Fighting

Training Bodybuilding
81

scrappy,

Notice that I have not once said that one should not train boxing/wrestling/BJJ/ect…

Yes, as I mentioned before, all of these systems teach necessary skills (striking, grappling).

My point was exactly as you said “while grappling/kickboxing learn how to incorporate all of the other arsenals into your training” (paraphrased). I completely agree that if you don’t train these things against a resisting opponent (sparring setting), then your chances of doing them in a real fight are pretty slim.

Also, doing so will allow you to handle larger stronger opponents easier than with just using “sport” oriented techniques. There are no weight classes in real fights, therefore one must be able to adapt to deal with opponents who are much larger and stronger than they are as well as being able to deal with those who are smaller and quicker.

An eye “attack” is not limited to an eye gouge. There are ways to train many types of eye attacks full speed against a resisting opponent. No, gouging your thumbs into your training partner’s head would not be very practical (at least if you want training partners).

However, the problem is a lack of knowledge and understanding as to different types of eye attacks and how to use them, not that they are not “Fully trainable”.

One last thing, is that I know someone who has used biting, eye attacks, nerve attacks etc… all of these things which you seem to think are inferior, effectively against Rickson Gracie (the supposed best of them all). So, if that’s not proof for all you BJJ practitioners that this stuff is essential to learn (both how to use and defend against), and can be effectively used on your system, then I don’t know what is.

Good training,

Sentoguy

82

So some guy beat up Rickson with eye attacks…Wait, what???
Sorry but I’ve never heard that one and I don’t think Rickson is the best of them all. He was a great champion in his day. now a days I’d say Fedor, Cro Crop, BJ Penn, Vanderlei, Arlovski are at the top of MMA.
I just think that principles of MMA are effective regardless of weight. If both people know the same things and are the same speed then the bigger guy will have a bit of an advantage possibly but the principles are correct and don’t assume that people will respond this way or that. People respond one way to a choke. They pass out. I know gouging isn’t the only eye attack. I’ve seen tons of different styles and eye attacks. Eye jabs and gouges, sand in the eyes, covers, whatever. Look, I really thought someone was asking for advice and as someone who has trained a lot of supposed street effective styles I want to say I thought they were a big waste. I find mma much more effective. As far as knowing someone who beat Rickson, I don’t know. Maybe it happened. But I know a few gracies and other MMA fighters and I’ve seen some of them get in street fights, after trying to avoid them and being antatoginized and assualted. I’ve never seen them in any trouble. And yes I’ve seen weapons used, or tried to be used against them.
I know one bjj guy who got his thumb dislocated bad while trying to choke some nut who jumped him. He said it hurt so bad when the guy ripped his thumb. He got so pissed he punched the guys face until his orbital broke. I saw a few other guys get bit, they were in a better position to bite back and they did and it was harder and nastier.
My point is, we don’t all know how to control an attacker on the feet or on the ground by instinct. However, even children and everyone know how to bite. Grab some meat, hold tight, bite and turn. It’s gonna hurt. But what if it doesn’t stop the guy. And it’s kind of savage. What if you can hold him from cross side until he loses his anger. I just think sport fighting teaches better things. Things we don’t know. We all know eyes, ears, groin and biting but we don’t all know how to choke or knock someone out with a cross. UFC originally welcomed all comers and systems. These types of matches have been fought in several countries. There are some obvious constants. Biting and dirty tricks are a one day seminar. Fighting mma is a life long, and I believe, healthy pursuit of sport and competition. It just so happens to also be effective in the street. Usuallly, nothing is a guarantee. And any mma fighter will tell you that. They actually don’t think they’re all that tough (some do). At least not the way a lot of street fight system guys think they’re tough and they’ve never been in a real fight where a guy is trying his hardest to finish them. I’m really spent on this.

83

Hi scrappy,

Well, honestly I’m not surprised you’ve never heard of it. It’s not something someone who has tried so hard to create an “invincible” image would go around talking about. I know from two reliable sources however that it did in fact happen.

Ok, I’m not knocking MMA fighters. I think they are light years ahead of most Reality Based Martial artists (not all however) in terms of conditioning. Some also have real skill. I think that these fighters would probably annihilate the average person in a street fight.

However, as I mentioned before, one should not train to fight the average person (and I know sport fighters train to fight trained fighters), but someone who is highly skilled (even perhaps better than themself).

