Eric Barnhart and T-Mag: A Program For The Morbidly Obese?

My only concern for this article is that it won’t reach the people who need it most. I think it’s fairly safe to say that the vast majority of T-mag readers are not obese beginners.

Hopefully if it does get written, people will print it out and give it to whomever needs it or links the article from some other site(s).

I’ve linked this thread at the NAAFA “Exercise at Any Size” discussion board. When the article gets published, I’ll link it at the NAAFA site as well.

I’d like to clarify a few common misunderstandings. First of all, I don’t expect T-Mag to design a program for me personally. (Or for any individual, for that matter.) So there really isn’t much use in examining or critiquing my personal program, good or bad. (Although I am open to it.) Besides, I’m probably far ahead of the typical blob since I’ve experimented with many of the various programs outlined here at T-Mag, and tried to develop a custom program based on knowledge gained here. (As well as elsewhere, like Poliquin’s “Manly Weight Loss”, which is not really oriented towards the MO either.)

Second of all, I will agree that there are many programs here to work with, but each program has a specific goal in mind, right? There is a meltdown program, there is a hypertrophy specific program, etc. Nobody said to just modify some other program to fit a hypertrophy goal, we’ve got hypertrophy-specific training. Why not MO-specific training? Are only the elite athletes allowed to benefit from the expertise of the Alessi’s, Waterbury’s and Thibadeau’s here? What’s up with that? Frankly, I could try to synthesize the perfect program on my own and take years to do it, or I could persuade an expert to set all the MO on the right track from the start. Which makes more sense?

I am looking forward to reading what the staff comes up with. I wonder where they will find several MO willing to test it. Any one else lurking out there willing to step forward and be a guinea pig? (Sorry, but anyone who already looks like Patricia need not apply. You need to look more like Marlon Brando or Louie Anderson.)

If you live alone, how large can your place be that it takes you such a long time to clean, do laundry, maintain the yard, etc.? Dust, vacuuming, etc. can be done while your laundry machine/dryer’s running unless you tell me you handwash everything.

I don’t know anyone on the board who has the optimal lifestyle for BBing – plenty of rest, no stress, etc., etc. I work 50-60 hrs/week (during “easy/slow” time – worked as many as 90+ hrs/week for months before during the peak time) plus 16+ hrs/week traveling and flying, and am taking a creative writing class (just for my sanity). And every week, I have to deal w/ the time zone changes (3 hours). When you run out of time to prep food, just go to Wendy’s and order their salad. You don’t have to eat their greasy burgers and fries. Buy pre-cut veggies, pre-cooked chicken breasts, a tub of cottage cheese, canned tuna, some beef jerky, and you’re good to go. You don’t have to spend hours in the kitchen (I don’t – and I don’t have a kitchen 5 days/week).

To barn-e:

I’m going to respond because I used to be what I would call obese. I used to weigh 244 at 5’7. Then one day I got fed up with myself. I read up on dieting and found the body for life book(yea, I know). I starting off my weightlifting and walking. I couldn’t jog because it hurt me knees too much. I did what I could and the weight just melted off of me. In one year I lost 88 pounds and pretty lean. Now I weigh 170 and most people who see me think I have good genetics. But I have something better than good genetics, drive and determination. I’m sure there are a lot of other t-mag readers that fit into this category.

I think another thing wrong with obese people is that they make too many excuses for theirselves. Now, I’m not trying to be mean. I am also guilty of this. I used to think that I didn’t eat much, but now that I think about it I ate a lot of shit… If you want it bad enough you can and will do it.

Steeeeellaaaaa!!!

(Sorry, I just had to do that.)

I gotta tell you gals and guys, this is starting to degenerate into “nagging”, which is a real turn-off to anybody. And the general response to nagging seems to be setting up a block to deny people any power over you.

As my doctor once said, “you know what to do, it’s just a matter of when you decide to do it.” He doesn’t nag me, but I know he’s waiting to see what happens.

