Fighting Basics

Training
81

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Krav says until the threat is neutralised. The issue being discussed is if seeing some person(s) or situation that looks dangerous and you just avoid it altogether so that you don’t have to actually fight is self defense or not.

My take is that it is in the realm of defending yourself by just not being there kind of like slipping a punch or not putting your hand down when swinging a hammer etc… It is not self defense as many describe it with the thought of you actually using a technique or beating someone sensless after they attacked you.

So to sum it up if you aren’t there or avoid the situation you are defended from the situation, if it becomes unavoidable or taken by suprise then you will have to use self defense blocks and punches.[/quote]

What seems you dont consider is this= if you are being attacked,you are likely to be surprised,ambusted,outnumbered,out-weaponed,etc.
to put it another way,your chances of not being killed or hurt is less than 50 %,no matter who you are.If you choose to be naive about it to think otherwise,be my guest.

82

Actually seems like I’ve been confusing this thread for the other thread on “best self defense”. So, looks like it was my mistake regarding the original topic of this thread. My apologies.

Here is what I will say, and yes I’ve had to use physical self defense in the past, as well as being able to talk my way out of fights or even just fleeing the scene on occasions, I have not however ever experienced a war like yourself, nor do I pretend that I have as much experience with physical violence as some others on this board.

Regarding the use of physical self defense.

  1. If you avoid places/situations that you are more likely to get into physical confrontations at, you will greatly decrease your chances of having to use physical self defense. This is probably the most effective means of self defense, but it’s admittedly not that attractive to many, especially young adults as many times these places are popular places to meet and socialize with others their age. It’s up to the individual to decide whether they are willing to take this step and choose other less high risk places to spend their time and meet/socialize (like sports games/venues, Martial arts/boxing/wrestling/etc… studios/gyms, etc…), or not willing to do so and take their chances at these locations. Even then they can minimize their chances by leaving before the “wolves” (as Irish likes to put it) come out.

  2. If you find yourself in a situation where someone is trying to use verbal speech or physical posture to either intimidate you or illicit a violent response from you (seeking a physical confrontation), it is best to (at least initially) try to use verbal speech and postural self defense tactics to attempt to avoid the situation. We call these “escalating” confrontations as generally there is some escalation (some are slow, some are fast) of either energy or intensity prior to any physical violence. Even if you eventually do have to use physical self defense in these situations (which can happen obviously), then at least from a legal standpoint you can say that you attempted to avoid physical violence. Onlookers will also likely see you as the victim who was forced to defend yourself rather than an equally guilty party, or even the aggressor.

  3. If there is a large disparity of force (you are considerably smaller, think woman vs large man or child vs adult, they have a weapon, you are outnumbered, you know that they are highly trained and therefore more dangerous than the average person, etc…), then as long as they have expressed the will to do you harm and are in a position to do so, your best bet is probably to attack violently with the intent to stop the attacker and then get the hell out of Dodge. In these types of situations physical force is generally warranted and like you said it’s better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

  4. If you are ambushed, we call these “explosive” encounters as there is generally no forewarning/verbal dialogue prior to violence errupting (and therefore no chance to attempt to avoid the situation through verbal or physical self defense) then you are either going to a) be out cold before you even knew you what was going on b) be hurt but still conscious enough to be able to go into survival mode and hopefully eventually fight back and escape or finish the confrontation c) not really be hurt at all and be able to immediately launch into your own attack and finish the confrontation.

The situation will determine what type of actions are required, and yes I’d agree that average untrained people will either be frozen by fear when exposed to violence or the threat of violence, or go into “fight” mode and attack back. That is why you need to find someplace where they actually address things like mental, and emotional components of real world violence, things like weapons and multiple attackers, environmental factors, and other variables which occur in the real world which can change the appropriate course of action. But that place must also develop true combative ability (combat sports like boxing, muay thai, wrestling, bjj, sambo, and judo all do this well, but you also should learn other less sportive skills IMO as those will only magnify your combative ability when combined with the above sport friendly skills).

83

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Krav says until the threat is neutralised. The issue being discussed is if seeing some person(s) or situation that looks dangerous and you just avoid it altogether so that you don’t have to actually fight is self defense or not.

My take is that it is in the realm of defending yourself by just not being there kind of like slipping a punch or not putting your hand down when swinging a hammer etc… It is not self defense as many describe it with the thought of you actually using a technique or beating someone sensless after they attacked you.

