Fighting

Training Bodybuilding
61

[quote]bigscarymonster wrote:
For the love of god NO!

Never take someone to the ground in a street fight. the ground is the worst place you can be, there could be buddies of his around waiting to kick your ass, the guy could have a knife, he could get on top and destroy your face, and any number of other scenarios.

When you are in a street fight try to stay on your feet at all costs. Also if it is a true street fight and you are just trying to protect yourself don’t try to be too macho. Punch him in the throat or kick him in the knee and get the hell out of there.

The less time the other guy has to plan the better off you are, and remember, if your life or the life of someone you love is in danger their are no boundries as to what you should do. Remember that a good swift kick to the nuts will work in a pinch almost every time.

If it is a fight that you are doing just to be macho, don’t do it. There are too many dishonest people out there that are perfectly willing to knife you to win a fight. If your ego is too big to just walk away at least try to stay on your feet.

The last thing that I am going to say is that aside from sport fighting there are anly three reasons that you should get into a physical fight with someone else.
1.) Your are in danger.
2.) Someone you love is in danger.
3.) Someone that cannot protect themselves is in danger.

Monster[/quote]

wow.
bows down

62

I’m a bouncer at a large bar out in the Hamptons during the summer here are just a few observations from several years of this crap.

  1. The winner goes to jail and the loser goes to the hospital

  2. Most “fights” are over before they began due to the sucker punch

  3. Stay off the ground if you can help it(my crooked nose can atest to this)

  4. Bigger is good,skilled is better, bigger and skilled is best

  5. And last but not least. Don’t F with the bouncers. I train hard, I fight harder, I’ve been doing this longer, I will only put up with so much, This is my house, and the cops will ALWAYS take my side!

63

[quote]Boot wrote:
5. And last but not least. Don’t F with the bouncers. I train hard, I fight harder, I’ve been doing this longer, I will only put up with so much, This is my house, and the cops will ALWAYS take my side![/quote]

Everyone needs to remember this. I’ve seen bouncers really trash people and have them arrested. A double whammy for the instigator.

64

Umm…I’ve seen bouncers being pulled out of bars by the cops and getting a serious beat down on the street for going too far with drunken kids. For the most part you’re right about the cops siding with the bouncers, but to say that they will always side with you is questionable.

65

Hi guys,

Some great points have been made in this thread.

I completely agree that grappling is a necessary skill set, in the ring or on the street.

However, as has been mentioned, most grapplers don’t appropriate their skills to the street. They almost never train on realistic surfaces and usually adhere to too many rules while practicing.

Sure, I think in the right situation a double/single leg takedown can be very successful and appropriate. However, the key phrase here is “in the right situation”.

Generally the situation will determine what is appropriate. No technique is always appropriate for every situation. Nor is any skill set/weapon/ect…

Now, as to the comments about “kicking people in the nuts” or “striking them in the throat”; Yes, these are very effective targets. However, one must still have the experiential knowledge to actually be able to deliver such attacks in physical combat.

Therefore, not including them into your skills is a mistake, due to the fact that you have not taken advantage of targets that could have ended the fight for you. But, on the same note, not taking the time to actually spar and learn proper distancing, timing, and accuracy will make these techniques very difficult to actually execute in a real fight. The best way is to combine the two.

Think about it this way, so far everyone has been only thinking about what they would do/have done in a fight before. Well, what you need to do is to think in terms of “what would I advise a small woman or child to do in a fight”.

This will allow you to understand what will really be effective, against almost anyone regardless of size, strength, athleticism, etc… In other words instead of preparing for the “best case scenario” you should be preparing for the “worst case scenario” (by the way if this really were the worst case scenario, there would be multiple attackers, they would be armed, the victim would not be armed, and the victim would also have to protect his/her family/loved ones).

If you can teach a 10 year old kid how to effectively defend himself against a 300 lb weight lifter, now you’ve got something.

In such a case, are you going to tell him to grapple with the guy? No. To try to out box/kickbox the guy? No. Well then, what would you tell him to do?

I myself would tell him to bite, attack the vital targets (eyes, throat, groin, etc…), be as viscious and primal as possible, and at the very first chance get the heck out of there!