Shihan Lysak always says about what we do “if you can match someone in striking and grappling (MMA), then when you implement Sento (the other 5 arsenals) you are going to get results”.

Think about it, if I can keep up with you striking and grappling, but I am much more versed in the use of eye attacks, biting, body handles, nerve attacks and environmental weapons, then I am going to win the fight.

Shihan Lysak has tested and proven his skills against many of the best martial artists in the world including but not limited to:
Frank Shamrock (who has openly admitted that Lysak’s system is the best one out there for Real Life Self Defense)
Joe Lewis
Keith Hackney
Maurice Smith
Several of the Gracies
Adam Guerra
etc…

He also has and continues to train with the best in the world. He is humble enough to know that he can always improve and is always looking for better ways to do things. However, this has also made his system extremely well rounded and versatile.

He has also told me that while there are guys out there who could probably give him a run for his money, if not beat him, in the ring. He has never trained with anyone who was able to last more than 5 minutes with him when it came to “Sento Free Fighting”, which is essentially as close to real fighting as one can come while still surviving the training.

Once again, for real world self defense, MMA= Good, Really well developed RBSD (such as Sento) = Better.

Good training,

Sentoguy

84

It may be. And I see your point.
I would like the see the guy who beat Rickson and see him say that to Rickson or Vanderlei Silva or a current top MMA guy and see what’s up. I once was talking to a guy who didn’t know I knew a few of the Gracie’s real well. he told me his buddy beat Royce in a challenge match. The story changed when I pursued for more details and told him I knew a couple other gracies.
So I still wanna hear the details of this Rickson beating.

Sure Rickson would want it quiet but why would the guy who beat him? I mean when Sakuraba beat the gracies it was well known. They don’t deny it? Where is the guy who beat Rickson in a real fight.

I agree a dirty trick might be good but the argument is would a grappler be surprised in a street fight. I dont think if he/she is training right, they will. Because grappling, in the context or MMA, is MIXED MARTIAL ARTS. It is simply what works.
Dirty tricks can work, but sure don’t mean you can beat a hard, fast puncher or a tough wrestler. My argument is dont take some classes that talk about dirty tricks and think you could even beat up a college level football player. The attributes of correct technique, timing, power, speed all beat out knowing how to do an eye shot.

So Lysak has some good endrosements. A lot of things have good endorsements. I mean the UFC fighters give endorsements, other systems need endorsements. It’s their endorsement that almost makes it valid cause people know they’re the real deal. Here’s the thing. Is time best spent on grappling basics and boxing in a realistic setting or time best spent on eye attacks and dirty moves?

I’d argue the basics and then in 10minutes you explain to a guys with sick hand speed, takedowns and submissions how to add an eye attack, if he ain’t figured that out anyway, and he’s that much better. And some of the endorsements are not from people i’d consider very credible on that site. You also need to look at what mo smith and frank shamrock actually say about the system. It’s pretty good. I won’t argue that. But fighting is a sport and attributes are important over knowing a secret spot to hit.

Also, my mma coach and his students who’ve been in UFC and pride never asked me to call them, master, sensei, shihan or anything weird. It think a lot of BJJ coaches and boxing coaches and wrestling coaches are so talented and they never use mysticism or dirty tricks or weird naming or heirarchies. All that stuff is unhealthy.

85

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
Also, my mma coach and his students who’ve been in UFC and pride never asked me to call them, master, sensei, shihan or anything weird. It think a lot of BJJ coaches and boxing coaches and wrestling coaches are so talented and they never use mysticism or dirty tricks or weird naming or heirarchies. All that stuff is unhealthy. [/quote]

Oh, you’re going to have to explain this one. What difference does it make if you call someone “teacher” in another language? I know there are tons of guys (and systems) that get off on that sort of thing (master, grandmaster, etc.) and there are guys who get off on not being having goofy titles, instead being an instructor or coach.

I honestly don’t see what the difference is. At my school, I’m technically an Assistant Instructor while the only honorific I get is, “sir” and that’s only if someone doesn’t know my name. Would things be different if they had to address me as “Assistant Instructor Cluster” or “Sifu Cluster?”

86

I’m not sure what to explain. I just never liked calling someone something other than coach or their name.
Master is kind of weird I think. And why not call them teacher, why do you have to call them teacher in another language. I just did so many different martial arts when I was young with Sifu, Sensei, Shidoan, Shihan, Sabonim and even when I was a little kid I thought it was weird. Why not Mr. So and So or Coach whatever.