So to sum it up if you aren’t there or avoid the situation you are defended from the situation, if it becomes unavoidable or taken by suprise then you will have to use self defense blocks and punches.[/quote]

What seems you dont consider is this= if you are being attacked,you are likely to be surprised,ambusted,outnumbered,out-weaponed,etc.
to put it another way,your chances of not being killed or hurt is less than 50 %,no matter who you are.If you choose to be naive about it to think otherwise,be my guest.[/quote]

I have been in that situation and I understand what you are saying. When it comes time that you do have to fight, you have to go 110%…trust me I know. However, in the realm of being defense minded individual you can avoid situations much easier if you learn to recognize them.

For example if you see a big ass mudhole on the ground you can walk through it because you got your boots on and you have the best boots in the world or you could still walk around it and keep your boots looking nice and lasting a long time :slight_smile: Now if the hole covers the whole road you can still keep walking because your boots will protect you… understand???

84

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Actually seems like I’ve been confusing this thread for the other thread on “best self defense”. So, looks like it was my mistake regarding the original topic of this thread. My apologies.

Here is what I will say, and yes I’ve had to use physical self defense in the past, as well as being able to talk my way out of fights or even just fleeing the scene on occasions, I have not however ever experienced a war like yourself, nor do I pretend that I have as much experience with physical violence as some others on this board.

Regarding the use of physical self defense.

  1. If you avoid places/situations that you are more likely to get into physical confrontations at, you will greatly decrease your chances of having to use physical self defense. This is probably the most effective means of self defense, but it’s admittedly not that attractive to many, especially young adults as many times these places are popular places to meet and socialize with others their age. It’s up to the individual to decide whether they are willing to take this step and choose other less high risk places to spend their time and meet/socialize (like sports games/venues, Martial arts/boxing/wrestling/etc… studios/gyms, etc…), or not willing to do so and take their chances at these locations. Even then they can minimize their chances by leaving before the “wolves” (as Irish likes to put it) come out.

  2. If you find yourself in a situation where someone is trying to use verbal speech or physical posture to either intimidate you or illicit a violent response from you (seeking a physical confrontation), it is best to (at least initially) try to use verbal speech and postural self defense tactics to attempt to avoid the situation. We call these “escalating” confrontations as generally there is some escalation (some are slow, some are fast) of either energy or intensity prior to any physical violence. Even if you eventually do have to use physical self defense in these situations (which can happen obviously), then at least from a legal standpoint you can say that you attempted to avoid physical violence. Onlookers will also likely see you as the victim who was forced to defend yourself rather than an equally guilty party, or even the aggressor.

  3. If there is a large disparity of force (you are considerably smaller, think woman vs large man or child vs adult, they have a weapon, you are outnumbered, you know that they are highly trained and therefore more dangerous than the average person, etc…), then as long as they have expressed the will to do you harm and are in a position to do so, your best bet is probably to attack violently with the intent to stop the attacker and then get the hell out of Dodge. In these types of situations physical force is generally warranted and like you said it’s better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

  4. If you are ambushed, we call these “explosive” encounters as there is generally no forewarning/verbal dialogue prior to violence errupting (and therefore no chance to attempt to avoid the situation through verbal or physical self defense) then you are either going to a) be out cold before you even knew you what was going on b) be hurt but still conscious enough to be able to go into survival mode and hopefully eventually fight back and escape or finish the confrontation c) not really be hurt at all and be able to immediately launch into your own attack and finish the confrontation.

The situation will determine what type of actions are required, and yes I’d agree that average untrained people will either be frozen by fear when exposed to violence or the threat of violence, or go into “fight” mode and attack back. That is why you need to find someplace where they actually address things like mental, and emotional components of real world violence, things like weapons and multiple attackers, environmental factors, and other variables which occur in the real world which can change the appropriate course of action. But that place must also develop true combative ability (combat sports like boxing, muay thai, wrestling, bjj, sambo, and judo all do this well, but you also should learn other less sportive skills IMO as those will only magnify your combative ability when combined with the above sport friendly skills).[/quote]

I agree.
Of all combat sports ,MMA is the best method to follow.

Thats what I did to prepare for my work as a bouncer,minus the ground work in closed position.On the street you dont want to take it to the ground if possible for a number of reasons.

85

IMO MMA is more of a philosophy than it is a system. Basically it’s just the realization that you need to be able to fight effectively both on your feet and on the ground. Really good RMA (Reality Martial Arts) is even better IMO when preparing for the real world though as it will teach you how to effectively fight in any situation (some which aren’t addressed in MMA like weapons, multiple opponents, different environments, etc…) as well as teach you the effective sport stuff (boxing, wrestling, jiu jitsu, and muay thai).

