accidental- a position that you are in because something went wrong
Basically, when you look at things through this lens, you realize that any and all positions are fighing positions, because you may have to fight from any and all positions?
. That?s good you guys train BJJ. It is a valid system. Grappler will not be surprised on the street is my theme and anyone will be surprised by a sneakily drawn weapon. So that?s all I?m saying. Get good at BJJ or MMA, win most of your fights. It?s simply been proven over and over and over.
?Your example falls into either the Incidental, or Accidental category, depending on the situation.
You then suggested that one reason to train in BJJ/Judo/Greco/ect… was to learn how to defend getting taken down. With this I am also in complete agreement with. However, couldn’t the same be said of any of the other arsenals? For instance, can you think of any better way for learning how to not get hit than by boxing/kickboxing? I can’t. Why wouldn’t the same be said of biting, eye attacks, nerve attacks, body handles, and environmental weapons? ?
Yes, but this doesn?t take as long to learn and be good at as good BJJ/boxing. It just doesn?t.
?Basically, even if say you didn’t think that you would use them in a fight, wouldn’t it be better to have trained against them in real time, to be able to defend against someone else’s attempts at doing them to you?
Think about it like this, let’s take a MMA figher (we’ll use Fedor again for conveniance sake). Now, I am not in anyway arguing that he is most likely going to kick the ever living crap out of pretty much anyone who he gets into a fight with in the street.
However, let’s say he gets into a fight with a guy and because he hasn’t trained specifically against guys who are trying to bite him real time, his opponent bites a chunk out of him. Now, I doubt that this is going to stop Fedor, because he is one tough son of a gun. So, Fedor deals with the pain of the bite and then preceeds to pound the guy’s head in, thus ending the fight.
However, when he goes to the hospital to get the wound worked on, he finds out that the guy who he got into a fight with has Aids. Sure, enough about a year or so later he finds out that he has contracted the disease.
Now, he must immedietely stop fighting in MMA competitions, which means that he does not have any income coming in, he can no longer make love to his wife for the rest of his life, nor can he ever have any children.?
First, what if you bite a guy and you get AIDS!!! I mean, your suggesting biting??! And, this goes back to something I didn?t want to say. Street guys are always wrapped up with this stuff. These 1 in a million cases. What if there are 20 guys, what if it?s on ice, what if this and that. Well, those things all suck. But you can?t walk around paranoid about all this stuff. You can train for the high percentage attacks and go through life and be fine. Go looking for trouble and you?re sure to find it. But go out and have a good time and super trained mma guys and professional soldiers who?ve killed people with improvised weapons usually don?t pick a fight with you. It?s usally a right hand punch or a tackle from a bigger guy who played football, lifts weights, boxed a little, wrestled a little and that guy can be dangerous if you don?t? have a good handle on the clinch. Or you?ve got a false sense of security about what you ?know? will ?brutally stop any attacker in seconds? cause you think it would hurt to get your nuts bitten. As for the multi attackers, how do you beat many if you cant? beat one? And if you?re going out to a rough place take some friends or something. I mean. I met one of the street guys you mentioned on another thread or maybe earlier in this one, I don?t remember, but it was not the Lysaks. He was paranoid about all this crazy stuff. He didn?t grapple well though he claimed to incorporate grappling and his EGO PREVENTED HIM FROM ROLLING WITH ANY OF US. He did not have an inner peace to the extent that he had nothing to prove. He didn?t want to lose or feel exposed. Not that we were being dicks. Medium rolling is a part of all our classes. He had his students roll with us and told us where they could fit in these attacks. They got smeared easily and we weren?t going hard or anything. But he told us after they tapped like 50 times that they ?could?ve? used all these eye/throat/groin attacks. I didn?t see it. But all the talk about fighting mma and competing is about ego isn?t true. People who don?t want to see where they have weaknesses or don?t want others to see, don?t spar. They don?t spar because of their ego. I?m talking about friendly rolling with the students even. Many street guys don?t train with their students in that way. They?re too ?lethal?, or it?s to unrealistic and they don?t want to train like they wouldn?t fight and all these excuses. This guy had nothing to lose. Just roll, we were nice, and receptive to what he was saying and saw some points on the nature of attacks and all but it?s like hey man, we?re not guys looking for a weekend seminar, we know how to handle an attack. Some of the guys there were so shocked at what he was saying to do. Soldiers and Law enforcement guys with a lot of real world experience. He sells a lot of videos and stuff. I later read on a net forum that at one of his seminars a low level guy beat him easily, a few times with BJJ techniques. I could see it happening the way he was, but I don?t know. I do know he looked like the type of guy people would start with. Sort of jacked on the short side and angry looking. He said he could?ve tore the guys eyes out 6 times. Maybe he could?ve. I don?t know and neither does he and that?s why he walks around very insecure and he was not super nice, he was condescending and he wasn?t anywhere near as accomplished as my coach who just hangs out with us as one of the guys. Matt Thornton talks about this on a few of the interviews on his DVD?s and man he is right on in many cases.
