Feedback From Meat

Training Over 35 Lifter
181

On soldog’s advice, I’m jumping over here in the hopes of getting maraudermeat to help me with my squat form.

here’s a snippet from today’s worklog:

Apologies for the music; I wear earphones when I workout to drown out the stuff piped into the gym.

Now, to business: I’m obviously going forward when I’m on the way down. What I’m not sure of is why, or how to correct it. My stance (since it’s hard to tell from the video) is shoulder-width. The bar’s on my traps, about as far down as I’m comfortable having it without my shoulders hurting from my grip. I suppose I could widen my stance and grip, which might help. But since I have no idea what I’m doing, I’m not really sure how to correct it.

Also, soldog pointed out that I’m not keeping my elbows forward which, after watching the videos again, is very true. Particularly when I start my drive up. This may be due to me being told to drive out of the hole with my hips, so my hips start moving up before my shoulders do. But if you watch the 2nd video shot from the side, the bar is actually moving pretty vertically when I’m coming out of the hole. It’s the eccentric motion I seem to be screwing up.

Meat? Any advice? Feel free to ridicule me; I need it.

182

ohhh… i’m definitely going to ridicule you:) before i give you squat advice you have to promise me that you will get rid of the pussy pad and crappy belt. there’s never a good reason for a guy to use the pussy pad. man up and embrace the pain of the bar on your shoulders. that pad allows the bar to roll around. you need that bar to sink into your traps and stay there. i chalk my traps up so that bar doesn’t move at all. as for the belt, get a good powerlifting belt that is the same thickness all the way around. that thing is narrow up front and too wide in the back. i use an Inzer lever belt. it’s kickass.

okay… onto the squat.

things i see that are wrong-

-elbows drift up
-too narrow a stance
-rounded upper back
-looking into that god aweful mirror
-hips come up first
-knees roll in

how to fix
-get yourself a hat and put it on backwards so that the bill is backwards. look up until the bill touches your traps and the back of your neck is touching the bar. keep this position the entire time you squat. this will keep your chest high and keep you from rounding the upper back.
-force you elbows under the bar and force them forward as you drive out of the hole.
-take your stance out and point your toes out some. force your knees out the entire time… this is called “spreading the floor”
-who told you to raise your hips first on a squat?? not good. what they might have meant is to force the hips forward. you definitely don’t want the ass/hips to rise first. it’s always, head, followed by high chest and the rest of the body will follow. once the chest comes up, the hips then are forced forward hard by flexing the ass. a perfect squat keeps the bar over the hips the entire time. you don’t want the ass/hips to come up first because then the weight would be in front of your hips.

just getting rid of that pussy pad will do wonders for your form and testosterone levels:)

183

Thanks for the feedback, meat! I’m definitely going to try without the pad next week. I’ll also try the hat tip. Hell, I can’t look any goofier than I already do! :slight_smile:

As for the belt, I really had no idea what to buy, so I just grabbed what I saw on the shelf. They all looked the same except for back width. Now I know better. :slight_smile: What’s a good width for a powerlifting belt?

I don’t remember who told me about hips going up first, but if I ever remember, I’ll donkeypunch them.

I’ll try all of this, and see if I can video it again. Hopefully, there’ll be some improvement.

Perhaps I’ll use my off day next week to go in and do some practice with just the bar, or some really light weight.

I can’t do much about the mirror though. That’s our only power rack, and it’s right up against it.

184

I went ahead and ordered a 10mm lever belt from Inzer. I doubt it’ll be here before Friday, but it’ll be here eventually. Didn’t have to worry about width, since Inzer only makes one width in the lever belt. :slight_smile:

185

[quote]mcl wrote:
I went ahead and ordered a 10mm lever belt from Inzer. I doubt it’ll be here before Friday, but it’ll be here eventually. Didn’t have to worry about width, since Inzer only makes one width in the lever belt. :slight_smile:
[/quote]

good man.

186

Meat,

Just wanted to thank you for your training advice. I just set PRs in dead, squat, and bench. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me.

