Explaining Year-Round Lean Doesn't Lead to Size

Training Bodybuilding
221

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:

Prof X’s dogma

[/quote]

I would be very interested in what you specifically think that is…because I haven’t ever told someone with a solid base of size to gain 40+lbs for no reason [/quote]

Bug didn’t say you ever said that. The word he wrote after you quoted him said that gaining of 40+ lbs was GOOD for someone who HADN’T built that base yet. He said your strategy of putting on as much muscle as possible (and not let a little fat accumulation deter you from that goal) is good for those still building that “solid base”, not those who already have it.[/quote]

Dude, I ask HIM that for a reason. Notice I went back and responded to HIM and not any of the people after him. I know what he wrote. I also know what I am reading from others.

What better way to squash the nonsense totally than to speak to someone who can carry on a discussion unlike many others lately?

222

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
As an additional question that does strike at what people on this thread are discussing: does anyone here actually know anyone who ate mostly clean foods (i.e., the usual bodybuilder competition-mode foods: chicken breasts, rice, potatoes, whey, blahblahblah), trained very hard, and still ended up getting “fat”?

I’m of course not saying that it’s impossible, but I just don’t know of anyone who ate a ton of what are typically labeled “clean” foods and didn’t ultimately have impressive results from it. I remember Accipiter had a pretty sloppy bulk like a year ago, but he also dirtied that bulk up quite a bit.[/quote]

I believe Artem gained a lot of weight on a dirty bulk/not clean bulk… Was applauded by people such as X who seem to no matter what they say - push this approach. Then when we all saw the pictures of the guy, was very evident it hadn’t worked for him. Granted he probably didn’t lift with the intensity needed but still. If he was eating cleanly the whole mess would of been avoided and he could of addressed it. I don’t doubt that his constant encouragement from people here spurred him on to continue.

Stuff like that is strange to me to be honest. A member here the other day refused to help me any further with my questions because on my old account that I haven’t used since I was in my late teens on which I had posted lots of dumb shit. Having said that I went away and gained 40lbs and lost fat to boot. With a diet consisting of clean foods and the only food I ate which probably wouldn’t be advised by someone eating a clean diet or a cutting diet for the perma-bulkers here would have been milk, bagels and buns that I used for burger night - mhmm burger night.
I’d also like to add here that I didn’t clean bulk because I was scared of getting fat, quite the opposite. I didn’t care one way or the other - eating crap just doesn’t seem the thing to do to me and it just turned out that I didn’t add shit loads of fat.

What I’m saying is, encouragement doesn’t really seem to go to the right people on this board a lot of the time and people misplace their own opinions as fact and anything else is just wrong right?

My attitude now is get incredible then show them they were wrong. Which is why I don’t post much on this account - still working on it!

223

I see I’ve created a monster here :slight_smile: Apparently people DO like talking about the same subjects multiple times…jk, but seriously, it’s true.

224

[quote]Mr_White wrote:
My attitude now is get incredible then show them they were wrong. Which is why I don’t post much on this account - still working on it!

[/quote]

Goot attitude, Walt.
Doesn’t apply to bb, only, but to life and competition in general: in sports, in academia and in the business.

Shock and awe, works everytime.

225

INterested in the big boys and competitors thoughts on commandments ?'s. I like good discussion as long as they stay civil and for once one of these things is actually doing well.

226

[quote]Mr_White wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
As an additional question that does strike at what people on this thread are discussing: does anyone here actually know anyone who ate mostly clean foods (i.e., the usual bodybuilder competition-mode foods: chicken breasts, rice, potatoes, whey, blahblahblah), trained very hard, and still ended up getting “fat”?