I think most martial arts just really rubbed me the wrong way. Looking at it now, Maybe all the schools I went to were set up wrong or different than most, but I found it was a lot of formality and hype about how good this master was or whoever and yet they never fought anyone except with all these seemingly strange rules.

So about 11 years ago when I ran into a BJJ coach who was at the top of his game I was thinking I wonder what to call him, I wonder how to act and he was just really down to earth and didn’t act any better than me or like he could beat up anyone or any of that. he just loved BJJ, grappling and mma. He’d learn boxing or wrestling and didn’t have to much pride to admit he needed those things. And he didn’t put down martial arts I’d done or anything. It really influenced me, obviously. And all the traditional martial arts and such were so much more stand offish and heireachchical in a way that i thought was not positive and did not focus on the students development.

87

Hi scrappy,

Well, as to the comment about calling someone Shihan, or Sensei, etc… it’s simply a matter of respect and yes, acknowledging their accomplishments.

Now, I agree that there are a lot of guys out there who “get off” on that type of thing and who really haven’t earned such a title. However, when you’ve been through what Walt and Charlie have been through, I’d say you deserve it. Just check out Walt’s credentials, definetely not something that was achieved in a couple years. Both he and Charlie have been training since they could walk, and have endured some of the most hardcore training that I have ever heard of. When you have special forces guys telling you that you’re crazy for doing some of the things you’ve done, you know you’re hardcore.

Ok, back to the “dirty fighting” discussion. Once again I’m not arguing that one should train striking and grappling. But, to suggest that those two arsenals are superior to the other 5 is like saying a carpenter’s hammer is superior to his saw. This is simply not the case. Both tools are useful and necessary, and combining the two tools allows the carpenter to achieve more than either one would by itself. Also, these techniques are not learnable in a “10 minute” time period as you suggest (not if you actually want to be able to use them effectively and efficiently when you are under the stress of real combat). They require just as much time and effort to master as any other arsenal. Not to mention the time it takes to blend all the arsenals together synergistically.

As far as MMA being “what works”, well yes, if you are playing by MMA rules. But notice that eye attacks, biting, nerve attacks, body handles and environmental weapons are illegal in MMA competitions, even though they can be used non lethally. Why? Because MMA is as you put it a SPORT. A sport that is geared to draw crowds, money and not piss off the censors. If these arsenals were allowed;

  1. the fights would be much shorter
  2. many people would probably be uncomfortable watching it
  3. you would have the censors all over the MMA organizations

Also, if those other 5 arsenals were allowed in MMA and the guys that only used strikes and grappling consistently beat the guys who used strikes, grappling, eye attacks, nerve attacks, biting, body handles and environmental weapons, then you could say that those arsenals were superior. But this is simply not the case.

As to practicing striking and grappling in a realistic setting, I am all for that. That means practicing on asphalt, gravel, ice, snow, grass, in mud, in the rain, etc… However, doing this will make you realize that there are definate adjustments that one must make depending on their environment. Few actually do this however. The Lysaks are among the few who do.

For instance, back to the original question on this thread “would a double leg be appropriate?”. Try doing a double leg on pavement sometime. Now, if you’re like most wrestlers and MMA stylists that I have seen, you are taught to slam your knee (of the penetration leg) down to generate the upward lift needed to uproot your opponent.

On the mat this is great, and very effective. On the pavement, this can result in you shattering your knee cap. I actually seem to recall hearing that Renzo had made this mistake himself. So, one must adjust their double leg technique to doing it on pavement if one wants to avoid suffering this injury themselves.

Finally as to fighting being a “sport”. Well, only sport fighing is a sport. Real fighting is not a sport, it’s real fighting. No rules, no ref, no time limits, and the winner is decided by the one who is alive at the end. The Colleseum in ancient Rome featured real combat. The winner was the guy who lived. There is a huge difference.

I’m sorry to hear about your negative experiences in the past with “traditional” systems. But, it’s great that you’ve found something that you really enjoy. My advice would simply be to “call a spade a spade”. In other words realize that what you are doing is a sport oriented system (and a good one at that), not a Reality Based Self Defense system. If you are looking to excell in a sport setting what you are learning will serve you well, if you want something that will work in a life or death situation, then seek out a good RSBD system.