Now, I am not suggesting that he not strike, or if there is an opportunity that he shouldn’t choke the guy out, but, seldom will he be able to do these things without the use of biting, eye attacks, body handles, nerve attacks and environmental weapons.

One final note that I wanted to say was, in terms of “if not BJJ/Boxing/Wrestling/Thai then what?” I would suggest checking out Sento, or iCAT.

Both systems teach striking (boxing, kickboxing, thai boxing, etc…), grappling (jiu-jitsu, judo, pankration, wrestling), as well as biting, eye attacks, nerve attacks, body handles, environmental weapons, verbal and postural self defense, cerebral self defense, and how to appropriate all of the above to realistic surfaces, conditions, and scenarios.

Sorry for the shameless plug, but, these two systems really are two of the best out there and anyone who is really looking for effective self defense will do well to train in them.

Good training,

Sentoguy

66

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Hi guys,

Some great points have been made in this thread.

I completely agree that grappling is a necessary skill set, in the ring or on the street.

However, as has been mentioned, most grapplers don’t appropriate their skills to the street. They almost never train on realistic surfaces and usually adhere to too many rules while practicing.

Sure, I think in the right situation a double/single leg takedown can be very successful and appropriate. However, the key phrase here is “in the right situation”.

Generally the situation will determine what is appropriate. No technique is always appropriate for every situation. Nor is any skill set/weapon/ect…

Now, as to the comments about “kicking people in the nuts” or “striking them in the throat”; Yes, these are very effective targets. However, one must still have the experiential knowledge to actually be able to deliver such attacks in physical combat.

Therefore, not including them into your skills is a mistake, due to the fact that you have not taken advantage of targets that could have ended the fight for you. But, on the same note, not taking the time to actually spar and learn proper distancing, timing, and accuracy will make these techniques very difficult to actually execute in a real fight. The best way is to combine the two.

Think about it this way, so far everyone has been only thinking about what they would do/have done in a fight before. Well, what you need to do is to think in terms of “what would I advise a small woman or child to do in a fight”.

This will allow you to understand what will really be effective, against almost anyone regardless of size, strength, athleticism, etc… In other words instead of preparing for the “best case scenario” you should be preparing for the “worst case scenario” (by the way if this really were the worst case scenario, there would be multiple attackers, they would be armed, the victim would not be armed, and the victim would also have to protect his/her family/loved ones).

If you can teach a 10 year old kid how to effectively defend himself against a 300 lb weight lifter, now you’ve got something.

In such a case, are you going to tell him to grapple with the guy? No. To try to out box/kickbox the guy? No. Well then, what would you tell him to do?

I myself would tell him to bite, attack the vital targets (eyes, throat, groin, etc…), be as viscious and primal as possible, and at the very first chance get the heck out of there!

Now, I am not suggesting that he not strike, or if there is an opportunity that he shouldn’t choke the guy out, but, seldom will he be able to do these things without the use of biting, eye attacks, body handles, nerve attacks and environmental weapons.

One final note that I wanted to say was, in terms of “if not BJJ/Boxing/Wrestling/Thai then what?” I would suggest checking out Sento, or iCAT.

Both systems teach striking (boxing, kickboxing, thai boxing, etc…), grappling (jiu-jitsu, judo, pankration, wrestling), as well as biting, eye attacks, nerve attacks, body handles, environmental weapons, verbal and postural self defense, cerebral self defense, and how to appropriate all of the above to realistic surfaces, conditions, and scenarios.

Sorry for the shameless plug, but, these two systems really are two of the best out there and anyone who is really looking for effective self defense will do well to train in them.

Good training,

Sentoguy

[/quote]

thats what upsets me about womens self defense classes that are heavy on the striking.i remember the tae bo commercials where chicks were on there saying how much more confident they were and that they weren’t afraid to walk down the street anymore.giving women this false sense of security is a terrible thing imo.how a 130 lbs. women thinks she’s gonna hurt a 180-220 lbs.man with a punch to the face is beyond me.
teaching them how to deal with those sit. or how to avoid them is better.giving them a whistle or mace is a better choice.