187

[quote]mathineer wrote:
Meat,

Just wanted to thank you for your training advice. I just set PRs in dead, squat, and bench. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me.[/quote]

no problem at all. i’m really happy for you.

188

Meat -
Today was squat day (would have been tomorrow, but the gym’s closed tomorrow for the holiday). I made it a point to work on my form, trying to incorporate your feedback.

I forgot my hat! No worries; I found a point on the ceiling and focused on it.

So, first, my complaints: I REALLY felt it in my wrists, shoulders(!), lower back, and inner thigh. It’s weird, because 135 felt a lot like 275 in terms of the effort required to get down and up. Also, it wasn’t until the last set of my Boring But Big work that I figured out breathing with the adjusted form. Until then, I was pretty much gasping for air. Also, without looking in the mirror, I had a really hard time judging my depth.

Now, what I liked: Not looking in the mirror let me FEEL the lift much more, and really feel what my body was doing, and where my balance was. I could feel when I wasn’t over my hips with the bar. I could feel more subtle shifts of weight forward.

Here’s 2 reps from my warmup, with 135:

Here’s 3 at 245:

And 3 at 275:

I’m still coming forward on the way down, but I don’t think it’s as much as I was. I’m also still not quite hitting parallel, but I think I’ll get there. I need to learn to feel where I am with depth, and I’m going to keep recording the lifts so I can correlate where I actually am with how the lift feels, so I can connect the feeling with the position.

My stance was a bit over 2 feet wide (each foot was 4-6" from the rack), and I made it a point to point my toes out and attempted to make sure my knees were driving out. It was hard focusing on my knees, keeping the bar above my hips, worrying about depth, breathing, and driving out with my head and elbows. It’s just going to take some getting used to.

You’ll be happy to know I got rid of the pussy pad – not sure you can tell in the video. :slight_smile:

Questions:
I noticed that I felt more comfortable with a MUCH wider grip on the bar than I was using. Is this because the bar’s sitting lower? I mean, if I gripped the bar where I used to (little finger on the smooth band), the bar was sitting way too high…practically where it was with the pad. With a wider grip, I was able to get it down further.

I always feel like I’m sitting back when I go down, but instead it looks like I’m just shoving my butt out there and then overcompensating in the other direction with my upper body. Is there something I can work on to correct this, besides box squats? (Not trying to avoid the box squats; just wondering if there’s something else I could be doing as well).

Thanks again!

189

Meat-

You see any issues with benching twice a week? I have my ‘bench’ day, usually bench, inc. db presses, and triceps work. Bench has been following the 5/3/1 template, and the db work is usually in the 6-8 range.

I want to add another bench session, probably on shoulder day since I’ll already have my tri’s warmed up. Any suggestions? Keep it higher rep? Speed work?

I guess I’m going to have a ‘heavy’ day and a ‘light’ day, but not sure how to approach it. I imagine after a shoulder session I’m not going to have as much intensity so that will probably dictate lighter weight.

Sorry, kinda talking this through as I’m typing. Any thoughts?

THANKS!

190

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Meat-

You see any issues with benching twice a week? I have my ‘bench’ day, usually bench, inc. db presses, and triceps work. Bench has been following the 5/3/1 template, and the db work is usually in the 6-8 range.

I want to add another bench session, probably on shoulder day since I’ll already have my tri’s warmed up. Any suggestions? Keep it higher rep? Speed work?

I guess I’m going to have a ‘heavy’ day and a ‘light’ day, but not sure how to approach it. I imagine after a shoulder session I’m not going to have as much intensity so that will probably dictate lighter weight.

Sorry, kinda talking this through as I’m typing. Any thoughts?

THANKS![/quote]

i’ve NEVER had any luck with hitting a movement more than once a week. you could do what i do- i rotate speed work in every other week for my second bench variation. More is definitely not better when it comes to getting stronger and bigger. Recovery is the key to growth. throwing more volume at a problem isn’t the answer, IMO. If you are having issues with bench, i would first determine the why and then attack it.

what is it about your bench that you want to change? what weaknesses do you feel you have?

191

[quote]mcl wrote:
Meat -
Today was squat day (would have been tomorrow, but the gym’s closed tomorrow for the holiday). I made it a point to work on my form, trying to incorporate your feedback.