I would however agree that such RMA schools aren’t as easy to find as say a good boxing gym though, so people have to make the most out of what’s available to them.

86

The thing about MMA is that its reliable.It works against some of the baddest mofos around.I would rather use something reliable and tested,than something possibly superior but not tested.

Stuff that is used to win the fights at the top of MMA works.Its good enough for me use on the street if I have too.Of course,it needs to be tacticaly applied= youre not gonna take a man down and try to make an arm lock if two of his buddies are around and your head becomes a kicking ball hahahahahaha!!!

87

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
The thing about MMA is that its reliable.It works against some of the baddest mofos around.I would rather use something reliable and tested,than something possibly superior but not tested.

Stuff that is used to win the fights at the top of MMA works.Its good enough for me use on the street if I have too.Of course,it needs to be tacticaly applied= youre not gonna take a man down and try to make an arm lock if two of his buddies are around and your head becomes a kicking ball hahahahahaha!!! [/quote]

Hmmm, maybe I wasn’t clear with what I meant.

Combat sports like boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, etc… all pressure test their techniques and tactics against fully resisting, trained individuals. If a technique or tactic doesn’t work, they simply discard it or modify it so that it does. Many of them are also fairly old (boxing and wrestling are probably the 2 oldest martial arts) and therefore there has been a lot of time for them to refine and perfect their techniques.

Any good RMA is going to therefore utilize techniques and tactics from those combat sports (why re-invent the wheel). They will also however address aspects of interpersonal combat which are outside the realm of MMA and therefore not covered in combat sports (because it would be an unwise use of a combat sports athlete’s time to learn them). Things like weapons training, multiple assailant tactics, legal and moral aspects of violence, and verbal, postural and cerebral self defense to name a few.

There are proven methods for all of these “non sportive” aspects of combat as well that you will not learn in MMA or combat sports.

88

But like I said, good RMA’s are much less widespread and easily accessible as things like Boxing or even BJJ these days, so each individual has to make the best out of what’s readily available to them. Training for real at a decent boxing gym is going to develop more combative skill than watching videos or reading books about even the best RMA. Like any physical skill, hands on instruction and practice is what is going to ultimately produce the best results.

89

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
if youre dutch,stick to tulips gardening & leave the fighting stuff to us ;))[/quote]

Hehe, the entire K-1 begs to differ! ^^

90

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
The thing about MMA is that its reliable.It works against some of the baddest mofos around.I would rather use something reliable and tested,than something possibly superior but not tested.

Stuff that is used to win the fights at the top of MMA works.Its good enough for me use on the street if I have too.Of course,it needs to be tacticaly applied= youre not gonna take a man down and try to make an arm lock if two of his buddies are around and your head becomes a kicking ball hahahahahaha!!! [/quote]

Hmmm, maybe I wasn’t clear with what I meant.

Combat sports like boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, etc… all pressure test their techniques and tactics against fully resisting, trained individuals. If a technique or tactic doesn’t work, they simply discard it or modify it so that it does. Many of them are also fairly old (boxing and wrestling are probably the 2 oldest martial arts) and therefore there has been a lot of time for them to refine and perfect their techniques.

Any good RMA is going to therefore utilize techniques and tactics from those combat sports (why re-invent the wheel). They will also however address aspects of interpersonal combat which are outside the realm of MMA and therefore not covered in combat sports (because it would be an unwise use of a combat sports athlete’s time to learn them). Things like weapons training, multiple assailant tactics, legal and moral aspects of violence, and verbal, postural and cerebral self defense to name a few.

There are proven methods for all of these “non sportive” aspects of combat as well that you will not learn in MMA or combat sports. [/quote]

Lets take Muay Thai as an example.
Using Muay Thai stance is not good in the streetfight,coz being that much square and upright,its easier for your oponent to take you down.So,you got to modify that.your stance must be something between wrestlers stance & Muay Thai stance with your shoulder above the knee.
So,instead of doing these sports and modifying them for the street,you simply do MMA.Its a sport in its own right.

I actually had to solve the training for streetfight puzzle myself working full time as a bouncer for a long time.I experimented with a lot of things.Last year I did lots of kickboxing,but lots of this stuff is useless or risky on the street (axe kick,backflying fist,side kick,etc.) BJJ stuff that resembles physical chess on the groung is also not useful.