67

LOL…people talkin about weapons and stuff…atleast the person who posted this even knows what BJJ is. I dont understand why you people are so afraid of being stabbed and shot…you do into a fight with your hands and for the most part you will come out alive…you go into a fight with a weapon…then you will most likely die…“live by the sword, die by the sword”. A street fight is a street fight and about 85% of them end up on the ground…so i would say get as proficienct in modern BJJ…bjj thats geard to MMA…because its not traditional which is like all grappling art, in modern mma geared bjj its geared towards punching and shit…in other words…double leg…mount…ground and pound. All the bjj is there for is to allow you to be so good on the ground you can always have the top spot to beat the guy below you…if he pulls out a knife in the course of the fight and you get stabbed…so be it…you die…so be it…atleast you died like a man. Whats to live for anyway? Don’t listen to adults, they are warped…listen to 17 year olds like me who can woop their old asses.

68

havoc501,

I’m glad you have become aware of the ridiculousness of many women’s self defense programs as well. And I absolutley agree with you that anyone who takes Tae Bo and thinks they know even the first thing about fighting, or hot to strike for that matter, is suffering from delusions of gradure.

facko,

Yes, weapons are a very real threat in a real fight. Yes, you should worry about them (both how to use them and how to defend against them).

No, MMA geared BJJ (or any MMA geared art) is not the best option for a real street fight. Like I stated in my post, grappling is a necessary skill set, but it must be appropriated to street fighting.

By the way, I know what BJJ is. I just have also had the advantage of learning reality based grappling as well. And I will also say that BJJ is by no stretch of the imagination innately superior to other grappling arts.

Your blatant misuse of the phrase “live by the sword, die by the sword” speaks volumes about your lack of understanding of real combat. Do you really think that it means, if you use edged weapons you will die? I sincerely hope not.

I am not opposed to one using their god given weapons in a fight (fists, feet, knees, etc…). However, to suggest that if you go into a fight with a knife that you will most likely die is utterly ridiculous (that is unless the other guy has the knife).

Your comment about “85% of all street fights ending up on the ground” is an old one that I have heard many times before, usually one used to justify why grappling is superior.

However, what you may have failed to realize is that the reason 85% of all street fights end up on the ground (if that is even an accurate statistic) is because most street fights are between two unskilled opponents.

If one opponent is skilled and the other is not, it generally won’t even have time to go to the ground. If both opponents are highly skilled then there is no gaurantee either way, it really comes down to who is better at imposing their will.

Your extremely linear perception of how a fight will go if one knows BJJ once again only serves to prove that you don’t know what you are talking about.

What if they’re a better grappler than you? What if their buddies are right there waiting to kick your butt if their friend starts to lose? What if you suspect that they have an edged weapon?

Now, you are still quite young. You may not care whether you live or die (this is an extremely unhealthy outlook to have on life by the way, I hope for your sake that you find out whatever is making you so depressed and remedy it). However, what if it was the life of a loved one on the line as well as your’s?

What if losing/dying meant that someone was going to rape and murder your mother? Or little sister/brother, Grandmother, girlfriend? Do you understand what I am getting at? Sometimes the stakes are higher than just one’s own life or death. Still feel like being prepared for defending against a weapon is a waste of time, or sissy?

I honestly hope that you change your outlook on life. Sadly, this suggests that whatever martial arts school you have learned BJJ from is not fulfilling it’s obligation towards developing the characters of it’s students.

A good school teaches it’s students not only how to fight, but also how to be better people. This is one of the largest missing pieces of most MMA geared schools. Physical skills - character development = “Frankenstein Factory”.

Good luck and good training,

Sentoguy

69

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
havoc501,

I’m glad you have become aware of the ridiculousness of many women’s self defense programs as well. And I absolutley agree with you that anyone who takes Tae Bo and thinks they know even the first thing about fighting, or hot to strike for that matter, is suffering from delusions of gradure.

facko,

Yes, weapons are a very real threat in a real fight. Yes, you should worry about them (both how to use them and how to defend against them).