I forgot my hat! No worries; I found a point on the ceiling and focused on it.

So, first, my complaints: I REALLY felt it in my wrists, shoulders(!), lower back, and inner thigh. It’s weird, because 135 felt a lot like 275 in terms of the effort required to get down and up. Also, it wasn’t until the last set of my Boring But Big work that I figured out breathing with the adjusted form. Until then, I was pretty much gasping for air. Also, without looking in the mirror, I had a really hard time judging my depth.

Now, what I liked: Not looking in the mirror let me FEEL the lift much more, and really feel what my body was doing, and where my balance was. I could feel when I wasn’t over my hips with the bar. I could feel more subtle shifts of weight forward.

Here’s 2 reps from my warmup, with 135:

Here’s 3 at 245:

And 3 at 275:

I’m still coming forward on the way down, but I don’t think it’s as much as I was. I’m also still not quite hitting parallel, but I think I’ll get there. I need to learn to feel where I am with depth, and I’m going to keep recording the lifts so I can correlate where I actually am with how the lift feels, so I can connect the feeling with the position.

My stance was a bit over 2 feet wide (each foot was 4-6" from the rack), and I made it a point to point my toes out and attempted to make sure my knees were driving out. It was hard focusing on my knees, keeping the bar above my hips, worrying about depth, breathing, and driving out with my head and elbows. It’s just going to take some getting used to.

You’ll be happy to know I got rid of the pussy pad – not sure you can tell in the video. :slight_smile:

Questions:
I noticed that I felt more comfortable with a MUCH wider grip on the bar than I was using. Is this because the bar’s sitting lower? I mean, if I gripped the bar where I used to (little finger on the smooth band), the bar was sitting way too high…practically where it was with the pad. With a wider grip, I was able to get it down further.

I always feel like I’m sitting back when I go down, but instead it looks like I’m just shoving my butt out there and then overcompensating in the other direction with my upper body. Is there something I can work on to correct this, besides box squats? (Not trying to avoid the box squats; just wondering if there’s something else I could be doing as well).

Thanks again!
[/quote]

i’m very impressed with what you’ve done with your squat thus far. i know it’s a lot to remember but after you’ve done it a couple hundred times, you’ll get it:)

it’s a totally new form for you, so all those areas are going to hurt and feel fatigued. it’s going to feel awkward for awhile, but trust me, in the long run you will be stronger and protect yourself from injury.

the pain in the wrists and shoulders will diminish some over time. i would suggest using a thumbless grip. that will take some of the stress off the wrists. also, you can get a pair of elbow sleeves. i use them on all my sets from 135 and up. you can definitely play around with hand placement, but you want those elbows to be under the bar. the wider you go the less control you have over the bar and you will not be tight in the bottom.

i would suggest doing squats from the bottom up off pins set at parallel. this will benefit you in many ways. it will teach you where parallel is. it will teach you to stay tight in the bottom and build that hip strength you need in the hole. i recently started doing front squats from the bottom against bands. these are the shit. it makes a regular squat seem like cheating. when you are starting from the bottom, take mental notes of what position you are in. are your elbows grazing your thighs? does your belt cut in somewhere? these are the cues that will tell you you’ve hit parallel.

as far as sitting back goes, i don’t do it. sitting back is for geared lifters. they sit back into there gear to build resistance in the gear. you don’t have that. but what you do have is then tension you can build in your hips by pushing your knees out hard on the way down. so as you squat down, just think about pushing out on your knees, not sitting back. people read about sitting back when they box squat. that’s great for geared lifters but for raw lifters, it will only fuck up your squat form. bottom line- squat down and up, like a piston. knees forced out on the way down and then push really hard against them on the way up while forcing the elbows forward.

keep up the good work and keep videoing you progress.

192

Oh thank God! Now I can quit trying to sit back. Can I use my quads more the way my body seems to want to? I’ve been missing this pointer for two years and had begun to think recently on just the point you made about gear.

