Explain Weak Elite Athletes

Bigger Stronger Leaner Beginners
41

Upper body strength is important for professional basketball because they wouldn’t test it if it wasn’t important. Power forwards and centers need upper body strength so they won’t get pushed around and so they can push other players around when they are in the low post. Since Kevin Durant isn’t a typical low post player this example shouldn’t be used to say (upper body) strength isn’t important for basketball players. Even for guards and small forwards having an upper body that is balanced terms of strength with the lower body is important. Great players like Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan and LeBron James all have chiseled upper bodies.

Just because upper body strength is important for basketball players it doesn’t mean it’s necessary to be strong to be a good player. Other qualities such as coordination and technical skills are more important than strength, especially for a finesse player like Kevin Durant. It is possible to be a skilled basketball player but not be physically dominant.

42

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Stuey wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

Maybe compared to Baron and Marbury, AI doesn’t dribble hard. But I guarantee you he’s dribbling more powerfully than any amateur player. Otherwise, it would get stolen from him often.

To prevent the ball from being stolen when you’re dribbling, you can do one of two things:
(a) dribble very low to the ground (and it takes a lot of forearm and triceps, and probably some shoulder, biceps, chest, and back strength to control the ball when it’s coming up quickly; or
(b) dribble higher but more more forcefully, which requires the same muscles. At the highest levels, they do both a and b. Obviously hand-eye coordination and general motor skills are crucial too, though.

Seriously? this is your rationalisation?

I could thunder the ball up and down but I would lose it, not because I am not stronger than these guys but because I am not as good at dribbling a basketball.

It is a skill sport, it requires speed of thought, knowledge of the game, developed motor patterns, acceleration, hand speed, quick reactions.

I’ve already acknowledged all those things. You seem to think they and strength are mutually exclusive for some unfathomable reason. Finally, if a thread is retarded, what does that make you for posting in it? :slight_smile:

No, they arent mutually exclusive.

Being “strong” and being a good basketball player are not mutually exclusive.

Being “weak” and being a good basketball player are not mutually exclusive.

Providing being “strong” = being able to lay on your back and push a bar with a lot of weight into the air.

What is so hard to understand that being strong is not an absolute needed quality of a basketball player?

It’s hard to understand because I thought so many aspects of the game required explosive strength.

Explosive leg strength, maybe.

Tell me when, during a basketball game, you would make a bench press motion applying 200lbs of force.
[/quote]
Fair enough. I think people here are understating the importance of upper body strength in basketball but I’m probably overstating it too.
As for the testing, it probably would make more sense for the NBA to test squatting and deadlifting than bench pressing.

43

Oh no… This is one of the most pointless thread ever wrote… Sorry.

In most sports, you don’t need to have a good bench to perform. Even weaker athletes can produce more power than a guy benching 150% of his bodyweight. It’s called technique. Do you really think a baseball pitcher can bench 150% of his bodyweight ? Sure not. He needs to be agile in order to transfer the weight with accuracy and precision so he can throw his ball like mad.

By the way, I don’t play basketball but I think you need more legs and core(abs,back) to jump and move around faster. I don’t see why you would need big upper body muscles.

44

[quote]gimpz0rz wrote:
Oh no… This is one of the most pointless thread ever wrote… Sorry.

In most sports, you don’t need to have a good bench to perform. Even weaker athletes can produce more power than a guy benching 150% of his bodyweight. It’s called technique. Do you really think a baseball pitcher can bench 150% of his bodyweight ? Sure not. He needs to be agile in order to transfer the weight with accuracy and precision so he can throw his ball like mad.

By the way, I don’t play basketball but I think you need more legs and core(abs,back) to jump and move around faster. I don’t see why you would need big upper body muscles.[/quote]

Why do you think the NBA tests bench pressing? Are they just terribly misguided? (They may very well be!)

45

Dear lord, this thread seems to be deteriorating into a “functional” strength discussion. :stuck_out_tongue:

What I don’t understand is how people here cannot fathom how upper body strength would be beneficial to a basketball player.