I’m of course not saying that it’s impossible, but I just don’t know of anyone who ate a ton of what are typically labeled “clean” foods and didn’t ultimately have impressive results from it. I remember Accipiter had a pretty sloppy bulk like a year ago, but he also dirtied that bulk up quite a bit.[/quote]

I believe Artem gained a lot of weight on a dirty bulk/not clean bulk… Was applauded by people such as X who seem to no matter what they say - push this approach. Then when we all saw the pictures of the guy, was very evident it hadn’t worked for him. Granted he probably didn’t lift with the intensity needed but still. If he was eating cleanly the whole mess would of been avoided and he could of addressed it. I don’t doubt that his constant encouragement from people here spurred him on to continue.

Stuff like that is strange to me to be honest. A member here the other day refused to help me any further with my questions because on my old account that I haven’t used since I was in my late teens on which I had posted lots of dumb shit. Having said that I went away and gained 40lbs and lost fat to boot. With a diet consisting of clean foods and the only food I ate which probably wouldn’t be advised by someone eating a clean diet or a cutting diet for the perma-bulkers here would have been milk, bagels and buns that I used for burger night - mhmm burger night.
I’d also like to add here that I didn’t clean bulk because I was scared of getting fat, quite the opposite. I didn’t care one way or the other - eating crap just doesn’t seem the thing to do to me and it just turned out that I didn’t add shit loads of fat.

What I’m saying is, encouragement doesn’t really seem to go to the right people on this board a lot of the time and people misplace their own opinions as fact and anything else is just wrong right?

My attitude now is get incredible then show them they were wrong. Which is why I don’t post much on this account - still working on it!

[/quote]

You never saw me applaud Artem. I hardly even responded to that AT ALL aside from typing out he had taken it too far once someone made a thread about him.

What is strange is the constant stream of bs about what I am supposedly posting here when none of those posts exist.

227

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
Here’s a sort of related question about mass gain as it relates to bodybuilding:

For powerlifters, one of the biggest things people recommend is just signing up for a meet.

Bodybuilding is like marathon-running to me: it takes a number of years of building a base to really even compete (even if competing relatively poorly). So in a not-so-hypothetical hypothetical (i.e., my case), let’s say you have someone whose goal is to compete, but figures that it will probably take four years of putting on size and training very hard before being able to turn in a respectable performance.

With that sort of time-line in mind before doing an actual competition, what do you guys think of prospective bodybuilders doing annual (what I’ll call) “half-competitions”? What I mean by that is that each year, instead of full-on dieting down (to, say, 5% bodyfat or whatnot, which would possibly seriously detract from the overall goal of putting on mass and gaining strength), dieting down to the 8-10% range by a self-imposed “show date” or end-time. So, a trainee could do this annually for a few years, building up his (or her) base before ultimately competing.

Come to think of it, didn’t Synergy do this in years past? I feel like I’ve read something similar to that idea in his update thread from a while back.[/quote]

For a beginner-intermediate bodybuilder that is looking to compete, I don’t think it’s necessary at all to diet down beyond 8-10 percent (AT MOST) when you are making your initial gains/trying to put on enough size to look impressive on stage at an extremely lean weight.

Unfortunately, too many guys don’t put in that initial work that comes with building both a size and strength base and, at least in natural bodybuilding, see IMO a lot of guys on stage that could afford to spend more time trying to push their bodies to the next level of size and less time dieting down to stage weight.

I have never been an advocate of guys that are just starting out and trying to build dieting down to extremely lean levels such as the 5 percent you said. It’s counterproductive and simply doesn’t accord with the long term goals of one that desires to compete down the line.

Personally, I spent the ages of 17-21 (4 years) building a strength and size base that allowed me to diet down and compete at a pretty good size and weight in my first show. I would not have been impressive at all had I not taken advantage of these past years to focus on building size and strength and rather been focusing on keeping a super low bodyfat and keeping my abs.

228

Artem’s thread:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/blog_sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_alpha/my_first_cut?id=3073643&pageNo=0

It looks like many here were applauding him. Still looking for these magical posts where I told someone here to get fat for no reason.

I didn’t even post in that thread at all.

229

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
Here’s a sort of related question about mass gain as it relates to bodybuilding:

For powerlifters, one of the biggest things people recommend is just signing up for a meet.

