European Elections

TQB · June 13, 2009, 12:50pm

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
TQB wrote:

As an aside your claim about Malmo is nonsense. About 27% of inhabitants are immigrants, the largest contingent being those Danish spongers. Given that the Swedish definition of immigrants are those with one parent born abroad my own children with a US mother are immigrants.

The area around Malmo does have a nasty presence of the main racist party, the Swedish Democrats, though. This is probably the source of the claim.

Places like Rosengard has also to do with this. Nowadays when you spend time with a swede or dane, it seems to be almost a rule that the subject of immigration related problems must come up.[/quote]

For those who do not know what Rosengard is, it is a purpose built slum in Malmo. Those who can get out,do. Not surprisingly there is a preponderance of r4ecent immigrants there.

Sifu · June 13, 2009, 11:15pm

[quote]TQB wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Perhaps because the EU is first and foremost designed for the benefit and interest of big business. Europe doesn’t have the kind of antitrust laws the US does. There are companies in Europe that have greater yearly revenues than some of the EU members Gross National Product. So there is a lot of money to go around.

Article 81-83 of the treaty. Something Microsoft, IKEA and others have noted to their cost. Mobile phone roaming charges have been slashed, where national governments would have been powerless to act. Air passengers have right when delayed of bumped. All day to day work for the Commission. [/quote]

I think some of that got lost in the translation. American antitrust laws are more robust than EU laws. In Germany the major telecom companies are preventing the deployment of 4G technology so they can continue to charge high prices.

[quote]
As for GDP/Company revenue

By it’s very nature the EU parliament is remote from the people. With so many different languages being spoken it is bound to be difficult for citizens to pay attention and provide oversight. Additionally when the constitution and other legal documents are deliberately written in such complex and convoluted legalese that even expert lawyers can’t understand them that creates another level of disconnect where the people don’t have a clue what is going on.

It is actually quite easy to monitor. All EP documentation, including the minutes of the plenary meeting and voting lists are translated into all the official languages and posted on the web. Difficult to read? Sure it is legislation, usually written to modify existing laws. That is never easy. Rewriting from scratch can create havoc in the Court of Justice as there would be endless claim about the validity of precedents. [/quote]

Trying to follow along with translations is just not the same as when you understand what someone is saying and don’t need a translation. That is why there is the saying “lost in the translation”. I’ll give you an example, a few weeks ago in the US congress the speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi tried to cover her ass by accusing the CIA of lying to congress.

In the press conference she was super nervous, stumbling over her words and was quite obviously lying. It was a meltdown. Trying to glean what was going on from a translation would just not be the same.

[quote]

As an aside your claim about Malmo is nonsense. About 27% of inhabitants are immigrants, the largest contingent being those Danish spongers. Given that the Swedish definition of immigrants are those with one parent born abroad my own children with a US mother are immigrants. [/quote]

I can remember reading that a quarter of Malmo’s population was muslim back in 2004.
There are parts of that city where even the police won’t go without first getting a ghetto pass from the muslims. Given the drastic difference in birth rates between Swedish women and muslim women it make good sense to count the children so they can track the change in their society.

[quote]
The area around Malmo does have a nasty presence of the main racist party, the Swedish Democrats, though. This is probably the source of the claim. [/quote]

No it wasn’t the source of the claim.

Where there is smoke there is fire. Where there are communities that European leftists have subjected to mass immigration there are going to be people who have first hand experience dealing with the consequences and don’t like it.

Given what it takes to generate accusations of racism in Europe your accusation of racism has no validity. It is not racism when a people who are being subjected to colonisation democratically organize so they can resist it. It is self preservation.

Sifu · June 13, 2009, 11:28pm

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
TQB wrote:

As an aside your claim about Malmo is nonsense. About 27% of inhabitants are immigrants, the largest contingent being those Danish spongers. Given that the Swedish definition of immigrants are those with one parent born abroad my own children with a US mother are immigrants.