There are plenty of skills in basketball that require chest, triceps and shoulder strength (which the bench press is a good indicator of. Such as passing (chest pass in particular), shooting, and post play.

Just because the ball only weighs 22 ounces does not mean that increasing maximal pressing strength won’t still have beneficial effects on one’s game. If say for instance a player could do sets of bench with 150lbs and had them improve to being able to do sets with 200 lbs, the ball would seem even lighter to them. This would likely improve the speed and accuracy with which they passed the ball, their shooting ability, and their post play.

Sure, it may not be that drastic of an improvement, but when you get to the higher levels smaller improvements can make a lot more difference than at lower levels. And since these guys are playing basketball to put food on their family table, it would seem that they would do everything in their power to get that little edge over the competition.

Good training,

Sentoguy

46

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Dear lord, this thread seems to be deteriorating into a “functional” strength discussion. :stuck_out_tongue:

What I don’t understand is how people here cannot fathom how upper body strength would be beneficial to a basketball player.

There are plenty of skills in basketball that require chest, triceps and shoulder strength (which the bench press is a good indicator of. Such as passing (chest pass in particular), shooting, and post play.

Just because the ball only weighs 22 ounces does not mean that increasing maximal pressing strength won’t still have beneficial effects on one’s game. If say for instance a player could do sets of bench with 150lbs and had them improve to being able to do sets with 200 lbs, the ball would seem even lighter to them. This would likely improve the speed and accuracy with which they passed the ball, their shooting ability, and their post play.

Sure, it may not be that drastic of an improvement, but when you get to the higher levels smaller improvements can make a lot more difference than at lower levels. And since these guys are playing basketball to put food on their family table, it would seem that they would do everything in their power to get that little edge over the competition.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

Either
A)you don’t lift
B)You don’t Play basketball
C)You just argue for the sake of D)argument
D)Your stupid

your bouncing a ball way over 20 times. Once you get over 20 you need to train your muscular endurance much more than your max weight. A person can bench 225 20 times and not be able to bench 315, while a person can bench 315 and not be able to get more than 12 at 225.

I might be D) like you since I’m arguing with you.

47

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

Either
A)you don’t lift
B)You don’t Play basketball
C)You just argue for the sake of D)argument
D)Your stupid
[/quote]

A) Yes I do
B) Yes I do
C) No, I argue when I disagree
D) I’d like to think I’m not

So…are you suggesting that improving maximal strength won’t improve strength endurance? Also, I never said anything about dribbling, that was someone else’s argument. I mentioned passing, shooting and post play. I don’t know how you play basketball, but when I play I don’t pass or shoot the ball way over 20 times in a row.

Might I pass or shoot the ball more than 20 times in a game? Yeah. But there are going to be breaks in between those passes/shots where my muscles can recover.

Also, if I can bench 315, then 22 ounces is going to be such a low percentage of my max strength that the act of shooting or passing that object is going to be a relative piece of cake. In other words it will be easier than if I could only bench 150. I will also be able to pass it faster, more accurately and I will most likely be able to shoot from further away with more accuracy.

Perhaps. But, also understand that I’m not trying to suggest that the ability to bench press 315 will make someone an elite level basketball player. What we are talking about are people who have already acquired a high level of skill in basketball benefiting from improved strength (at least that’s what I’m talking about).

I completely agree with what others have said that hand-eye coordination, knowledge of the game, and basketball specific skills are the most important components of being an elite level basketball player (oh, and being over 6’ seems to be a pretty good trait as well).

I’m just saying not to underestimate the benefits that strength training can have for basketball players.

Good training,

Sentoguy

48

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Dear lord, this thread seems to be deteriorating into a “functional” strength discussion. :stuck_out_tongue:

What I don’t understand is how people here cannot fathom how upper body strength would be beneficial to a basketball player.