193

[quote]DaCharmingAlbino wrote:

maraudermeat said:
as far as sitting back goes, i don’t do it. sitting back is for geared lifters. they sit back into there gear to build resistance in the gear. you don’t have that. but what you do have is then tension you can build in your hips by pushing your knees out hard on the way down. so as you squat down, just think about pushing out on your knees, not sitting back. people read about sitting back when they box squat. that’s great for geared lifters but for raw lifters, it will only fuck up your squat form. bottom line- squat down and up, like a piston. knees forced out on the way down and then push really hard against them on the way up while forcing the elbows forward.

Oh thank God! Now I can quit trying to sit back. Can I use my quads more the way my body seems to want to? I’ve been missing this pointer for two years and had begun to think recently on just the point you made about gear.[/quote]

definitely!! sitting back without gear puts the weight in front of you from the start. this is especially true of those with long legs…like you. just concentrate on pushing out hard on the knees. doing so will place the stress on the outer thighs/hips.

194

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

what is it about your bench that you want to change? what weaknesses do you feel you have?

[/quote]

warning, long response…

Well, I’d like to swap out the weights I’m using for about 2x more right now-- I think my weakness is weakness. :wink:

Seriously, I think it can all improve. If I had to guess, I’d say my triceps are the weak point.

Right now I have my bench day, which is really just chest/triceps when you look at the log, shoulder day, and the occasional ‘arm’ day depending on when I took off, schedule etc. (usually I throw that in there if I had a back day and want another day between deadlift and squats).

I feel like I’m recovered from benching after a few days. I know it wouldn’t be wise to go heavy twice a week, or even every week (hence 5/3/1), but it seems like I could do more accessory work later in the week, like close grips, lockouts, floor presses etc.

I just never seem to have the gas to bench (say flat bench, then incl. db presses), and have much left to do significant close-grips.

On my shoulder days, my triceps have a lot more gas (although shoulders are fried). I’ve been just doing high rep benches (only 135, 155 or so) at the end on these days, mostly to keep my shoulder loose and to work on form.

I just feel like I could be doing more for my bench/tricep strength that the one bench day. I know some ‘templates’ like Madcow 5x5 et al. have you benching 3x per week, with different weight/rep schemes. I know that that is too much right now (unless I switched to working out 3x per week doing that program, which I’m not going to do).

The only thing I really try to do with my ‘split’ is to keep bench/shoulders and squat/deadlift as far apart as possible, so I was thinking just modifying what I’ve been doing a little:

Deadlift/hams
Bench/Tri
Back (or Back/Bi)
Off/cardio (or, arms depending on what I did on back and bench day)
Squat/quads
Shoulders (minor bench/accessory)
Off/cardio

I play it by ear or how I feel and throw in an off day really anywhere, but you get the idea.

195

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

i’m very impressed with what you’ve done with your squat thus far. i know it’s a lot to remember but after you’ve done it a couple hundred times, you’ll get it:)

it’s a totally new form for you, so all those areas are going to hurt and feel fatigued. it’s going to feel awkward for awhile, but trust me, in the long run you will be stronger and protect yourself from injury.

the pain in the wrists and shoulders will diminish some over time. i would suggest using a thumbless grip. that will take some of the stress off the wrists. also, you can get a pair of elbow sleeves. i use them on all my sets from 135 and up. you can definitely play around with hand placement, but you want those elbows to be under the bar. the wider you go the less control you have over the bar and you will not be tight in the bottom.

i would suggest doing squats from the bottom up off pins set at parallel. this will benefit you in many ways. it will teach you where parallel is. it will teach you to stay tight in the bottom and build that hip strength you need in the hole. i recently started doing front squats from the bottom against bands. these are the shit. it makes a regular squat seem like cheating. when you are starting from the bottom, take mental notes of what position you are in. are your elbows grazing your thighs? does your belt cut in somewhere? these are the cues that will tell you you’ve hit parallel.

as far as sitting back goes, i don’t do it. sitting back is for geared lifters. they sit back into there gear to build resistance in the gear. you don’t have that. but what you do have is then tension you can build in your hips by pushing your knees out hard on the way down. so as you squat down, just think about pushing out on your knees, not sitting back. people read about sitting back when they box squat. that’s great for geared lifters but for raw lifters, it will only fuck up your squat form. bottom line- squat down and up, like a piston. knees forced out on the way down and then push really hard against them on the way up while forcing the elbows forward.

keep up the good work and keep videoing you progress.