The area around Malmo does have a nasty presence of the main racist party, the Swedish Democrats, though. This is probably the source of the claim.

Places like Rosengard has also to do with this. Nowadays when you spend time with a swede or dane, it seems to be almost a rule that the subject of immigration related problems must come up.[/quote]

What do you expect? Sweden and Denmark are countries with small populations. Countries where because of sexual equality for women they have low birth rates. Those countries are being flooded with large numbers of muslims who have birthrates that are several times higher.

If the Swedes and Danes end up becoming minorities and the muslims become the majority there are going to be big changes in the culture, especially for women.

If they don’t act now they are going to end up on the loosing end of something that historically has never gone well for the looser.

Sifu · June 14, 2009, 12:16am

[quote]makkun wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
makkun:
Sure, you’re absolutely right - I just wanted to wind up Sifu a little bit with his conspiracy-theorising. It was just too tempting. [/quote]

Makkun that is so thoughtful of you to think of my like that. I’m really touched by that. This board just keeps getting nicer. I can feel the love.

[quote]

let’s see:
Erasmus wrote: “Europe has basicly voted centre-right, which is not unusual in an economic recession.”

Is he right?
Or is it generally fringevoting.

It is interesting to anticipate the political spectrum in five years. Will the world economy be totally stable and the EU Parliament will revert to cushy lobbyism once more? Or will it be in turmoil, with green, right, left and digital radicals in the midst?

I think Erasmus’s post was the most accurate and balanced one so far in the thread (beside yours). It’s been a move towards the centre-right, or more clearly (at least for the UK), it was a move away from the left. Wrt the BNP getting two seats - if I understand the math correctly, they succeeded mostly due to the Labour vote breaking down (and rightly so) and the lower turnout (which sucks); thus creating a larger share than they would have normally had. [/quote]

Actually because the mathematical formula used to determine winners and losers is based upon the number of MEP’s a party already has the BNP was at a distinct advantage because they did not have any encumbants in office. This makes their win much more significant. It will also make it easier for them next time.

The BNP got more votes than last time while the Lib/Lab/Con all got less. Even if a lot of Labour supporters didn’t change their vote to the BNP to help them and instead stayed home that says a lot, because although they wouldn’t vote for the BNP they also couldn’t be bothered to vote Labour in order to stop the BNP.

[quote]

Experience with fringe parties in parliaments in the long term is that they tend to tear themselves apart from within (see the German NPD at the moment) and will normally represent a blip in the overall scope of things. Imho that has to do with their ability to cope with growth and to deal with their increased political role professionally. I think that the deciding factor over this EU parliament will be whether the down-turn is a recession (and thus there will be a recovery), or whether it’s a permanent correction (in which case I would expect fringe parties of all types to make a longer appearance). [/quote]

Europe has a lot of dead weight to carry with it’s lavish welfare. European politicians love to confiscate as much money as they can from the taxpayer then blow it on their pet projects. This dynamic does not favour a robust recovery. India and China are eating your lunch because Europe is not competitive.

[quote]
I’m obviously disappointed by the overall results for social democracy (taking out the UK’s Labour party which has deserved all the kickings it’s getting), but not really worried about a few right wing crazies making an appearance.

Makkun [/quote]

That’s it keep deluding yourself that it is just a handful of fringe crazies that have gained and continue with business as usual.

Sifu · June 14, 2009, 1:38am

[quote]makkun wrote:
Sifu wrote:
[…] I read that article in the mail, thanks for bringing it into the discussion for me. Those articles clearly show the extreme desperation of the MSM to do everything they can do to smear the BNP. They are really stretching there to call attending a fundraiser “a link to the BNP”. They are trying to create a news story out of nothing.

Using their twisted logic one could say that I have links to the Spanish inquisition, because my roommate attended a Democratic party fundrasier, the party of Barack Obama, whose recent speech at Notre Dame gives him links to the Roman Catholic church which is the group responsible for the inquisition.