So it’s not a matter of you nagging me to do something; Stella and JasonL and harmonjh and Dr. Martin and Nurse Chris and Elaine (the hot girl from high school who just got divorced) and even that hot single babe three aisles over here at work do not have power to make me do what I need to do. Only I have that power.

It’s a matter of wielding it.

This is along the lines of seconding JasonL. There are so many reasons/excuses that we’ve all used at one point or another. It’s up to you to stop allowing anything but success in your life.

Brief history: I weighed 185-190 for 3 years - at 5’2" - and was diagnosed as having hypothyroidism, hypoglycemia and clinical, organic depression so yeah, I had health/hormonal issues I could have blamed. But I got sufficiently sick of myself, joined a gym and did water aerobics. I lost about 50lbs over 5 or so months. Then I started doing free weights and lost another 20lbs over several more months. Got tested for all the “ailments” again and guess what? No hypothyroidism. No hypoglycemia. No clinical, organic depression. And the being a single person thing? Try being in a horrendous marriage and then being a single parent working 60 hours a week and making only 17k a year. Try dealing with those emotional burdens and their energy-zapping ability. Well, it was under those conditions that I lost my weight. The “Fuck you, I will make it work!” attitude that came from that period of my life has dramatically bettered all aspects of my life now.

While it would be cool to have an article/routine designed for the different physical abilities of the MO, mostly it’s the determination to overcome anything in your way that’s lacking.

There have been some damn good comments and advice given above. The “fear of succeeding” bit was so true it hurts. The “only I have the power to make it happen for myself” thing is also pure veritas. And the Tribex suggestion was spot-on as well.

I have to say that if you’re weighing 350 and are existing on 2500 cals/day, something sounds very wrong. The most likely suspects are: (1) You are not accurately recording what you eat. I know that it sounds strange, but people will sabotage themselves in all sorts of ways on this. They don’t count their cheat meals, or the soft drinks, or the three packs of gum, or whatever. (2) You ARE accurately recording it, but everything you eat is pure crap. Basically, this means that even though you’ve got a fair amount of food going in, your body can’t use much of it and is in starvation mode. (3) You’re eating it in one or two meals per day rather than spreading it out. This will lead to the same result as (2).

If your dietary habits are really okay, then it means that somehow your body has gotten to the point that it is holding on to every single calorie it can and your metabolism has fallen thorugh the floor. Stress will contribute to this, as will some lifestyle problems. But in this case there’s an easy fix. Start exercising.

Now, I know that you’re already doing stuff, and that’s great, but instead of a program like 5x5, what you want is something that’s faster-paced and gets you moving more. May I suggest GBC? You can adjust the weights as needed, and the only thing you need to try and do is do more with each workout. Not a lot more, just a little.

If you hold your calories steady and increase your exercise output - in any way, it doesn’t have to be weights - you will start to lose fat. It’s physics, and it works for everyone. Not trying to preach at you here, just clarifying things a little. You may see water fluctuations and so on, but over time, you WILL lose weight. Guaranteed.

Finally, don’t worry about BF measurements right now. In your position they’re not going to be accurate anyway, so why waste time with them? I wouldn’t worry too much about the scale either. Just worry about the numbers on the food log pad and in the gym. Do this for six months, and you’ll see results.

Best of luck.

Eric – I applaude your gumption to post what you have, and to issue the challenge you did. Don’t be satisfied with anything other than what suits your specific needs!

Just a TAD bit of disappointment in my T-Mag Family…but you’re my family nonetheless…so it’s all good…

Eric said it best…for some reason, we will accept goal-specific training WHOLEHEARTEDLY for all KINDS of goals…(there are a HELL of lot more people who NEED to lose large amounts of fat than “need” to increase their bench, squat, or punching strength; or who “need” to get their abs to show).

But for some reason we get on the “you’re lazy/modify a program already there/you’re just making excuses/just eat less” bandwagon when the goal is clearly this:

1)A program that will safely, efficiently and steadily lead to weight loss in the morbidly obese.