Bodybuilding is like marathon-running to me: it takes a number of years of building a base to really even compete (even if competing relatively poorly). So in a not-so-hypothetical hypothetical (i.e., my case), let’s say you have someone whose goal is to compete, but figures that it will probably take four years of putting on size and training very hard before being able to turn in a respectable performance.

With that sort of time-line in mind before doing an actual competition, what do you guys think of prospective bodybuilders doing annual (what I’ll call) “half-competitions”? What I mean by that is that each year, instead of full-on dieting down (to, say, 5% bodyfat or whatnot, which would possibly seriously detract from the overall goal of putting on mass and gaining strength), dieting down to the 8-10% range by a self-imposed “show date” or end-time. So, a trainee could do this annually for a few years, building up his (or her) base before ultimately competing.

Come to think of it, didn’t Synergy do this in years past? I feel like I’ve read something similar to that idea in his update thread from a while back.[/quote]

For a beginner-intermediate bodybuilder that is looking to compete, I don’t think it’s necessary at all to diet down beyond 8-10 percent (AT MOST) when you are making your initial gains/trying to put on enough size to look impressive on stage at an extremely lean weight.

Unfortunately, too many guys don’t put in that initial work that comes with building both a size and strength base and, at least in natural bodybuilding, see IMO a lot of guys on stage that could afford to spend more time trying to push their bodies to the next level of size and less time dieting down to stage weight.

I have never been an advocate of guys that are just starting out and trying to build dieting down to extremely lean levels such as the 5 percent you said. It’s counterproductive and simply doesn’t accord with the long term goals of one that desires to compete down the line.

Personally, I spent the ages of 17-21 (4 years) building a strength and size base that allowed me to diet down and compete at a pretty good size and weight in my first show. I would not have been impressive at all had I not taken advantage of these past years to focus on building size and strength and rather been focusing on keeping a super low bodyfat and keeping my abs.

[/quote]

Great post man

230

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:

Prof X’s dogma

[/quote]

I would be very interested in what you specifically think that is…because I haven’t ever told someone with a solid base of size to gain 40+lbs for no reason [/quote]

Bug didn’t say you ever said that. The word he wrote after you quoted him said that gaining of 40+ lbs was GOOD for someone who HADN’T built that base yet. He said your strategy of putting on as much muscle as possible (and not let a little fat accumulation deter you from that goal) is good for those still building that “solid base”, not those who already have it.[/quote]

Dude, I ask HIM that for a reason. Notice I went back and responded to HIM and not any of the people after him. I know what he wrote. I also know what I am reading from others.

What better way to squash the nonsense totally than to speak to someone who can carry on a discussion unlike many others lately?[/quote]

Ok, my mistake then. I know you were having to respond to multiple people, and the way I read it, I thought maybe you misread Bug’s comment. My fault, carry on. Discussion is interesting no the less…

231

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Artem’s thread:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/blog_sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_alpha/my_first_cut?id=3073643&pageNo=0

It looks like many here were applauding him. Still looking for these magical posts where I told someone here to get fat for no reason.

I didn’t even post in that thread at all.[/quote]

My mistake. Sorry Prof I’m an idiot!

One thing I do have to say though is that because you do talk about this approach a lot, and you are a well known poster on the site. It is going to encourage people to follow that approach. It is a good approach but I think it needs to be made really damn clear that it’s not an approach for people who aren’t going to put in the hard work.

I think the mindset is more important than what someone is actually eating. If I had decided to get lean before I decided to put on size I wouldn’t be anywhere near this size. I think you need to go in to a bulk knowing you will put some amount of fat on and accept that you may not be able to see abs while doing it.

I also think it’s common sense that if you are sub 16% bodyfat you are going to have trouble putting on weight especially when your below 12% - IF you are trying to maintain those percentages.

Again I’m sorry about that, should have looked for the thread.

232

[quote]Mr_White wrote:
It is a good approach but I think it needs to be made really damn clear that it’s not an approach for people who aren’t going to put in the hard work.
[/quote]

Having read PX’s posts for some years now, I can say that I think it’s always been “pretty damn clear”. The problem is people’s reading comprehension.