There are plenty of skills in basketball that require chest, triceps and shoulder strength (which the bench press is a good indicator of. Such as passing (chest pass in particular), shooting, and post play.

Just because the ball only weighs 22 ounces does not mean that increasing maximal pressing strength won’t still have beneficial effects on one’s game. If say for instance a player could do sets of bench with 150lbs and had them improve to being able to do sets with 200 lbs, the ball would seem even lighter to them. This would likely improve the speed and accuracy with which they passed the ball, their shooting ability, and their post play.

Sure, it may not be that drastic of an improvement, but when you get to the higher levels smaller improvements can make a lot more difference than at lower levels. And since these guys are playing basketball to put food on their family table, it would seem that they would do everything in their power to get that little edge over the competition.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

I think the chest pass is the best example. Many guys can’t even throw a proper chest pass because they don’t have the strength. Instead they just push the ball with almost all the force coming from their dominant hand and arm.

Sure, that’s only one small component of the game, though. And you can be a very good player without ever throwing a chest pass.

49

[quote]Bonn1997 wrote:
…I think the chest pass is the best example. Many guys can’t even throw a proper chest pass because they don’t have the strength. Instead they just push the ball with almost all the force coming from their dominant hand and arm.

Sure, that’s only one small component of the game, though. And you can be a very good player without ever throwing a chest pass. [/quote]

That is the point. You do not need a big bench to be a good player.

Getting stronger can certainly help as long as the time you put into the weight room does not eat into the time you put into skills training or recovery.

Will the bb player in question be a better player if he goes through a good s&c program? No doubt about it but he can still be a good player without it.

How much better will he be? Who knows?

50

[quote]Bonn1997 wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Stuey wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

Maybe compared to Baron and Marbury, AI doesn’t dribble hard. But I guarantee you he’s dribbling more powerfully than any amateur player. Otherwise, it would get stolen from him often.

To prevent the ball from being stolen when you’re dribbling, you can do one of two things:
(a) dribble very low to the ground (and it takes a lot of forearm and triceps, and probably some shoulder, biceps, chest, and back strength to control the ball when it’s coming up quickly; or
(b) dribble higher but more more forcefully, which requires the same muscles. At the highest levels, they do both a and b. Obviously hand-eye coordination and general motor skills are crucial too, though.

Seriously? this is your rationalisation?

I could thunder the ball up and down but I would lose it, not because I am not stronger than these guys but because I am not as good at dribbling a basketball.

It is a skill sport, it requires speed of thought, knowledge of the game, developed motor patterns, acceleration, hand speed, quick reactions.

I’ve already acknowledged all those things. You seem to think they and strength are mutually exclusive for some unfathomable reason. Finally, if a thread is retarded, what does that make you for posting in it? :slight_smile:

No, they arent mutually exclusive.

Being “strong” and being a good basketball player are not mutually exclusive.

Being “weak” and being a good basketball player are not mutually exclusive.

Providing being “strong” = being able to lay on your back and push a bar with a lot of weight into the air.

What is so hard to understand that being strong is not an absolute needed quality of a basketball player?

It’s hard to understand because I thought so many aspects of the game required explosive strength.

Explosive leg strength, maybe.

Tell me when, during a basketball game, you would make a bench press motion applying 200lbs of force.

Fair enough. I think people here are understating the importance of upper body strength in basketball but I’m probably overstating it too.

As for the testing, it probably would make more sense for the NBA to test squatting and deadlifting than bench pressing. [/quote]

I agree.

Besides, on the issue of getting “shoved around”, I think the guy with the bigger squat/deadlift is going to be a lot more solid than the guy with the bigger bench.

51

[quote]Bonn1997 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Dear lord, this thread seems to be deteriorating into a “functional” strength discussion. :stuck_out_tongue:

What I don’t understand is how people here cannot fathom how upper body strength would be beneficial to a basketball player.

There are plenty of skills in basketball that require chest, triceps and shoulder strength (which the bench press is a good indicator of. Such as passing (chest pass in particular), shooting, and post play.