You also got to prepare for some specifics of your situation.For example,what lots of people dont realize is,when working as a bouncer and you have to eject an aggressive client,is that you got to take their glass away from them before you restrain them and eject them.Its quite a skill to do so fast and without the glass shatering and somebody gets cut with it.

If you are likely to get attacked in traffic while driving a car then some stuff about raming cars,getting out of the car quickly and tacticaly,etc. needs to be emphasized.

91

[quote]Kardash wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
if youre dutch,stick to tulips gardening & leave the fighting stuff to us ;))[/quote]

Hehe, the entire K-1 begs to differ! ^[1]

Croatia responds! :))

  1. /quote ↩︎

92

[quote]Kardash wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
if youre dutch,stick to tulips gardening & leave the fighting stuff to us ;))[/quote]

Hehe, the entire K-1 begs to differ! ^[1]

Mr.Hoost gets to taste Croatian power :))))

  1. /quote ↩︎

93

I’m just hopping in the thread btw, have decent combat experience (streetwise and boxing + Krav Maga). All I can say is that it’s the psychological factor that will decide the win.

I love stuff like grappling, but - for me personally - it doesn’t give the same psychological benefit as you would have if you would do sport in which you have to stand toe-to-toe with someone who wants to chop your head off.

Also, I wouldn’t really advice taking it to the ground on a streetfight, because it makes you lose sight, pins you down, and possibility of glass etc (especially at places with lots of alcohol)

Of course it depends on what kind of MMA you do btw. Here in Holland it’s mostly strike-orientated (because of the disproportional popularity of Muay Thai here), but I do hear stories from other countries where it’s mostly grappling.

My tip: pick up boxing or MT to build a good striking base (both active and passive = recieving) and spice it up with some grappling and/or tactical self-defence (i.e. Krav Maga).

PS: I got no idea where the fuck this thread is about lol.

94

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Mr.Hoost gets to taste Croatian power :))))[/quote]

Haha, that’s a very ehm… selective selection of vids from Croatia’s side:D. Oh btw, last time I was at my gym Melvin Manhoeff walked up the stairs while I was going down them - but it was only enough room for 1 guy lol.

I almost cried.

95

I have to admit, I want to be Cro Cop when I grow up.

Edit to add: the pre-UFC, “left leg hospital, right leg morgue” cro-cop.

96

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I have to admit, I want to be Cro Cop when I grow up.

Edit to add: the pre-UFC, “left leg hospital, right leg morgue” cro-cop.[/quote]

A Counter-Terrorism Force, K-1 level kickboxer, Number 2 in the world MMA, parlimant member? The guy is going to cure cancer next.

He is a real life version of Harrison Ford from the Air Force One movie.

I’ll be rooting for you.

Regards,

Robert A

97

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
The thing about MMA is that its reliable.It works against some of the baddest mofos around.I would rather use something reliable and tested,than something possibly superior but not tested.

Stuff that is used to win the fights at the top of MMA works.Its good enough for me use on the street if I have too.Of course,it needs to be tacticaly applied= youre not gonna take a man down and try to make an arm lock if two of his buddies are around and your head becomes a kicking ball hahahahahaha!!! [/quote]

Hmmm, maybe I wasn’t clear with what I meant.

Combat sports like boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, etc… all pressure test their techniques and tactics against fully resisting, trained individuals. If a technique or tactic doesn’t work, they simply discard it or modify it so that it does. Many of them are also fairly old (boxing and wrestling are probably the 2 oldest martial arts) and therefore there has been a lot of time for them to refine and perfect their techniques.

Any good RMA is going to therefore utilize techniques and tactics from those combat sports (why re-invent the wheel). They will also however address aspects of interpersonal combat which are outside the realm of MMA and therefore not covered in combat sports (because it would be an unwise use of a combat sports athlete’s time to learn them). Things like weapons training, multiple assailant tactics, legal and moral aspects of violence, and verbal, postural and cerebral self defense to name a few.

There are proven methods for all of these “non sportive” aspects of combat as well that you will not learn in MMA or combat sports. [/quote]

Lets take Muay Thai as an example.
Using Muay Thai stance is not good in the streetfight,coz being that much square and upright,its easier for your oponent to take you down.So,you got to modify that.your stance must be something between wrestlers stance & Muay Thai stance with your shoulder above the knee.
So,instead of doing these sports and modifying them for the street,you simply do MMA.Its a sport in its own right.

I actually had to solve the training for streetfight puzzle myself working full time as a bouncer for a long time.I experimented with a lot of things.Last year I did lots of kickboxing,but lots of this stuff is useless or risky on the street (axe kick,backflying fist,side kick,etc.) BJJ stuff that resembles physical chess on the groung is also not useful.