  1. One specific for that goal and not some modification of a previous program (which as T.C. and Chris have often preached is NOT a good way to go about a goal and will often lead to sub-par results), AND

3)Is devised by a set of Pro’s whose job, life and profession is at least partially dedicated to devising training programs.

Again…I am excited to see what the guys at “Testosterone” come up with…

Mufasa

Thanks Mufasa. It’s nice to read that somebody else understands the point perfectly. I only hope that there is somebody else out there who will benefit besides me. (Lurkers? How about it?)

I’m an engineer, not an exercise physiologist nor a metabolic scientist, so fine-tuning an exact program is beyond my skills. I too look forward to seeing what they come up with.

Eric,

I too applaud your request for a program designed for you. I am keenly interested to see what the experts will come up with. I agree that the programs commonly found here probably won’t be ideal in your situation. In fact, after a couple years’ layoff from lifting, I found that those programs were too hard for me when my level of fitness had sunk so low. And I have found that what worked well for me before doesn’t work so well now. Furthermore, several of the programs were too much for my 40-something husband with no lifting experience (but decades of high-intensity aerobics).

To those designing the program, I’d like to describe a few different types of MO people for consideration.

  1. I know a man who’s probably 6’ and maybe 450, maybe 500 pounds. He really does want to lose the weight, and he really doesn’t know how. I doubt he knows the difference between protein and carbs. He is currently on his second hospital-monitored fast. With his first fast, he lost a couple hundred pounds having only liquid meals for 9 months. Now in my opinion, having only liquid for months is not a healthy way to lose weight. After he started eating solid food again, he gained back all the weight and more. I know, this is no surprise to people here. But a lot of people really don’t know anything about weight loss. And they tend to trust hospitals. This man used to be a wrestler in college; he lifted weights then and was extremely fit and strong. I’d be willing to bet he is still strong and has plenty of muscle, like Eric. He is afraid to lift because he’s afraid to get bigger; like many people, he doesn’t differentiate between fat and muscle. I would also bet that his metabolism sucks because of the fasting diets, and his sedentary job (he’s a driver’s ed instructor).

  2. My grandmother is another story. An obese diabetic with a pacemaker. Unlike the man described above, I think she has very little muscle. She can barely stand up from a sitting position. She’s on tons of medications. She does not know the difference between protein and carbs. I think a program for her would have to be somehow different than a program for the man described above; she is really weak and has serious health problems.

  3. My father has been somewhat overweight for awhile, but has recently gained a lot of fat. He’s 65, and carries almost all of that fat right in his belly. (The first guy is fat everywhere.) He has problems with blood clots, and I suspect he is diabetic or pre-diabetic. He has never lifted weights, but used to be extremely athletic (basketball player). Flexibility is a big problem; he can barely touch his knees, let alone toes.

Because diet and exercise have been a hobby of mine for years, I would like to make recommendations to these people. But it’s hard to do! I have learned, from experience, that I can’t just throw some hard-core program at them, even in a modified version, and expect them to do it.

I can’t wait to see the T-mag program for MO. The vast majority of my friends and family fall into this category!

Once again, I’ll point out I don’t expect a program designed for me but for morbidly obese people in general, with the emphasis on fat loss using achievable exercises.

Andersons, I think it might be difficult to create programs for every unique person, and especially for the elderly. The three people you describe would seem to need very unique programs. On the other hand, there seems to be a couple common factors worth considering.

Older men almost assuredly have diminished testosterone production, which will make it very hard to maintain lean body mass. They need to have both their testosterone and estrogen levels checked. The sex hormones have tremendous influence on body composition, a factor which is almost universally overlooked by doctors.

Another factor that I suspect is a problem in many elderly is the lack of protein intake. If your grandmother has trouble standing, she might not be getting enough protein to maintain muscle mass. I know a lot of elderly go for the meal replacement drinks, like Ensure, which is just pure carb crap. I’ve been trying to get my 91 year old father on Grow! to prevent some of the muscle wasting I see in him.