Good training,

Sentoguy

88

Nightwing1 seems to have a point.
i was once in a fight where my friend and I were kind of just attacked unexpectedly. When the guy who went for me stood up (he was seated) i gave a swift jab to his face, then tied up real tight high up on his body. I have a wrestling background and i reverted to it since i was a little bit trashed. The tie up was instinctive and the best thing i could have done in that situation. The guy comming after me didnt know what to do besides flail and try to swing. his punching power was gone since his arms couldnt move very far and it was a weird angle to punch.

So long story short, for me atleast, the tie up was a great way of neutralizing an attacker. if it wasnt one-on-one, and we were outnumbered, then perhaps a different story.

89

the ground is fucking hard as hell. its not a wrestling mat or dojo mat. concrete, possible with glass broken all around, will mess up your day. Just strike to defend yourself, then look for the easiest way out. that is, if you are not looking for a fight…

90

There has been some really smart advice provided so far on this topic. Heres what I can add. I have been training for boxing/grappling for a little while now and this is what I can tell you. I have been in five actual street or bar fights and not one of them was worth it. The next day, after sobering up, you will always be the asshole who got in a fight when he was drunk. If you want to test yourself, train a while and sign yourself up for a legit fight. That way it’s controlled. If some fight is actuualy going to go down and it can’t be avoided, here are some rules:

  1. Shut up, the time to talk has ended. (your in a fight, I hope you have some practice to know what it will feel like)

  2. Strike quick and heavy. (if your really a tough guy you should be able to dodge and block his bigger shots)

  3. Strike as much as you can, and if the guy wraps you up;

  4. Use your elbows and knees to break away.

  5. Stay alert! (You might have just landed a few solid body shots, but he is always one lucky shot away from destroying you.)

91

It hadn’t happened to Renzo, knee shattering on a double leg, but a guy I know.
Renzo doesn’t like the double leg in the street and I think I said don’t go for the legs. to many if’s.

If he sprawls and knees and if you hit your knee on pavement it’s bad news. I’d suggest a guy familiar with grappling does the clinch, upper body and goes from there. Against most people he’d have an advantage. I’d argue a trained grappler has a huge advantage over almost anyone not good in grappling once the clinch is acheived.

And it isn’t that hard to get. Knives, guns and other things, once drawn, are a different story. If a guy hides one of those until the right time it don’t matter what you know he’s probably gonna hurt you real bad if he wants to.

92

[quote]Cluster wrote:
havoc501 wrote:

thats what upsets me about womens self defense classes that are heavy on the striking.i remember the tae bo commercials where chicks were on there saying how much more confident they were and that they weren’t afraid to walk down the street anymore.giving women this false sense of security is a terrible thing imo.how a 130 lbs. women thinks she’s gonna hurt a 180-220 lbs.man with a punch to the face is beyond me.
teaching them how to deal with those sit. or how to avoid them is better.giving them a whistle or mace is a better choice.

Increased confidence doesn’t necessarily mean that the woman’s going to go walking down dark alleys because she knows the jab/cross combo.

As I understand, the main thing about self-defense classes are going to do is make you feel like you could defend yourself if need be and not meekly submit to everything, never look people in the eyes etc.

From personal experience, just looking like you’re not going to take any crap is going to deter people from messing with you. If someone’s going to attack someone, why would they pick someone who looks like they’re confident enough to fight back instead of waiting for someone else to come by?

Isn’t teaching someone that it’s OK to walk down their own street at night worth something?

I hate to throw a stat out without any backup, but since everyone else is doing it…www.girlsfightback.com had a stat that showed that women who fought back during an attack were much less likely to be seriously injured than women who submitted. Even if that girl throws her little TaeBo jab/cross, it may make a difference.

You recommend giving women mace, but are you going to take the time to train them to use it? That stuff’s not something you can just clip on your keychain and expect to hit someone in the eyes while you’re being hassled. I would say that that’s more dangerous than teaching someone a few punches.

Although I do have to say that a serious self-defense program would be ideal, I don’t think that the others are as harmful as you suggest.[/quote]

maybe you haven’t heard some of the shit women talk after those classes.

being confident,and being confident that you can hand a man his ass are two different things.

i’m not saying women shouldn’t fight back,i’m saying don’t tell them that punching your 220 lbs. attacker in the mouth,and then a kick to the stomach are going to render him helpless.i’m sorry,and i’m not trying to be a tough guy,but i know a 120lbs. women hitting me would just piss me off or make me laugh.

you don’t wanna give them mace?tell them to stick their biggest key in between their first and second finger.if anything happens use this to gouge at his eyes while your screaming for help.give them things that have a chance of working.