The MSM is desperately grasping at straws and they are destroying their credibility in the process. The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch along with the Sun, Sky news, FOX News etc… Just a few weeks ago the Times sister publication The SUN made up a bogus story accusing the BNP of passing out literature saying the Ghurkas should be kicked out of the country which they were forced to retract and are now being sued for.

People see what is going on and are increasingly bypassing the MSM to get their information directly from the BNP. That is why their website is by far the most popular of all the political parties. That is also why there was a terrorist attack on their site two weeks ago.

Tony Bliar was Rupert Murdochs bitch and George Bush was in his pocket too. You can’t say that about the BNP. That is the real issue here. The BNP is a genuine threat to the power and control of people like Rupert Murdoch.

See - that’s why I posted it. Because I thought it was about as irrelevant and bullshit as the Air France connection you brought up which was coming from the Daily Mail. And to pull your leg a bit. [/quote]

Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more. All I am saying is it is suspicious that on the first day they immediately dismissed the possibility of terrorism.

[quote]
Also, no I don’t agree. I think the BNP is a virulently antidemocratic nazi party, which if given the power would be a danger to the democratic state - but I think it doesn’t have the organisational structure to sustain within the frameworks of a modern elected parliament, given it’s fringe-style activist base. And - I think it’s a typical protest vote party which had a lucky break. I wouldn’t get my hopes up.

Makkun[/quote]

That is an astounding claim. The BNP is gaining support because they are listening to their supporters and giving them what they want. That is the very definition of democracy in action. It is amazing that such outrageous claims are constantly made about a party that hasn’t even been in power.

What is not democracy is the Lib/Lab/Con hat trick that shares power amongst an elitist minority who are indebted to big business interests and other wealthy supporters ie Rupert Murdoch.

The 2005 Labour election manifesto promised the British people a refferendum on the EU constitution and the people voted for a party that would have Tony Bliar as PM. Then in 2007 the party forced Bliar out and a handful of Labour party elites chose Brown to become PM.

Brown in turn passed on holding a general election so the people could have a chance to ratify or reject his premiership, cancelled the election manifesto promise of a referrendum on the new constitution, then sneaked over to Lisbon and signed Britain on to the EU constitution. I would not call this an example of democracy in action! Would you?

Or how about Angela Merkel saying that since the voters cannot be trusted to give the correct vote it will be the EU policy to stop having referendums on the EU constitution. The only reason why Ireland had a referendum arfter that is because their constitution specifically orders referendums on such big issues. The Irish voted no. So guess what happens now? They have been ordered to have another referendum on the EU constitution.

Or how about the actions of the Greater Mancester Police. The GMP is the most politically active police force in the country. A few months ago when the BNP was going to hold a political rally they went around threatening to take action against the owners of the meeting hall if they allowed the BNP a legally constituted political party to hold a political rally in their hall.

In a democracy the police are not supposed to use their powers to support or hinder political parties.

Additionally although there were numerous threats of violence made against the BNP rally on various Labour party message boards the GMP stood by and did nothing when a mob of 30 UAF members assaulted 3 BNP members. One man was sent to hospital with his face torn open from where he was assaulted with a claw hammer wielded by an African immigrant.

Tory leader David Cameron is a founding member of UAF but for some reason he hasn’t distanced himself from this act of politically motivated violence.

Instead of worrying about the BNP you should be concerned about what the mainstream parties already in power have done to democracy in Europe because they are destroying it.

Sifu · June 14, 2009, 1:45am

[quote]token wrote:
Sifu, just say google it… guardianista: "Derogaratory.
an insult used by right wing commentators to describe middle class left/liberals and there perceived liberal agenda. " So, you were simply insulting that otehr guy? …

Communism is about forced equallity, nazi is about white power shit, how is this the same?[/quote]

Communism is not about equality. It is all about an elite minority using mass murder and terror in order to dominate the masses who they keep poor. Both are totalitarian systems that use violence as a means to an end.