No, MMA geared BJJ (or any MMA geared art) is not the best option for a real street fight. Like I stated in my post, grappling is a necessary skill set, but it must be appropriated to street fighting.

By the way, I know what BJJ is. I just have also had the advantage of learning reality based grappling as well. And I will also say that BJJ is by no stretch of the imagination innately superior to other grappling arts.

Your blatant misuse of the phrase “live by the sword, die by the sword” speaks volumes about your lack of understanding of real combat. Do you really think that it means, if you use edged weapons you will die? I sincerely hope not.

I am not opposed to one using their god given weapons in a fight (fists, feet, knees, etc…). However, to suggest that if you go into a fight with a knife that you will most likely die is utterly ridiculous (that is unless the other guy has the knife).

Your comment about “85% of all street fights ending up on the ground” is an old one that I have heard many times before, usually one used to justify why grappling is superior.

However, what you may have failed to realize is that the reason 85% of all street fights end up on the ground (if that is even an accurate statistic) is because most street fights are between two unskilled opponents.

If one opponent is skilled and the other is not, it generally won’t even have time to go to the ground. If both opponents are highly skilled then there is no gaurantee either way, it really comes down to who is better at imposing their will.

Your extremely linear perception of how a fight will go if one knows BJJ once again only serves to prove that you don’t know what you are talking about.

What if they’re a better grappler than you? What if their buddies are right there waiting to kick your butt if their friend starts to lose? What if you suspect that they have an edged weapon?

Now, you are still quite young. You may not care whether you live or die (this is an extremely unhealthy outlook to have on life by the way, I hope for your sake that you find out whatever is making you so depressed and remedy it). However, what if it was the life of a loved one on the line as well as your’s?

What if losing/dying meant that someone was going to rape and murder your mother? Or little sister/brother, Grandmother, girlfriend? Do you understand what I am getting at? Sometimes the stakes are higher than just one’s own life or death. Still feel like being prepared for defending against a weapon is a waste of time, or sissy?

I honestly hope that you change your outlook on life. Sadly, this suggests that whatever martial arts school you have learned BJJ from is not fulfilling it’s obligation towards developing the characters of it’s students.

A good school teaches it’s students not only how to fight, but also how to be better people. This is one of the largest missing pieces of most MMA geared schools. Physical skills - character development = “Frankenstein Factory”.

Good luck and good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

Man, you’ve got a lot of time on your hands. I would have charged someone $75 for the time it took to write that!

70

Wow, there are a lot of really knowledgable and experienced people on this thread. Some great advice here.

I think one of the main points people are trying to make is that eye gouges/kicks to the groin, etc. can’t be COMPLETELY trained. Takedowns, sweeps, submissions, and even Thai kicks, punches and such, can be trained at full speed in a very close to realistic setting. Unless you are awesome and pay some depressed and retarded homeless man to be your punching bag, you CANNOT train eye gouges and other lethal/very damaging attacks in a sparring type setting!

So how else can you learn to fight unless you fight? Doing kata or practising at 1/4 of actual speed with little to no contact? Ahahaha… yeah right. At least in arts with a sport combat aspect, you get to “practise fighting.” As I said in a post a long time ago (I think) it is like going to university for kinesiology, not touching a weight, getting your Master’s degree and coming out 230 pounds of pure muscle. Just studying something will not make you a master, you must practise it daily.

Just like people use 2 MONTHS TO 69 POUND WEIGHT LOSS diets and liposuctions, people are hardly ever willing to put in effort to get results! They want a quick fix and will stop trying once they hit certain goals.

Most T-Nation readers spend thousands on supplements a year, way more than that on food, pay for a gym membership, maybe a seminar or book here or there, a lot of us take martial arts classes or play sports… and do this every year!!! And are you satisfied with your physique yet?

You can’t expect to train an art for 2 classes a week for 5 years and call yourself a master. You must, as someone said earlier, be a “warrior type who lives and breathes his art,” if you want to master anything.