93

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
okay
so you shouldn’t fight in the street.
It’s stupid, you could get shot, you could go to jail. So if you like combat do boxing, wrestling, bjj, or thai… or a mix. If you like street fighting then have freinds and weapons on you at all times. No BS system is going to prepare you for the street. At least training one of the above sports you’ll be a better athlete and maybe if you get into it ‘on the street’ one day you’ll do okay.

No, not as good as the Krav guys who practice gun disarms (LMAO) or other systems that promise me if I punch a guy here his spleen will explode and he’ll bend over and then I can hit him there, like it’s that easy. No not as good as them, but maybe you’ll survive. I mean I’m sure Georges St. Pierre would be dead in street fight if someone was stronger. He’s all strength right? No technique?!?!?!

The more I read in this thread, the more I love the conversation. I’ve got about 12 years of living and breathing the martial arts, and the most important things relating to the actual fight are this:

Most people freak out when attacked. If they train lightly doing tae-bo, tae kwan do, or karate, they just take the fetal position and take a pounding.

Even if they are well trained, they may just stiffen up. I’ve seen guys that can hit like a sledgehammer, but when it comes to push and shove, they freeze.

When grapplers freeze up, they charge. The technique usually looks pretty bad, but they get to the ground and hold on. Not ideal in all situations, but one on one it is pretty good.

That being said, whatever you do, do it with some resistance, and if you never get a cut or a bruise, what you are doing will not help. Not rocket science, but true none the less.

[/quote]

great points here.
the big reasons i say trained fighters(by trained fighters i mean,boxers,kickboxers,mma) have a better than average chance of winning a street fight is,

1.conditioning.even if they at first falter,chances are that if their attacker doesn’t finish them soon,he will tire and they won’t in a situation they’re use to.

2.reaction.i’ve had ppl at work who just wanna clown around and will come at me from nowhere,and i’ve reacted.because i’ve been there to an extent.

3.better at dealing with emotions that come with fighting.

wrestlers to me have the easiest time of it.

i had a friend in school who was an excellent person and an excellent martial artist.he some how pissed off one of the school assholes who wasn’t a halfbad wrestler.

we’re standing outside an establishment at a strip mall when this car flys up and stops real quick like.the door flies open,the dude flies outta the back seat and charges.my friend threw a really nice front kick.this was before my boxing and kickboxing days so i don’t know much about the martial arts.the kick lands and doubles the guy over.

it looked like stomach but could have been nuts.anyways,the guys hurt and my boy just stands there.dude regroups and goes on to a nice ground and pound.he knew how to throw but he didn’t know how to fight.hapkido was his art i believe.

94

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
I’m not sure what to explain. I just never liked calling someone something other than coach or their name.
Master is kind of weird I think. And why not call them teacher, why do you have to call them teacher in another language. I just did so many different martial arts when I was young with Sifu, Sensei, Shidoan, Shihan, Sabonim and even when I was a little kid I thought it was weird. Why not Mr. So and So or Coach whatever.

I think most martial arts just really rubbed me the wrong way. Looking at it now, Maybe all the schools I went to were set up wrong or different than most, but I found it was a lot of formality and hype about how good this master was or whoever and yet they never fought anyone except with all these seemingly strange rules.

So about 11 years ago when I ran into a BJJ coach who was at the top of his game I was thinking I wonder what to call him, I wonder how to act and he was just really down to earth and didn’t act any better than me or like he could beat up anyone or any of that. he just loved BJJ, grappling and mma. He’d learn boxing or wrestling and didn’t have to much pride to admit he needed those things. And he didn’t put down martial arts I’d done or anything. It really influenced me, obviously. And all the traditional martial arts and such were so much more stand offish and heireachchical in a way that i thought was not positive and did not focus on the students development.[/quote]

i feel the same way.it’s just someone buying into the whole thing too much.
heres a funny,maybe humiliating story about me.
i boxed.i boxed until i saw the second k-1.i loved it.i wanted to do that.

i wanted to kick. so i went to some local schools.everything here was korean in origin.i noticed they didn’t kick the same as the k-1 fighters,but hey it was kicking.i started taking classes and hated it.i boxed and understood that mentality,couldn’t wrap my head around the forms and standing in lines,but stuck with it for awhile.i thought,maybe if i more asian things it would help.

so i’m buying karate mags,getting books from the library,and get this, eating chinese food.thinking that if i can incorporate some asian things into my life it will help.be nice,i was young.

found out the style of kicking and kneeing that i liked in k-1 was from muaythai,looked a lil deeper and here i am.but after that i remained me,learned the tech.but not the art/spritual side of things.plus kickboxing/muaythai were more like boxing training.there was no testing,except in the ring.