Sifu · June 14, 2009, 2:44am

[quote]lixy wrote:
orion wrote:
Nazism was not about enforced equality?

Equality is something our species has been striving for since a long time. The principle of a judicial system that treats everybody equally is the cornerstone of a democratic state, and the latter is expected to enforce it. [/quote]

It is hard wired into our DNA to want to be the top dog or Alpha Male it is also hard wired for some of us to take on a subservient role.

[quote]

Nazism departs from this by postulating that different races are not equal, with the consequences we all know and loathe (Nationalism, which for some reason doesn’t carry as much negative connotation as Nazism, does the same thing but focuses on citizenship instead of race). [/quote]

As usual you are quite wrong. Nazism and nationalism are absolutely not the same thing. Though I am certain that in the context of Europe you would like it to have that connotation.

Ironically though you don’t see nationalism as a bad thing when it comes to Palestinians trying to push the Jews off of the land of Israel. You also don’t see nationalism as a bad thing by choosing a religion that has it’s own nationalistic apirations and ideology.

In the context of Europe you want nationalism to be synonamous with the Nazis so good people will be inhibited from protecting their society from being taken over by yours and becoming a stateless people like the Jews were.

[quote]
Communism, on the other hand, had an international mission that took racial equality as far as fighting Mendelism. Which puts it totally at odds with Nazism for which Mendelism didn’t go far enough in its list of inheritable traits. [/quote]

Tell that to the Ukranians, the Tibetans or any number of peoples who the communists declared enemies of the state.

Sifu · June 14, 2009, 2:51am

[quote]lixy wrote:
orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
orion wrote:
Nazism was not about enforced equality?

Equality is something our species has been striving for since a long time. The principle of a judicial system that treats everybody equally is the cornerstone of a democratic state, and the latter is expected to enforce it.

Nazism departs from this by postulating that different races are not equal, with the consequences we all know and loathe (Nationalism, which for some reason doesn’t carry as much negative connotation as Nazism, does the same thing but focuses on citizenship instead of race).

Communism, on the other hand, had an international mission that took racial equality as far as fighting Mendelism. Which puts it totally at odds with Nazism for which Mendelism didn’t go far enough in its list of inheritable traits.

Nazism and Communism both promised equality to their constituency, one for a specific people, the other for a specific class. Both are in the end expressions of average utilitarianism.

In order to achieve their goals, both ideologies had to fight a different meaning of equality, quality under the law. Collectivist “equality”, be it national socialist or communist cannot coexist with equality under the law which is out of necessity an individualist, libertarian concept , for who would be equal before the law if not individuals.

And that is just the theoretical part.

In the real world both systems had fascist, socialist, nationalist and militaristic elements, combined with a deification of their leaders.

That is and was the standard model in Germany, Italy, Russia, China and wherever else, which just goes to show that collectivist drivel is easily interchangeable and combinable.

This is silly. Class equality doesn’t exist. People are subsidized, some have some sort of immunity, etc. You might not like it, but it’s there.

Collectivist states are dangerous. No argument there. In fact, any state big enough is dangerous, collectivist or otherwise. But to equate discrimination based on wealth (which exists in just about every country I know of) with racial discrimination is simply outrageous.

All equalities weren’t born equal![/quote]

They are equal when all they are is empty slogans used solely for the purpose of mobilising fools to follow.

Sifu · June 14, 2009, 3:01am

[quote]TQB wrote:
kaaleppi wrote:
TQB wrote:

As an aside your claim about Malmo is nonsense. About 27% of inhabitants are immigrants, the largest contingent being those Danish spongers. Given that the Swedish definition of immigrants are those with one parent born abroad my own children with a US mother are immigrants.

The area around Malmo does have a nasty presence of the main racist party, the Swedish Democrats, though. This is probably the source of the claim.

Places like Rosengard has also to do with this. Nowadays when you spend time with a swede or dane, it seems to be almost a rule that the subject of immigration related problems must come up.