Finally, our societal knowledge of nutrition is abysmal. I’ve been considering writing an article “Metabolism for Dummies” to explain the basics of energy consumption / storage / expenditure so when a person selects a portion of food, they can answer for themselves the question “what is this going to do inside my body?” I find doing the research pretty good edification for myself.

Chris
I want to volunteer to be a guinea pig.

I am 5’10" and weigh in at 407#.

According to the home body fat tester at How to Measure Weight at Home: BMI, RFM, & More I have 37.5% body fat.

I have been eating “better” since Jan 1st (yeah, I jumped on the New Years resolution bandwagon). Better means, no softdrinks, no candy, no fast food, very low processed carbs. Meat, I eat alot of meat. Chicken mostly.

I started going to the gym (bally’s, whoo-hoo)almost a month ago, and I dont really have a work out program, so far I have just been sort of feeling my limits out. I havent done a 1 rep max on anything because I dont have anyone to lift with and as embarrassed as I am at the gym already, I shudder to think about having to cry for help for someone to pull a bar off my neck.
I do know that I can benchpress 170# at least 10x. My legs and back are considerably stronger though. On the hip sled I did 270#x8, 450#x8x2, 540#x5 and 630#x3. and on the back extesions I did the entire stack (about 250# i think) 20x4.

I also do 30 minutes of cardio on the eliptical machine after lifting. My heart rate hovers around 140 bpm during the cardio. (hopefully I am not taunting death)

My goal is to be able to play rugby or football by next summer. (2004) I think 275 to 285 pounds with 10% to 15% bf would not be completely unreasonable.

Chris, I would really like to sign on, please let me know what you think. I will provide you with any info that you want, if I have it.

Any feedback from anyone else, is of course also welcome.

I like the challenge that T-mag took on. It will be interesting to see what develops.

I have a question for you all prior to the development of a MO workout plan. Up until know the programs to lose fat are German Body Comp (Bowlful of Jelly), Fat to Fire I and II, Meltdown Training I and II. Am I missing any? T-mag hasn’t updated their FAQ page so I am asking the good people here.

Barn-e,

I agree with everything you said. I wanted to illustrate just how FAR so many people are from knowing how and being able to improve their body composition. I also wanted to illustrate how formidable the task would be. People need education, they need help, they need a do-able program. Meltdown sounds cool, but can I imagine my sedentary dad doing it? (Frankly, I can barely imagine myself doing it at this point, I have gotten so out of shape.)

It’s great to hear that you’re doing research. Knowledge is truly power here. I can tell people about the benefits of “resistance training” but they will soon forget. But if they are reading about it all the time, their motivation will skyrocket.

Dash,

Use the power rack as a spotter.

This is a metal “box” that you can set bars in the will stop the weight.

I assume your gym has one of these.

TJM

Thanks Tom, that is a great idea, I should have thought of that!
I guess I was prejudiced that the power rack was for squats only, but hell hardly anyone else uses it (or any of the other free weights) so I might as well bench in it.
what do think I will max at?

All of this CAN be done, with perhaps the biggest challenge is realizing that it will take a lifestyle change.Last July I made the decision that the results were enough to enjoy the process.I began working out honestly, allowing no excuses not to make it to the gym. If a situation came up, I simply regrouped and made time, but did not miss a workout. On July 17, 2002, according to the BOD POD at the gym I weighed 332.8 pounds with a fat weight of 175.3 and a lean weight of 157.5. The percentages 52.7 fat and 47.3 lean.

On Feb 28 of this year my weight was 304.8lbs, with 136.6 lbs of fat and 168.3lbs of muscle. Percentages were 44.8 fat and 55.2 lean.

Since Christmas the pounds have been coming off very slowly, about 2 to 3 per month, where as before I was losing 6 to 10 pounds a month. However, it is still coming off, and I will never go back to my former physically inactive lifestyle because I feel so much better and I have decided to enjoy the process. I look forward to seeing the info coming from T-Mag. Call me Hanginginthere.