You also got to prepare for some specifics of your situation.For example,what lots of people dont realize is,when working as a bouncer and you have to eject an aggressive client,is that you got to take their glass away from them before you restrain them and eject them.Its quite a skill to do so fast and without the glass shatering and somebody gets cut with it.

If you are likely to get attacked in traffic while driving a car then some stuff about raming cars,getting out of the car quickly and tacticaly,etc. needs to be emphasized.[/quote]

Right, situational and environmental adjustments need to be made in the real world, and “improvised weapons” (anything with a peaceful purpose which can also be used as a potential weapon) are a very real threat in the real world (like your example of aggressive patrons’ drink glasses).

I agree with your statement about neither a MT stance nor a wrestling stance being ideal for a real world encounter, and I also agree that an MMA stance (which really isn’t that far from a boxing stance) is a pretty practical stance. But, there are other modifications which may at times need to be made (for instance against an edged weapon) which are never taught in MMA and not something that you are going to ever encounter training MMA (because weapons are against the rules).

Sure, you might just get lucky and figure it out in a real fight, but that’s a pretty big risk IMO. And, I realize that nothing is fool proof and that dealing with a weapon like a knife is an extremely dangerous situation, so obviously nothing will work 100% of the time, but there are definitely things which work at least a decent amount of time (if enough time and energy are put into developing the skills). You will never find this addressed in a sport MMA school.

Now, some MMA schools do teach both the sport side and the self defense side of things, so if you’re at such a school then that would be a different story. When I say MMA I’m strictly talking about the sport of MMA (and all of the techniques, tactics, and situations that occur withing it). If you are looking at MMA as simply a mix of arts, then it could also include things like weapons, multiples, etc… But personally I refer to arts primarily concerned with self defense as RMA’s.

98

Mwah… read my original post. He should pick up boxing or MT first, get a good striking base both passively (taking a hit) and actively. After that: add what you want. But imo your base should be striking if you want to prepare for a streetfight. Grappling and RMAs( as someone called them) are just the cherry on the pie.

It doesn’t say a lot, I know, but I have never seen a brawl in which I saw a grappler or wrestler win from a hip-swinging chin-on-chest striker. It’s crucial, and should be practised more often than the other techniques.

But I’m just a biased cunt.

99

[quote]Kardash wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Mr.Hoost gets to taste Croatian power :))))[/quote]

Haha, that’s a very ehm… selective selection of vids from Croatia’s side:D. Oh btw, last time I was at my gym Melvin Manhoeff walked up the stairs while I was going down them - but it was only enough room for 1 guy lol.

I almost cried.[/quote]

hahahaha!!! nice MM story! :)) Manhoeff is a power house!

100

[quote]Kardash wrote:
I’m just hopping in the thread btw, have decent combat experience (streetwise and boxing + Krav Maga). All I can say is that it’s the psychological factor that will decide the win.

I love stuff like grappling, but - for me personally - it doesn’t give the same psychological benefit as you would have if you would do sport in which you have to stand toe-to-toe with someone who wants to chop your head off.

Also, I wouldn’t really advice taking it to the ground on a streetfight, because it makes you lose sight, pins you down, and possibility of glass etc (especially at places with lots of alcohol)

Of course it depends on what kind of MMA you do btw. Here in Holland it’s mostly strike-orientated (because of the disproportional popularity of Muay Thai here), but I do hear stories from other countries where it’s mostly grappling.

My tip: pick up boxing or MT to build a good striking base (both active and passive = recieving) and spice it up with some grappling and/or tactical self-defence (i.e. Krav Maga).

PS: I got no idea where the fuck this thread is about lol.[/quote]

Yes,MMA from certain region gets influenced by cultural preferences.
Here in Zagreb,capitol of Croatia,lots of tough men are into BJJ,wrestling & judo,more so than striking.
In Spain,its heavy kickboxing influence.
And I knew 2 very tough bouncers from Hungary that worked the doors in Spain and they were both former kyokoshinkai karate competitors.

Bottom line is that to be able to fight you need to be proficient at both striking,clinch work and ground work.Although,on the street you dont want to go to the ground,you may end up on the ground,so you want to be there in your training before you find yourself there on the street.

I agree that psychological component is the most important in winning the fight…more important than athleticism or skills/tactics.Only by being single-focused and relentless in your intent to destroy the man in front of you,is possible to win against somebody who can and is willing to fight.