[/quote]

Thanks Meat! I actually do use a thumbless grip. Always have. I think I need to do some wrist flexibility work; they’ve never been happy bent like that. I had to do some when I started doing military presses, too.

Thank God I don’t have to try to sit back any more! That was always a huge concern when I squat. Now I can focus on keeping the weight over my hips instead.

Thankfully, the pins where I’ve got them now are just a little below shoulder height for me. I’ve done lifts from them before for exactly the purpose of feeling what parallel was, but not with this new (to me) form. I’ll give them a shot. Of course, I still have to work on getting lower as the weight gets heavier, because I think I – like a lot of other people – don’t go as deep as the poundage increases.

My Inzer lever belt came Friday, so next week’s squats will be my first chance to use it. I’ll pay attention to how it feels at parallel so I can use it as a cue, too.

196

Hi Meat, first off - what a f… great resource you are!

I don’t really have any specific questions, but rather wanted to ask if you could just give me some general feedback on my form in the big three. I just did max-attempts this week, and was very pleased with my progress. I’m doing 5/3/1 (isn’t everyone?) and just finished my second cycle (two months):

Squat: up 20kg/45lbs
Bench: up ~0kg
Deadlift: up 15kg/33lbs

Squat 1RM attempt

I’m aware that my elbows flare backwards, but is there anything else I should work on?

Bench 1RM attempt

Deadlift

My hips rise a little fast - anything else?

Thanks very much for your time.

197

Dear Meat,

I’m doing the 5/3/1 and I feel confident that my squat and deadlift days okay.

Deadlift, assistance is RDL and shrugs. Would it be too much if I do 3 sets of light deficits instead of the shrugs? I’ve never had a problem locking out, if I can move the bar I will get it.

On bench and military press days I have done two upper back movements and another movement to directly support the bench and then military. Upper back and shoulders have always been my weak points.

Is it too much?

198

What ever happened to giving the guy the belt? I may have missed the outcome. Have a great week and thanks for all the info.

199

Finally got my hands on the Inzer belt I bought (it was delivered Friday, but I couldn’t actually open it until this morning). Damn, this thing’s quality! Got it assembled and I’m very impressed. Can’t wait to use it!

200

[quote]Mr.Melin wrote:
Hi Meat, first off - what a f… great resource you are!

I don’t really have any specific questions, but rather wanted to ask if you could just give me some general feedback on my form in the big three. I just did max-attempts this week, and was very pleased with my progress. I’m doing 5/3/1 (isn’t everyone?) and just finished my second cycle (two months):

Squat: up 20kg/45lbs
Bench: up ~0kg
Deadlift: up 15kg/33lbs

Squat 1RM attempt

I’m aware that my elbows flare backwards, but is there anything else I should work on?

Bench 1RM attempt

Deadlift

My hips rise a little fast - anything else?

Thanks very much for your time. [/quote]

all in all, form looks pretty good on all the lifts.

squat- definitely keep working to get the elbows under the bar. right now the weight is in front of you some and this will greatly hinder your progress with heavier weights. really force your neck back into the bar to emaphasize keeping your chest high. i can’t tell from the angle but a wider stance, pointing the toes out more and really forcing the knees out the entire time. the big thing is the elbows though.

bench- i like your bar path and that you keep the elbows tucked until you lockout. i think you could get a much tighter arch with feet further back though. with your long arms you really need to shorten the ROM more. get those heels farther back. you are getting into position too easy. that tells me that you aren’t nearly tight enough. make your lower back cramp.

deadlift-looks very good. i don’t think your hips are rising fast. i do think that you are delaying getting your hips through though. the bar is over half way up your thighs before you start pushing the hips forward. start that shit once it reaches your knees. that looked like a near max attempt so it won’t be a forceful lockout but definetly get it through faster.

like i said, all in all, pretty damn good.