Wow.

A) I think it’s fantastic that T-mag is coming out with a fat loss program for the morbidly obese.

B) Too much of the “no matter what I do, I can’t lose weight” attitude is clearly, clearly negative–see the NAAFA site for a truly awful display of this attitude. One of the main problems is that the “I can’t do it” becomes “we can’t do it” and everyone keeps dragging each other down. Stupid metaphor: you don’t have to put lids on crab buckets, because the crabs will all pull each other down when one tries to climb out.

C) This, however, isn’t the attitude that people like Eric are displaying. They are trying to educate themselves and better themselves, but the learning curve is steep. Most T-Men/Vixens have been educating themselves about exercise and nutrition for quite some time. Personally, I’ve been lifting for 10 years, but it hasn’t been until the last 2-3 years that I’ve been following more “optimized” diet and training regimes. It took me that long to figure out what works! The morbidly obese aren’t going to take seven or eight years to figure that out.

D) The problem is that it’s hard to find a training program that is really effective for the morbidly obese. Most likely, they’ll try something that’s almost vegan, cut out all meats, and eat “low-fat” cookies and try to do a bunch of cardio. Because that’s the information that’s out there. Which, while it might work for a little while, is hard-to-impossible to stick to, and will short-circut progress after a while. And then, they’re back to the beginning, but more frustrated.

E) So say, instead, that they stumble upon T-mag, and they find this HUGE amount of information. Even with the FAQ and the search engine, they’re going to dig up a lot of stuff that’s going to be hard to sort through. And it’s just not going to gibe with 90% of the information that they’ve heard other places. If they’re crazy, or smart, or they have a friend who pointed the site out to them, they might actually try some of the stuff, but I bet that most of the people will just surf right on out.

F) People ask for my advice about training (I won’t say “all the time,” but it happens) and most of them want to know how to lose fat. Most of these people are obese. I would love to throw something like T-dawg at them, but it’s a hard curve to go from dietary chaos to all the guidelines (carb timing, more protein than they’ve ever eaten before, eating fat to lose fat, etc.) at once. It would be nice to have something like the bodybuilder’s hierarchy of needs, but with diet only, so that a MO person could start with the bottom of the pyramid and move up. Usually, I’ve started people with journaling (“everything that goes in your mouth goes on the pad”) and then I bump up their protein intake and cut back on carbs. That’s usually good enough for a few weeks.

G) But the MAIN problem that I’ve encountered with helping people that are extremely overfat is that it’s hard to find a workout/dietary combination that’s effective enough that they’ll want to stick to it, without being so hard that it just destroys their desire to work out. I’ve destroyed people’s desires both ways–too easy and too hard–to tell the truth. I think walking might be where it’s at for the MO. It burns more calories the more they weigh, and it gets them moving. It seems to “scale” pretty well. Of course, this has to move on to other work fairly soon.

F) The core/leg strength ideas are very true, as well. I’ve found that the MO can be really strong. If you can tap into this resevoir of strength, they might start viewing their bodies differently. They might start thinking of themselves as strong. Which is a big psychological break, and it might start to snowball from there.

G) All I have to say is that this is a great idea, and I hope that the program is a resounding success. It needs to be a combination of the best dieting ideas, best training ideas, and explain these ideas in a way that a complete newbie can understand. More than anything, every aspect needs to be scaled to a level that the MO can do, while being hard enough to get actual effects. Lastly, it needs to be both long and flexible enough (maybe it will come in parts) so that the MO can take the year, two years or more that it’s likely it’s going to take for them to lose all the weight.

H) And it wouldn’t hurt if Shugart wrote something to really kick people in the ass. I know he’s done that for me more than once.

I) This is really important stuff, and I know that the T-mag team are up to the challenge. People die from obesity every day: 300,000 deaths per year in the US (as compared to 400,000 from tobacco related deaths). This is sad because it’s completely preventable. The weapon that we, the T-nation can use against this? Information. So let’s drop some knowledge bombs and save some lives.

d/c