And the reality is: martial arts are almost worthless unless you become proficient in them. Otherwise they will just give you a few good skills to use against untrained people, and a whole lot of false confidence. It’s not a martial art, but that Tae Bo lady saying she feels safe now… WTF!!! Sad thing is, Johnny will take karate at the Y, get his neon purple belt, and think he’s a badass. Then he gets jumped and gets beat up. Same thing.

Man I type too much… alright LAST thing! What is your goal in a fight? To lose? No. To win! So if you can win a fight by taking it to the ground, do it. If you can’t… well DON’T!! Simple.

71

[quote]havoc501 wrote:

thats what upsets me about womens self defense classes that are heavy on the striking.i remember the tae bo commercials where chicks were on there saying how much more confident they were and that they weren’t afraid to walk down the street anymore.giving women this false sense of security is a terrible thing imo.how a 130 lbs. women thinks she’s gonna hurt a 180-220 lbs.man with a punch to the face is beyond me.
teaching them how to deal with those sit. or how to avoid them is better.giving them a whistle or mace is a better choice.
[/quote]

Increased confidence doesn’t necessarily mean that the woman’s going to go walking down dark alleys because she knows the jab/cross combo.

As I understand, the main thing about self-defense classes are going to do is make you feel like you could defend yourself if need be and not meekly submit to everything, never look people in the eyes etc.

From personal experience, just looking like you’re not going to take any crap is going to deter people from messing with you. If someone’s going to attack someone, why would they pick someone who looks like they’re confident enough to fight back instead of waiting for someone else to come by?

Isn’t teaching someone that it’s OK to walk down their own street at night worth something?

I hate to throw a stat out without any backup, but since everyone else is doing it…www.girlsfightback.com had a stat that showed that women who fought back during an attack were much less likely to be seriously injured than women who submitted. Even if that girl throws her little TaeBo jab/cross, it may make a difference.

You recommend giving women mace, but are you going to take the time to train them to use it? That stuff’s not something you can just clip on your keychain and expect to hit someone in the eyes while you’re being hassled. I would say that that’s more dangerous than teaching someone a few punches.

Although I do have to say that a serious self-defense program would be ideal, I don’t think that the others are as harmful as you suggest.

72

Sentoguy: I’m pretty sure Facko was pulling your chain.

At least I hope he was.

73

okay
so you shouldn’t fight in the street.
It’s stupid, you could get shot, you could go to jail. So if you like combat do boxing, wrestling, bjj, or thai… or a mix. If you like street fighting then have freinds and weapons on you at all times. No BS system is going to prepare you for the street. At least training one of the above sports you’ll be a better athlete and maybe if you get into it ‘on the street’ one day you’ll do okay.

No, not as good as the Krav guys who practice gun disarms (LMAO) or other systems that promise me if I punch a guy here his spleen will explode and he’ll bend over and then I can hit him there, like it’s that easy. No not as good as them, but maybe you’ll survive. I mean I’m sure Georges St. Pierre would be dead in street fight if someone was stronger. He’s all strength right? No technique?!?!?!

74

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
okay
so you shouldn’t fight in the street.
It’s stupid, you could get shot, you could go to jail. So if you like combat do boxing, wrestling, bjj, or thai… or a mix. If you like street fighting then have freinds and weapons on you at all times. No BS system is going to prepare you for the street. At least training one of the above sports you’ll be a better athlete and maybe if you get into it ‘on the street’ one day you’ll do okay.

No, not as good as the Krav guys who practice gun disarms (LMAO) or other systems that promise me if I punch a guy here his spleen will explode and he’ll bend over and then I can hit him there, like it’s that easy. No not as good as them, but maybe you’ll survive. I mean I’m sure Georges St. Pierre would be dead in street fight if someone was stronger. He’s all strength right? No technique?!?!?![/quote]

The more I read in this thread, the more I love the conversation. I’ve got about 12 years of living and breathing the martial arts, and the most important things relating to the actual fight are this:

Most people freak out when attacked. If they train lightly doing tae-bo, tae kwan do, or karate, they just take the fetal position and take a pounding.

Even if they are well trained, they may just stiffen up. I’ve seen guys that can hit like a sledgehammer, but when it comes to push and shove, they freeze.