For those who do not know what Rosengard is, it is a purpose built slum in Malmo. Those who can get out,do. Not surprisingly there is a preponderance of r4ecent immigrants there.[/quote]

It doesn’t sound like it was purpose built to be a slum.

RosengÃ¥rd, literally “Rose garden”, is a city district in MalmÃ¶, Sweden. As of 1 January 2007, the population was 21,955, of which 60 percent were born outside of Sweden.[1] Albeit frequently incorrectly referred to as a suburb, RosengÃ¥rd constitutes an integral part of MalmÃ¶ city and is, contrary to common belief, fairly centrally located, neighbouring the city’s Centrum district. It has also been the place for several riots, most recently in December 2008.

RosengÃ¥rd was built between 1960â??1970 with the Million Programme. It was regarded as kind of a futuristic neighbourhood. MalmÃ¶ suffered from a significant shortage of cheap housing. When immigrants arrived in the 1960s and 1970s they frequently were offered housing at RosengÃ¥rd, and at the same time (and, particularly, later) many Swedish nationals left the area.

In the 1990s a new wave of refugees arrived in Sweden, from Arabic countries, the former Yugoslavia, Africa, etc.

The Million Programme (Miljonprogrammet) is the common name for an ambitious housing programme implemented in Sweden between 1965 and 1974 by the governing Swedish Social Democratic Party to make sure everyone could have a home at a reasonable price.

The aim of the programme was to build a million new dwellings in a 10-year period (hence the project’s name). At the same time, a large proportion of the older unmodernised housing stock was demolished.

In the end, about 1,006,000 new dwellings were built. The net result was an increase in Swedenâ??s housing stock of 650,000 new apartments and houses, with a general rise in quality,[1] arguably at the expense of aesthetics.

TQB · June 14, 2009, 6:45am

I was there when it was built. It was built as a slum, whatever Wikipedia says.

Guess which side of the road the immigrants live…

token · June 15, 2009, 9:58am

We in Sweden are not being colonized…

Sifu · June 15, 2009, 3:31pm

[quote]token wrote:
We in Sweden are not being colonized…[/quote]

You are in denial. Your country has taken in large numbers of muslims who have absolutely no intention of whatsoever of becoming Swedish. They have their own seperate culture that they are going to maintain and push into new areas of Sweden until they dominate. That is colonization.

Muslims keep their women barefoot and pregnant that is part of their culture. Unless Swedish women return to a traditional role of babymakers and start having 3-4 times as many children as they do now you Swedes are going to be overtaken by the muslims.

token · June 15, 2009, 3:43pm

A pickupline?

Sorry, a joke…

token · June 15, 2009, 4:15pm

But seriously…

I have muslims in my family, that are not trying to take over our country.
There are some rascists that won’t allow their daughters to have native Swedish boyfriends and such, i don’t know how many % those are, but having met many muslims through school, military service, work and private, i don’t think there are many of them.

Sifu, what do you think of this:
Some Swedish old retired people move to a region of Spain, don’t remember which part, they keep to themsleves and mainly speak Swedish. They probably move becaurse of the weather. Are they colonizing?

lixy · June 15, 2009, 8:55pm

[quote]token wrote:
There are some rascists that won’t allow their daughters to have native Swedish boyfriends and such, [/quote]

Native? As in Sami?

More seriously, there are also some racists who won’t allow their daughters to have Muslim boyfriends.

token · June 15, 2009, 9:20pm

Ofcourse, there is rascism all over in all directions, what i ment was that not all muslims are rascists. With native i ment infÃ¶dd/infÃ¶ding, calles myself that sometimes, confuses people sometimes.

Nominal_Prospect · June 15, 2009, 9:51pm

[quote]Jab1 wrote:
Gutted about the BNP getting two seats. How can there be hundreds of thousands of racist climate change denialists in this country? Shameful. And also just as shameful are the people who didn’t go out and vote and let this happen.

