Fasted state cardio?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

Im sure that this has been discussed before and assumed general knowledge, sorry to bring it up again, but i cant seem to peice together all the small bits of information together.

I was allways told to do cardio early in the morning prior to your first meal in order to burn the most fat, due to low blood sugar.

But recently i was reading that such a practice would be catabolic. Ive also seen it suggested that its best to start the day with a P+F meal, then cardio in order to keep blood sugar low…

Can someone explain all this to me? =)

2

Cardio any time of the day will burn calories, which is beneficial for anyone, however, when is the best for burning fat? The morning! When you do cardio later in the day, you are most likely burning calories, mostly carbs, that you ingested that day. In the morning, you have fasted for most likely 8 hours or so, which forces your body to use stored fat for energy expenditure, because glucose is not readily available. Otherwise, stored fat is very hard to dip into for energy. The key? Just make sure to keep yourself hydrated…because you are usually dehydrated in the morning. I usually feel better during the day if I do my cardio in the morning, which is another benefit…it gives you and your metabolism a jump start!

3

I think morning HIIT after a small meal is the best approach to fat loss. Really long duration should really never be done to excess. Anyone who thinks they can gain muscle while doing long duration cardio every single damn day needs a reality check. If you’re going to do some moderate intensity cardio, do it after you train for maybe 30 minutes tops.

Of course the rules change if you’re ‘enhanced’.

Morning HIIT/evening MI cardio has many more benefits than morning MI cardio/evening HIIT.

4

Then again, I also think people abuse cardio way too much. You don’t need to do nearly as much as many do and suggest to lose fat. Too much cardio can actually prevent you from losing fat.

5

I can attest to that, Thunder.

There was a time when I was doing
MI - HI cardio for an hour before breakfast, then resistance training for an hour to an hour and a half at night Mon - Fri. Then on the weekends I would do almost two hours of cardio each day and then go hike or roller blade for another few hours.

…an oh, how my physique suffered.

6

If you are hypocaloric I just think its calories out versus calories in. Doesnt matter if you do it in the morning, in the evening or every fullmoon dressed up as a banana.

7

Generally speaking yeah, it is calories in vs. calories out. However, that is a tad simplistic. By that arguement, there would be absolutely no benefit to MI cardio since it burns few calories relative to HIIT.

As well, if it is just an in vs. out issue, then why do any cardio? Why not just eat less? In the end you could create the same caloric deficit either through exercise or diet.

8

Thanks for the replies.

I will have a play and see what i feel is most suitable for me.

If i choose to have a meal before cardio, what about having a P+F meal before the cardio? Will cardio utilise any fat floating around in the blood? Or is it ‘ignored’?

9

You’re body will not use fat ingested from a P+F meal if you’re doing cardio right after the meal. It takes time for that fat to reach the bloodstream sometimes 2 hours or more. Also it’s not quite as simple as calories in and out, where these calories come from is a big deal too. Burning carbs (sugar) and burning fat makes a big difference in your physique. Now you can also do cardio later in the day, burn the carbs off and then eat P+F and veggie meals for the rest of the day. If you don’t refill glycogen stores then you may burn close to the same amount of fat the remainder of the the day and while you sleep.

10

I don’t think FS cardio is all that bad as long as the intensity isn’t through the roof. Thirty minutes at about 65-70% MHR on an empty stomach is perfectly fine.

If you’re particularly paranoid about catabolism, you could supplement with BCAAs before and after. When you’ve completed the session, pack up your belongings and head home to a P+F meal. Of course, this depends upon your goals, etc.

11

Beatnik, losing muscle is a common concern when it comes to doing FS cardio. And the potential for muscle loss is there, especially if it’s done at higher intensity levels.

As you said, after an overnight fast glycogen, blood glucose and insulin levels are all low, an optimal environment for burning fat. On the other hand, it is potentially an optimal environment for burning muscle because carbohydrate fuel sources are low (to non-existent) and cortisol levels are high. But there are ways to minimize/prevent muscle loss.

As long as you don’t overdo it, you don’t need to worry too much about losing muscle. It’s a fact that muscle proteins are broken down and used for energy during cardio. But you are constantly breaking down and re-building muscle tissue anyway. Protein turnover is a daily fact of life. The goal is to tip the scales slightly in favor of increasing the anabolic side of things and reducing the catabolic side just enough so you stay anabolic, which results in your gaining or at least maintaining muscle.

How do you do that? First, limit FS cardio sessions to 30-45 minutes in length. Kept to 30-45 minutes, it is highly unlikely that amino acids will be burned as fuel. Additionally, the caffeine found in a strong cup of coffee will help mobilize fatty acids, resulting in the body burning more fat and less glycogen. If you can spare glycogen, you’ll ultimately spare protein too. An alternative to coffee would be an ECA stack.

Second, as Chris Merrow said, keep the intensity down to 60-75% of your MHR. Save higher intensity cardio for HIIT, which should never be done FS.

Third, make sure you have your diet dialed in. Too extreme a caloric deficit plus too much cardio is a formula for disaster, one that results in loss of LBM.

Losing muscle probably has more to do with inadequate nutrition than with excessive cardio. Adequate meal frequency, sufficient protein, carbs and total calories all stack the deck in your favor, making it less likely that there will be a net loss of muscle tissue over any given 24-hour period.

Fourth and finally, keep training with heavy weights, even while cutting.

There are benefits to longer-duration, low- to moderate-intesity FS cardio and HIIT, both. Optimally, you would be doing some of both. If you prefer to have a protein shake before doing your cardio, you could then do HIIT if you were so inclined.