Some of the guys at our camp wanted to smack him around but most of us felt sorry for him. He was really weird. I don?t see myself ever getting into another ?street fight? again. But having been around martial arts and fighting since I was 6 I can say a few things about them now looking back.
Anything can happen.
Train for the most common attacks.
Sooner or later get into fighting as a growing, evolving sport and remember at the core it?s for fighting but realize that with your confidence you?ll be friendlier, people will see that and you?ll be less likely to be chosen as a victim. The sport should have some ruled competitions and you?ll see it evolve over the years. New things are developed to counter old and that?s how it should be. Not fixed and not in any way should you think you know it all and are a bad ass.
BJJ, as I learned it, works in many real street confrontations and it?s rare that a dirty trick will overcome a good position. There are people who can beat me no matter what dirty tricks I know so I better have a decent personality so I don?t get in a fight with people. I know this cause my ego did not get in the way of testing my skills against other guys and winning a few and losing a few.
We?re making some assumptions about each other also. I?m judging by the posts that you have not dedicated a year to studying BJJ as a system but have seen maybe the In Action tapes or UFC?s? I?m assuming you haven?t been put in a really good head lock where you weren?t able to grab or bite cause he had a head and arm and was putting a lot of weight on you. I?m assuming you don?t roll medium to hard every class. And you?re assuming I don?t know the ?intricacies? of dirty tactics. Well, Not from the lysaks but from a ton of other ?experts?. I mean ?top? well known guys who are out there selling dvds and have web sites. I?ve seen it all except the Lysaks and I?m wondering, is this one place I haven?t seen for myself the source of how to really work biting and eye gouging, and it?s different from all the other guys who are sort of famous in the street self defense world and sell dvd?s. I?m assuming, No. But I could be wrong.
I know though that I had my eyes poked and groin grabbed and attempted bites and they were not a problem. I?ve also been beat by better boxers and grapplers.
?Do you really think that his trophies, or titles, or fame will comfort him at night? No.
Now, if he had never been informed that there were systems where he could train how to defend against bites, then this would be a tragic tale indeed. On the other hand, if he had known of such a system and just chose not to do it, because either he would never need it, or he couldn’t do it in a sporting setting. Then he would unfortunately only have himself to blame for his situation. Basically because he had chosen to be led around by his ego, he had paid the price.
Now, to be honest, I would have remorse for his situation regardless of why it happened. But, I think I would feel worse for him if the former had been the case.
Of course, you might argue “well what if you spent all that time training to prevent bites and you ended up getting bitten anyways”? To this I would say; well if you really gave it everything you had and did everything you could to prevent it from happening, and it happened anyways, then maybe it was just meant to be. But if I knew that there was much more that I could have done but chose not to, then I would only have myself to blame.?