95

[quote]MSpencer wrote:
There has been some really smart advice provided so far on this topic. Heres what I can add. I have been training for boxing/grappling for a little while now and this is what I can tell you. I have been in five actual street or bar fights and not one of them was worth it. The next day, after sobering up, you will always be the asshole who got in a fight when he was drunk. If you want to test yourself, train a while and sign yourself up for a legit fight. That way it’s controlled. If some fight is actuualy going to go down and it can’t be avoided, here are some rules:

  1. Shut up, the time to talk has ended. (your in a fight, I hope you have some practice to know what it will feel like)

  2. Strike quick and heavy. (if your really a tough guy you should be able to dodge and block his bigger shots)

  3. Strike as much as you can, and if the guy wraps you up;

  4. Use your elbows and knees to break away.

  5. Stay alert! (You might have just landed a few solid body shots, but he is always one lucky shot away from destroying you.)
    [/quote]

what part of pa r u from?

96

Hi scrappy,

Okay, sorry about my misinformation. But the argument still stands. I’m glad you agree me.

Yes, I personally prefer the upper body clinch myself. My point however was not to say that doing a double leg was inferior to an upper body clinch. My point was to point out the need to adjust your strategy/training depending on what surface you are fighting on (your environment).

On pavement, I would not do a double leg. But, on grass or carpet, or some other surface that gives, I might choose to shoot a double. It really depends on the situation.

As far as guns, knives, etc… yes, there is a good chance that if they really know what they’re doing, then they may deploy the weapon and do some damage. However, there is a difference between surviving an attack and surviving an attack unscathed. Chances are, unless you are way better than your opponent, that you are going to get hurt. Even more so if they are armed.

But, the point is to survive. If you are ready for such weapons (have trained to defend them in a realistic manner), your chances of surviving are drastically increased. It’s of course possible to survive if you haven’t prepared to, but I personally would not want to take that chance.

Good training,

Sentoguy

97

I agree with respecting your environment. I just don’t know that you need to train that all that much. If you have a nasty right cross, good clinch, one or two ‘money’ takedowns and some stong positions or submissions, that you practice against a resisting opponenet and you can pull them off, most street confrontations are easy so long as your attacker doesn’t have a gun/knife drawn. That is so clearly a different story that it almost needn’t be said.

I have been pinched so hard on the inner thigh, thumbed in the eye, groin grabbed, bit and nearly every other damn thing but they didnt’ stop me from getting to good position and choking. It’s like training with weights, you do money exercises, bang for the buck.

If you wanna get good at fighting, train the basics. BJJ/Boxing/MMA/Thai/Wrestling all have rules but everyone knows them and more importantly everyone knows how to ignore them if the situation calls for this. It is not a highly trainable skill. Is my bite better than Randy Couture’s? I don’t know. I do know he’d take me down. How is my pinch/pressure point attack versus Cro Cop’s? I’m just as good at him I gaurantee it. Too bad he’d knock me the f$@# out. My eye gouge is just as good as Rickson’s…too bad he’d choked me out though.

Why? Their basics are better and override the breif pain I might cause them until they just address the pinch/bite/gouge and proceed to do what they’ve done to hundreds of people who all know how to fight dirty. If you have limited resources spend your time training the takedowns, chokes and hits that work over and over.

98

Hi scrappy,

Well I’m glad you agree about the need to adjust to your environment. Whether or not you need to pay specific attention to the matter is once again a question of applicability and need. Sure, if you’re only going to compete in MMA, then addressing the environmental factors would be a breif pursuit indeed. On the other hand if you’re preparing for a real life encounter, then the time you would spend on this would be greatly increased.

Well, perhaps you have experienced biting, eye attacks, nerve attacks, body handles, etc… first hand, at least to a certain degree. But, who was the person doing them to you? I can gaurantee you that if Charlie Lysak grabbed a hold of your balls, you would tap. Don’t think so? Well, I am sure you are a tough guy, but let’s face it, you’re still human. When a guy who can close the Captains of Crush #3 gripper (which requires approximately 280 lbs of pressure to close) 100 (yes you read that right) consecutive times grabs a hold of your balls and squeezes as hard as they can, you’re going to give up, fast. Also, did they really know what they were doing?