12

Pardon me Beatnik,
May I have this dance?
Thunder, TT, why is doing cardio before lifting so frowned upon around here? I prefer doing a 1/2 hour cardio before weights for 2 reasons: I will not do it otherwise, I’m warm and ready to go after. I follow this with 2 back to back compound exercises for the next 1/2 hour, varying reps from 4 to 10 dependeing on the day. Admittedly my physique is nothing to post home about, but by training this way, I do train.
Tank you,
Kyle

13

KFall-

If training in the manner you described floats your boat, then so be it. But if your physique is “nothing to write home about”, let me give you a couple of reasons why you probably shouldn’t be training this way.

The first thing that comes to mind is that by doing 30 minutes of cardio before you hit the weights, you are depleting your glycogen stores. This is your body’s preferred energy source for fuelling anaerobic activity. Without it, you’ll probably find that you experience minimal strength/size gains.

Another reason would be injury prevention. Which mode of exercise do you think you’d be more likely to experience a muscle tear in: cardio or weight-training? By performing a 30-minute bout of cardio (under the assumption that you’re training above 70% of your MHR), you’d be training for strength in a “weakened” state - physically and mentally.

If performing your cardio before you hit the weights is the only way you’re “able” to do it, why not just separate the two and perform them on alternating days of the week?

14

Kyle, it’s an excellent idea to do about 5 minutes of cardio prior to lifting. It raises core temperature. It gets the heart going and blood to the muscles you’ll be working. I’d encourage you to continue to warming up prior to lifting.

However, te reason for not doing a full-blown cardio session is that a longer session is going to use up available blood glucose and reduce liver glycogen levels at the very least. Liver glycogen, of course, is responsible for maintaining constant blood sugar levels. Your cardio session can also, potentially, use up muscle glycogen. Using up blood glucose and liver glycogen creates a catabolic environment. Now you start to lift. Cortisol levels rise more quickly than they would have because of the depleted blood glucose and liver glycogen. Cortisol, of course, is responsible for breaking down amino acids (i.e., muscle) so that they can be converted to glucose (gluconeogenesis) to provide the brain with the glucose it requires.

So not only did you create a catabolic environment, but performance/lifts are likely to suffer as well.

15

[quote]
Losing muscle probably has more to do with inadequate nutrition than with excessive cardio. [/quote]

Absolutely and unequivocable incorrect.

It is not low calories or too much cardio that is the problem. It is the caloric DEFICIT that is created by EITHER too low of a caloric intake OR too much cardio.

I challenge anyone to hit very low bodyfat levels WITHOUT losing muscle with this idea. I also challenge anyone to try and maintain leg size with 45 minutes of ANY type of cardio seven days per week.

After having worked with countless (actually I auppose I could count) competitive bodybuilders for years now, and thus being responsible for getting them to competitive levels of bodyfat, I can say this with the utmost confidence that, while sounding nice and peachy in theory this is absolutely untrue in the real world.

Even with myself who’s legs actually grow well, this is untrue. If someone who is arguably a little gifted in the leg department cannot hold leg size if doing too much cardio, then your genetically average legs certainly will not.

You have professional bodybuilders, who are the genetically elite and who are using very significant amounts of drugs while dieting who cannot maintain all their muscle, let alone gain LBM. Why is this? And yet, with this amount of cardio, it’s expected for the genetically average/natural trainee to not lose size?

16

ok - so I’m trying to put all these bits together …

** I train first thing in the morning
** I lift heavy - use compound movements and major muscle groups to maintain LBM.
** Lifting is for 45-60 mins max
** Then I do Cardio for 30-40 mins

-± How do I put the nutrition around this plan to maintain LBM while dropping a little fat? -±

Questions:

    1. Do I use any Carbs while training?
    1. Perhaps the 60 mins lifting and the 40 mins Cardio is too much and I should limit it.
    1. Should I just use whey protein and ignore the carbs completely therefore letting prtein be used as glycogen?
    1. Should I use an ECA stack straight after the weights and before cardio and hope it will kick in mid cardio?
    1. Should I avoid all Carbs post training to allow the fat to be used?
    1. Should I use upper and lower body cardio (if there is such a thing) like rowing to maximise the cardio effects.
    1. How long after Cardio shoudl one wait to consume Carbs and therefore switch off the fat burning?
17

no23

It would be great if anyone could honestly answer your questions on this forumn.

The problem is that all the questions you have asked are very individual to the way each person reacts to different stimulus.

The best thing you could possibly do is experiment and see how each works for you.

If you are still interested, just ask, and I as well as many others can tell you what works for them and their personal preference, but you are going to get some varied response that will end up with the answers being as clear as mud.

Phill

18

no23, my thoughts are that it would be better to separate your lifting and cardio. You need to keep your time in the gym to an hour to an hour and fifteen minutes max. The benefits would be that you would get two metabolic kicks at less of a catabolic price.

Phil is right that what you’re asking is highly individual and you need to experiment. As an approach, I tend to go pretty low carbs during the day and take the majority of my carbs in PWO.

Re carbs PWO, I feel they’re important. I found John Berardi article on “Solving the Post Workout Puzzle” to be compelling. But there are people who use a ketogenic approach to dieting, with little to no carbs PWO.

When I’m taking it, I like to take my ECA stack in the morning before my cardio and about 5:00 pm, which is 2 or 3 hours before I lift (if I lift). Some people need to take it earlier, otherwise they have problems getting to sleep. As far as timing, just settle into taking it twice a day, but not so late that you have trouble getting to sleep.

Upper and lower body cardio? Nahhh. Don’t worry 'bout it, no23. Cardio is cardio. Use your favorite piece of equipment. It’s more about getting your heart rate up.

Don’t worry about turning fat burning on or off. The body will take care of it all by itself if you’re meeting your protein requirements, eating 6 or more meals a day and are slightly hypocaloric (below maintenance).