When grapplers freeze up, they charge. The technique usually looks pretty bad, but they get to the ground and hold on. Not ideal in all situations, but one on one it is pretty good.

That being said, whatever you do, do it with some resistance, and if you never get a cut or a bruise, what you are doing will not help. Not rocket science, but true none the less.

75

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
okay
so you shouldn’t fight in the street.
It’s stupid, you could get shot, you could go to jail. So if you like combat do boxing, wrestling, bjj, or thai… or a mix. If you like street fighting then have freinds and weapons on you at all times. No BS system is going to prepare you for the street. At least training one of the above sports you’ll be a better athlete and maybe if you get into it ‘on the street’ one day you’ll do okay.

No, not as good as the Krav guys who practice gun disarms (LMAO) or other systems that promise me if I punch a guy here his spleen will explode and he’ll bend over and then I can hit him there, like it’s that easy. No not as good as them, but maybe you’ll survive. I mean I’m sure Georges St. Pierre would be dead in street fight if someone was stronger. He’s all strength right? No technique?!?!?![/quote]

Oh, and gun disarms - they are awsome.

I once saw a guy take a machine gun from a thug before the guy could blink. And he did it while evading a shot from a rocket launcher and jumping over a tank. Alsolutely freakin’ awsome!

76

Going to the groung could be the best or worst thing you can do, depending on the situation.

Outnumbered? Never go to the ground the others will stomp you to death. Its best to keep it standing at all times. Look up the Bas or Crocop DVD. They discuss/teach various one hit KO methods, inculding the infmaous LHKs.

One on one? Take the bastard to the ground and pound the living snot out of them like Mark Coleman or Mark Kerr used to do.

77

Hey bro. it’s not that complicated.Just make sure you don’t get a mouth full of a knee.There are no three minute rounds and no mediator.Staying low is good but, shooting in on somebody that knows how to use the knees could be bad news.If its not in a cage or on a matt, the best advice I would give is to avoid it. That wouldn’t make you a puss or anything but,…Hell you know as well as I do, Aint nobody bulletproof.Peace and good luck.

Biscuite

78

‘If you can teach a 10 year old kid how to effectively defend himself against a 300 lb weight lifter, now you’ve got something.’

okay, that would be something, cause if the weight lifter wants to hurt the kid, he’s gonna
and probably the adult with him who does karate, or tai chi, or street bite training or whatever myths are popular with guys who don’t want to put their pride aside and box or roll and find out they are not invincible.

I did a lot of martial arts since I was 6. I’m 31 and I’ve seen it all. sport fighting and the way it’s trained is the way to go. You’ll learn above all that you’re not that tough. And you can look for nerve strikes, eye gouges and bites while you’re boxing/rolling. Maybe you’ll get one. And maybe you’ll get hit on the jaw and go out like a light switch or get choked. I’ve seen people bite the gracies, it didn’t turn out good for them.

Then I saw guys train boxing/wresting/bjj/thai and beat the gracies. Go figure. the same techniques the gracies use on people, get used ont them. What a great testament to the true effectiveness of something. No one is above it. Bas and Cro crop are well versed on the ground and it makes there striking that much more dangerous. Cause you can’t just run at them with head down and tackle. If I could tell someone wanting to defend themselves anything it’s get some solid basics in boxing and bjj.

You don’t have to get hurt training, but some times learn what it’s like to go hard, and use your head.
Ben Johnson had a great self defense system. He’s a friggin fast runner.

79

[quote]Scrappy wrote:

Ben Johnson had a great self defense system. He’s a friggin fast runner.[/quote]

That’s a great quote, I’m going to have to steal it from you one day. The whole multiple attackers thing is killing me, because there really isn’t that much you can do if you are outnumbered…even Mike Tyson probably couldn’t protect his cornhole in prison, and he was a bad, bad man, but against 4 or 5 guys even the biggest, baddest dude won’t make it.

What if you’re part of the mob? How about you take down the guy and then your friend kicks him in the head? Sounds pretty good to me.

80

thanks slimjim and others for support. we proabably like to bang the same types of chicks.

I’m spent…over to the ass worship forum