I also never said that these things would necessarily end the fight (although they could if done correctly). Nor, did I say that they made up a superior fighting system in and of themselves. What I said is that they are essential skills to learn (both how to use and defend against) in a real fight.

Lastly, you addressed the need for basics. I am completely in agreement with you here. Basics are absolutely essential and need to be developed. After all you can’t build a sturdy house on a weak foundation. However, the foundational skills of one arsenal are not necessarily superior to that of another.

Think about it. Let’s take two arsenals that are most commonly addressed; striking and grappling. Which is better? The answer is neither, and both. There have been plenty of strikers who have been beaten by grapplers, and vice versa. Therefore, we must conclude that both striking and grappling are essential. Why would it be any different with the other 5 arsenals?

You are trying to compare apples to oranges. I agree that if someone far outclasses you in one arsenal and you do not have an arsenal that you far outclass them in (which applies to all of the examples you gave), then you’re most likely going to lose. If on the other hand, you can keep up with them in every arsenal that they practice, but you far outclass them in several others, then the odds are you’re going to win. See my point?

Good training,

Sentoguy

99

I think I’m comparing athletes and oranges. Too much time spent on dirty tricks everyone knows takes away from training the sport basics that support all other tactics. Solid strike defense, clinch, takedown, submission, timing, positioning, footwork. Spend your time on those and you’ll be fine. If someone still gets in a good position and chooses to grab your nuts rather than punch or choke then so he chooses and you are f’ed because of the postion not the tactic.

Also, I’ve been to a Rickson seminar and know several who’ve been to others. I’ve gotten only stories of people trying body grabs and pressure points and losing. No one has been able to validate the story of Rickson being held down, helpless.
so let’s say he was. The gracies/mma guys wooped up on tons of challengers for years before the UFC and MMA matches got rules and other things. Over and over they won, the same way.

And, they taught others to do this. Now, using the same stuff, or the same stuff defende with some good boxing and some Gracies have been beat. I think Rickson would have a tough time with many of todays best MMA guys. What the gracies/mma is saying is we can teach this to almost anyone and if they practice they can beat anyone. They have to train as hard to beat people at the pro level and less hard to beat average Joe.

Okay, they beat tons of guys and it’s on tape. I’ve seen tons of other street fight tapes and you can see where you would try to grab the clinch and take down when it’s just wild swinging. What I have to ask is, why on these fights do you not see pressure points/eye gouges and such working? Cause in the heat of the match the jackhammering of punches on your head take precedence over a pressure point.

To overcome the jackhammering, I recommend the clinch and put the guy against a car/wall/poll whatever. Then, elbow him when you can while he’s pinned. Maybe take him down.
Now, the gaurd is there in case you get taken down, I wouldn’t pull gaurd unless I was Pe De Pano or some gaurd super freak.

All I’m saying is, this stuff is so tried and true. All I know about Sento is a story I can’t validate and I cannot picture Rickson being held on bottom by nerve attacks. I can picture him being thrown in a sambo match as I think he was and I think he lost and everyone made such a huge deal over it. Why didn’t they make a huge deal about his loss at a seminar. tons of haters would be clammering for this info. But I’ve asked a lot of the old seminar goers and I have yet to find anything but laughter at all the times they saw guys try dirty tricks and pressure points.

100

About nut grabbing. So if I grab a guys nuts and I twist and I use my other hand to push them away and rip back with the hand holding the nuts or just squeeze the balls and twist it’ll hurt. I will hurt from that I can assure you. But the guy had better have better position when he goes for it.

Renzo Gracie once told about on of his uncle’s first fights where a guy grabbed his nuts and held so long and hard he almost passed out. He beat the shit out of the guy, stayed composed and thought sore, he won. Most people know how to grab nuts. They know what they’re doing. What if I mount a guy and control both his hands. there is a way out, but it ain’t by grabbing nuts anymore is it? No, and that kind of control is common for people.

Also, if you think that since the early 1900’s the Gracies haven’t been in real fights, in wild ass Brazil, where people know all the dirty shit you can think of and more, and pull knives and guns and everything, then you need to check out some of the bad parts of Brazil. They’ve been tested. Their stuff works. MMA works. No man is invicible, but their techniques work against a huge percentage of people. The proof is out there.