Just because the ball only weighs 22 ounces does not mean that increasing maximal pressing strength won’t still have beneficial effects on one’s game. If say for instance a player could do sets of bench with 150lbs and had them improve to being able to do sets with 200 lbs, the ball would seem even lighter to them. This would likely improve the speed and accuracy with which they passed the ball, their shooting ability, and their post play.

Sure, it may not be that drastic of an improvement, but when you get to the higher levels smaller improvements can make a lot more difference than at lower levels. And since these guys are playing basketball to put food on their family table, it would seem that they would do everything in their power to get that little edge over the competition.

Good training,

Sentoguy

I think the chest pass is the best example. Many guys can’t even throw a proper chest pass because they don’t have the strength. Instead they just push the ball with almost all the force coming from their dominant hand and arm.

Sure, that’s only one small component of the game, though. And you can be a very good player without ever throwing a chest pass. [/quote]

Lol for anybody who has played basketball for a team and had to run up the court throwing hundreds of chest passes in practice you’ve just proved how little strength is necessary compared to a trained skill.

If your over 16 you have the strength necessary to throw a proper chest pass. But many don’t know how. They try to use too much muscle instead of properly stepping into a pass.

The same with shooting. I’ve seen 10 years olds that can shoot 3’s from NBA, when Grown men have trouble just getting the ball to reach the rim.

The best the strength training would do for someone like Durant, is minimize injury, and even then he can’t do it too much because then getting too large comes in to play.

52

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

Lol for anybody who has played basketball for a team and had to run up the court throwing hundreds of chest passes in practice you’ve just proved how little strength is necessary compared to a trained skill.
[/quote]

Do you just post replies, or do you actually read through the previous post first? I stated that I am well aware that basketball specific skills are more important than strength. I simply stated that for someone who has already developed the skills, improving strength will benefit them.

Once again, perhaps they do have the strength to throw a chest pass. But, improving their strength will improve the speed, distance and accuracy which they can throw that chest pass. Also, having greater maximal strength will improve their strength endurance.

Throwing a ball explosively (which a chest pass is, as well as a bounce pass) requires higher amounts of force than the purely endurance muscle fibers can handle. Especially if you have to do it over a long period.

I’ve seen young kids throw up 3’s also. But, that doesn’t mean that improving their strength won’t make it easier for them to shoot 3’s, improve their accuracy, and improve the number of 3’s they could shoot with that improved accuracy (stamina).

And yes, improved strength would probably help Durant minimize injury as well. Don’t you think that’s a good reason to do it? Getting too big? Yeah, that’s definitely hurt guys careers in the past (Malone, Barkley, Shaq). :stuck_out_tongue:

Good training,

Sentoguy

53

Strength training can play an important place in basketball but not in the way the OP believes. It helps with durablility. When you get beat up for 82 games in a season the extra strength, power and joint stability you gained in training camp, in the off season or maybe even throughout the season can help cut back on the injuries come playoff time.

Michael Jordan says an important thing that helped him finally get past Detroit in 91 was having the strength to keep going to the basket after getting continually beat up on by Detroit.

Basketball is a skill and finesse sport at heart. The physical component is more reactive strength then maximal strength related. You can teach fundamentals but some guys are going to move better then others and just have better basketball instincts.

Alot of the big strongs guys in the NBA are role players (defensive or rebounding specialists) while the superstars tend to be the long lanky highly reactive guys but as guys like MJ and Karl Malone showed strength training can greatly add to the length of time you can play at a high level and remain injury free.

54

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Airtruth wrote:

Lol for anybody who has played basketball for a team and had to run up the court throwing hundreds of chest passes in practice you’ve just proved how little strength is necessary compared to a trained skill.

Do you just post replies, or do you actually read through the previous post first? I stated that I am well aware that basketball specific skills are more important than strength. I simply stated that for someone who has already developed the skills, improving strength will benefit them.
[/quote]

Why do I respond?