I voted Lib Dems in England. Very nearly voted Greens but found out they don’t support nuclear energy in the nic of time. Then afterwards found out they are anti science nut jobs and am incredibly glad I didn’t vote for them![/quote]

You actually believe that propaganda about the BNP? How shameful.

Cockney_Blue · June 15, 2009, 10:12pm

[quote]Sifu wrote:
makkun wrote:
Just in the interest of making sure there is an appropriate coverage on matters with a potential impact on parties represented in the EU parliament (see earlier mentioning of the Airfrance plane crash), let’s not overlook this news report then:

Man who killed guard at Holocaust museum has links to BNP

'[…]Yesterday it emerged that Von Brunn, a longtime antisemite, had attended meetings of the American Friends of the British National party (AFBNP), which was set up to raise funds from far-right activists in America.

Mark Cotterill, who ran the US-based organisation before it folded in 2001, said: ‘He did attend meetings. I have just checked my database and he is down as ‘meetings only’, so he was not a major donor, although he may have put some money on the plate when it was passed round.’

The AFBNP treasurer, Todd Blodgett, also told the Washington Post that he and Von Brunn had attended fundraising meetings in Arlington County. The BNP leader, Nick Griffin, spoke to at least two AFBNP meetings and said the money raised by the organisation made a ‘significant contribution to the BNP’s [2001] general election campaign’. […]

Just to make sure we get a variety of sources, and not just the Guardian here:

White supremacist who opened fire at U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum ‘is a supporter of the BNP’

[…]Last night, it emerged that von Brunn had attended meetings of the American Friends of the British National Party in Arlington, Virginia.

Todd Blodgett, a former Reagan White House aide, told the Washington Post he went with von Brunn to meetings of the group, which was set up to raise funds for the BNP.

He said the U.S. army veteran believed he fought for the wrong side in the Second World War.

‘Von Brunn is obsessed with Jewish people,’ said Mr Blodgett. ‘He had equal contempt for both Jews and blacks, but if he had to pick one group to wipe out, he’d always say it would be Jews.’[…]

Also in the Times: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6481475.ece

It’s also funny how on some of the nazi-boards there’s already talk about that this has been a set up.

Makkun

I read that article in the mail, thanks for bringing it into the discussion for me. Those articles clearly show the extreme desperation of the MSM to do everything they can do to smear the BNP. They are really stretching there to call attending a fundraiser “a link to the BNP”. They are trying to create a news story out of nothing.

Using their twisted logic one could say that I have links to the Spanish inquisition, because my roommate attended a Democratic party fundrasier, the party of Barack Obama, whose recent speech at Notre Dame gives him links to the Roman Catholic church which is the group responsible for the inquisition.

The MSM is desperately grasping at straws and they are destroying their credibility in the process. The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch along with the Sun, Sky news, FOX News etc… Just a few weeks ago the Times sister publication The SUN made up a bogus story accusing the BNP of passing out literature saying the Ghurkas should be kicked out of the country which they were forced to retract and are now being sued for.

People see what is going on and are increasingly bypassing the MSM to get their information directly from the BNP. That is why their website is by far the most popular of all the political parties. That is also why there was a terrorist attack on their site two weeks ago.

Tony Bliar was Rupert Murdochs bitch and George Bush was in his pocket too. You can’t say that about the BNP. That is the real issue here. The BNP is a genuine threat to the power and control of people like Rupert Murdoch. [/quote]

The point is that this nutter is an example of a BNP supporter. Not surprising given that the leaders of the party are holocaust deniers and convicted violent racist thugs.

And for the record, I speak freely with my Mexican friends about how ridiculous the US Mexico border is and they fully agree with me. There are a lot of educated people here with similar ideas to me about the inevitability of globalisation. As they see manafacturing disapearing to China, they have two options, they either rally against it, or look for the opportunity in it. Guess which group are typically the more succesful.

Cockney_Blue · June 15, 2009, 10:16pm