And, honestly, as far as any approach to any of this, all that really, really matters is what you look like on contest day. If you’re M.O. is to “get big and fat” and you come in first place on contest day, did you do it wrong?

People are so damned uptight about what other people, anonymous people they’ve never met in real life except on an Internet forum, do with their training. It’s hilarious.

233

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

Having read PX’s posts for some years now, I can say that I think it’s always been “pretty damn clear”. The problem is people’s reading comprehension.

And, honestly, as far as any approach to any of this, all that really, really matters is what you look like on contest day. If you’re M.O. is to “get big and fat” and you come in first place on contest day, did you do it wrong?

People are so damned uptight about what other people, anonymous people they’ve never met in real life except on an Internet forum, do with their training. It’s hilarious.[/quote]

Agreed. This was my post addressing this from that thread started in 2005. That thread was over 45 pages long so anyone claiming I am stating something on this board should find it there.

I am confused as to what is unclear about the following if Mr. White could inform us.

[quote]Why would you or anyone else do it “my way”? My way was done out of necessity…out of trying to fit lifting seriously in with every other goal I had.

That is what you need to remember about the people you go to for advice. The guy who works as a personal trainer will no doubt take a different course of action in building large amounts of size than the guy going to medical/dental school. It HELPED ME to eat more to compensate for many other issues…like less sleep, several hours spent studying, spending most of time at school or in a gross anatomy lab.

Had I not taken that approach, it is very doubtful I would look anything like I do now.

My advice is usually for people who:

  1. are trying to make very large changes in how they look
  2. do not have a hard time losing body fat
  3. have trouble getting enough calories in
  4. understand what the word intensity means.
  5. Is starting well UNDER the age of 35 and isn’t some guy in his 40’s thinking he can pack on 100lbs like someone much younger and go from skinny to huge.

if this does not describe you, then you are not who I would reccommend follows any example I have put forth.

I understood in junior high that the guys who seemed to be “husky” when younger seemed to have an easier time getting “swole” once they hit high school age. I learned about the sarcoplsmic sheeth covering muscles and came to the conclusion that bulking up would help attain more muscle size in the long run by allowing more of a stretch around the muscle due to greater water retention, glycogen and even fat.

Most people who got huge have that in common. It is very rare to not see it.

Therefore, if you have good genetics for this and your goal is to make that type of progress, you will likely have to take that route at some point.

If you clearly do not have the genetics for this and gain fat easily and find it hard to lose, then obviously you shouldn’t follow this path.[/quote]

234

[quote]Professor X wrote:
5. Is starting well UNDER the age of 35 and isn’t some guy in his 40’s thinking he can pack on 100lbs like someone much younger and go from skinny to huge.
[/quote]

I don’t disagree with this. At least in the context of think in terms of pure potential for growth, optimal hormonal profile, and typical metabolism. I’m speaking from my own experience, growth (much of that due in part from using some things that you’ve written), and mistakes

However, I would add that in practice, I think while it is harder to pack on muscle for the older person that attitude, consistency, habits, understanding of one’s own body, and intelligent training and diet are better criteria. I see too many young guys who think situps and curls are all they need to get jacked. They’re lean and maybe the little girls think “lean = muscle”, but they’re not big.

Potential to get huge is definitely there, but wasted potential is… useless.

Again, I don’t wholly disagree, but I don’t think it’s absolute (like most things we do).

235

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

Having read PX’s posts for some years now, I can say that I think it’s always been “pretty damn clear”. The problem is people’s reading comprehension.

And, honestly, as far as any approach to any of this, all that really, really matters is what you look like on contest day. If you’re M.O. is to “get big and fat” and you come in first place on contest day, did you do it wrong?

People are so damned uptight about what other people, anonymous people they’ve never met in real life except on an Internet forum, do with their training. It’s hilarious.[/quote]

Agreed. This was my post addressing this from that thread started in 2005. That thread was over 45 pages long so anyone claiming I am stating something on this board should find it there.