Ok dumbass, you ask if I read through previuos post first yet you failed to Read the post before this one from Bonn1997 that I was directly responding to about chest passes. Now that I know you merely type to see yourself type I won’t make the mistake of responding to irrelavant posts anymore.

My bad.

[quote]
If your over 16 you have the strength necessary to throw a proper chest pass. But many don’t know how. They try to use too much muscle instead of properly stepping into a pass.

Once again, perhaps they do have the strength to throw a chest pass. But, improving their strength will improve the speed, distance and accuracy which they can throw that chest pass. Also, having greater maximal strength will improve their strength endurance.

Throwing a ball explosively (which a chest pass is, as well as a bounce pass) requires higher amounts of force than the purely endurance muscle fibers can handle. Especially if you have to do it over a long period.

The same with shooting. I’ve seen 10 years olds that can shoot 3’s from NBA, when Grown men have trouble just getting the ball to reach the rim.

The best the strength training would do for someone like Durant, is minimize injury, and even then he can’t do it too much because then getting too large comes in to play.

I’ve seen young kids throw up 3’s also. But, that doesn’t mean that improving their strength won’t make it easier for them to shoot 3’s, improve their accuracy, and improve the number of 3’s they could shoot with that improved accuracy (stamina).

And yes, improved strength would probably help Durant minimize injury as well. Don’t you think that’s a good reason to do it? Getting too big? Yeah, that’s definitely hurt guys careers in the past (Malone, Barkley, Shaq). :stuck_out_tongue:

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

55

Oh man.

Hey, guess what, some sports require different combinations of strength, skill, endurance and so forth…

Sometimes, imagine this, you can have more of one quality and less of another. Sometimes, if you focus on one, you may defocus on another.

I’m immediately hoping to see chess players start doing lots of pulling and pressing, but especially front raises, because they move a lot of chess pieces, and surely having more strength would improve their game!

56

With all I said about Durant being a great athlete and lifting not being a big part of what he does on the court, that skill is by far much more important, I will say this much, that if he improved his strength he would be near unstoppable, much more resistant to fatigue, better in the post on offense and defense, better at driving, and better at being strong in the air.

I’ll never forget the difference in Kobe Bryant between his first and second year. The Lakers played the Trailblazers and Scottie Pippen (who was not in the prime of his career) but who still was a defensive stud was covering him. He destroyed Pippen, and was so much stronger around the basket, driving, and on defense it was incredible, his physique was the best it has been as well, and he gave the lifting alot of credit. In fact, I think Kobe needs to get back to the weights a bit more. But lifting would definitely give Durant a boost for sure…

57

[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
With all I said about Durant being a great athlete and lifting not being a big part of what he does on the court, that skill is by far much more important, I will say this much, that if he improved his strength he would be near unstoppable, much more resistant to fatigue, better in the post on offense and defense, better at driving, and better at being strong in the air.

I’ll never forget the difference in Kobe Bryant between his first and second year. The Lakers played the Trailblazers and Scottie Pippen (who was not in the prime of his career) but who still was a defensive stud was covering him. He destroyed Pippen, and was so much stronger around the basket, driving, and on defense it was incredible, his physique was the best it has been as well, and he gave the lifting alot of credit. In fact, I think Kobe needs to get back to the weights a bit more. But lifting would definitely give Durant a boost for sure…[/quote]

Kobe does look like he’s lost some muscle compared to about 5 years ago.

58

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

Why do I respond?

Ok dumbass, you ask if I read through previuos post first yet you failed to Read the post before this one from Bonn1997 that I was directly responding to about chest passes. Now that I know you merely type to see yourself type I won’t make the mistake of responding to irrelavant posts anymore.

My bad.
[/quote]

LOL. No, my bad.

Sorry I didn’t realize that you were responding to Bonn and not my post. Once again, I apologize for my reading comprehension skills and for insulting yours.

Keep up the intelligent discussion.

Sentoguy