I am confused as to what is unclear about the following if Mr. White could inform us.

[quote]Why would you or anyone else do it “my way”? My way was done out of necessity…out of trying to fit lifting seriously in with every other goal I had.

That is what you need to remember about the people you go to for advice. The guy who works as a personal trainer will no doubt take a different course of action in building large amounts of size than the guy going to medical/dental school. It HELPED ME to eat more to compensate for many other issues…like less sleep, several hours spent studying, spending most of time at school or in a gross anatomy lab.

Had I not taken that approach, it is very doubtful I would look anything like I do now.

My advice is usually for people who:

  1. are trying to make very large changes in how they look
  2. do not have a hard time losing body fat
  3. have trouble getting enough calories in
  4. understand what the word intensity means.
  5. Is starting well UNDER the age of 35 and isn’t some guy in his 40’s thinking he can pack on 100lbs like someone much younger and go from skinny to huge.

if this does not describe you, then you are not who I would reccommend follows any example I have put forth.

I understood in junior high that the guys who seemed to be “husky” when younger seemed to have an easier time getting “swole” once they hit high school age. I learned about the sarcoplsmic sheeth covering muscles and came to the conclusion that bulking up would help attain more muscle size in the long run by allowing more of a stretch around the muscle due to greater water retention, glycogen and even fat.

Most people who got huge have that in common. It is very rare to not see it.

Therefore, if you have good genetics for this and your goal is to make that type of progress, you will likely have to take that route at some point.

If you clearly do not have the genetics for this and gain fat easily and find it hard to lose, then obviously you shouldn’t follow this path.[/quote][/quote]

I don’t have any issue understanding what you are getting across, believe me I’ve taken a lot of what you say to heart and it has helped me gain a lot of weight.

All I am saying is people see you as a role model and obviously as with all people who idolize role models they will follow everything they say as the one and only truth.
Not saying you express your word as the one and only truth as you have pointed out above you expressly pointed out that you recommend it for certain situations that are similar to your own when you was in dental school.

Not everyone here will have read every post you have ever made. There are a lot of them. So that can explain some confusion some times I suppose.

I’m not getting on your case here, I’m simply trying to point out why some people may sometimes have trouble using the methods you used in the past appropriately. Note that I said some people and sometimes. You obviously have ideas why that is because your trying to project that on to me. I’m not the one who can’t gain weight properly so take that up with the others out there that can’t. Also I apologised for assuming that it was you who had pushed Artem on.

Speaking of which what happened to Artem?

236

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Having read PX’s posts for some years now, I can say that I think it’s always been “pretty damn clear”. The problem is people’s reading comprehension.

And, honestly, as far as any approach to any of this, all that really, really matters is what you look like on contest day. If you’re M.O. is to “get big and fat” and you come in first place on contest day, did you do it wrong?

People are so damned uptight about what other people, anonymous people they’ve never met in real life except on an Internet forum, do with their training. It’s hilarious.[/quote]

2 things:

  1. I believe 2 active competitors posted in this thread…so I’m not sure where all this talk about “contest day” came from

  2. Sure, get as big and fat as you want. But if you want to end up big and LEAN someday, don’t think that bulking up is expediting the process or altering your eventual endpoint.

237

Every time the same thing. Aren’t you guys bored?

238

[quote]niksamaras wrote:
Every time the same thing. Aren’t you guys bored?[/quote]

I am

239

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:
But if you want to end up big and LEAN someday, don’t think that bulking up is expediting the process or altering your eventual endpoint.
[/quote]

Wait…so any advantage seen in leverage leading to more weight being used leading to more muscle mass is now not a possibility at all?

Gee, I thought that was a big reason I did it.

Oh yeah…it was.

240

[quote]Blackaggar wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:
Every time the same thing. Aren’t you guys bored?[/quote]

I am[/quote]

It ends up being the same thing because people always seem to be discussing different things, not discussing different approaches to the same thing.