Enough Muscle Mass to Lose Weight?

Being an endomorph, and someone who returned to the iron after years away from the gym primarily to lose fat, I made gains into my fat loss goals but ended up on a perpetual run of ‘fat loss’ programmes. The result was decent shape but I had neither the six-pack or the 16-inch arms I craved. Yet I was wary of attempting any serious hypertrophy phase for fear of gaining flab, as well as being mindful of the T-Nation mantra of coaches stating you must get lean BEFORE you get big.

This resulted in a type of limbo, where my progress in all departments either wavered slightly or halted. I then posed the following to Chris Shugart, and have included his response below, basically asking when is it safe to move from fat loss to hypertrophy mode. His response helped me decide to try the latter, and six months later I’ve added 16lbs, most of which, I’m confident, is lean mass.

JamesBrawn007 wrote:
Hi Coach

I wondered what your thoughts were regarding how long one should adhere to fat loss programmes before switching to hypertrophy mode.
I realise that may seem akin to how long is a ball of string and that it largely depends on the goals of the individual, etc.

However I wondered whether you had a general bodyfat percentage equation you work to, e.g. get to at least 10% then switch to lean mass programme allowing no more thn 2% fat gain before swtiching back, etc.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

JB

Chris Shugart:

"Yes, very tricky question, and there’s some individual variation to consider.

Personally, I go with the thoughts of Dr. Berardi and Coach Poliquin in that it’s never a good idea to “bulk” if you’re already carrying around a lot of fat. You’ll just add a whole lot more fat and not that much muscle. The ratio just stinks.

I don’t like to toss out body fat percentage numbers much because most people aren’t measuring their body fat correctly anyway, but generally speaking, I think that excess fat should be dropped first before a mass diet is attempted. The muscle:fat gain ratio will be better.

Very roughly speaking, I think someone should be 10-12% or lower in body fat before bulking. How “fat” should they get before cutting again? Well, I don’t think it’s necessary to get fat just to gain muscle. Generally, I go my the mirror rather than the calipers or scale here.

There are just so many psychological components involved, the whole issue is muddled. For example, I know dozens of fat guys who think they’re “oh, about 12% body fat.” They think they look muscular but they just look fat (and are probably more like 20% body fat.) But the moment they diet and lose some of the bulk (not muscle loss, but fat and water weight) they panic because they’re getting “smaller.” Even if it’s just fat loss all they know is they’re not “big” anymore. The fact that they look more muscular is lost on them. So, given all this, even going by the mirror is tricky.

All that said, I guess my summary is 1) Don’t bulk if you already have a gut and love handles and 2) There’s no reason to get fat just to gain muscle. You may not be able to have a shredded 6-pack on a mass phase, but there’s no reason to just eat like crap and get fat either."

[quote]Psicks wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I agree that there are weight set points. That is part of my justification for why I approach this like I do and have since I started. I wouldn’t be this size…if I had never been a “bulky” 220lbs years ago. I then lost a little and hit 220 again, that time much leaner. Then I hit 230lbs. I did the same. The specifics don’t even matter, but I know enough about my own body to know that I had to get it to adjust and accept a heavier weight as normal before I could hit that weight again with more muscle mass (considering muscle as very costly to the body overall).

I’ve heard you mention this before and its something I have definitely come to believe in from my own experience but I rarely hear anyone talk about any sort of time frames, of course I realize that’s going to be personal but still I am very interested to know how much time you think someone should spend at a goal weight before cutting and then working back up to that weight? are we talking weeks, months, years?[/quote]

We would be talking about months at the very least. To throw out some random number would be wrong because there is no strict plan you adhere to. You figure it out on your own and it is very variable. I would, however, state that I doubt anyone is going to hit a new weight and keep most of that new size if they start dieting in less than a month of hitting that new setpoint.

Your body has to feel comfortable at that new weight. It has to feel as if minor episodes of less food don’t require it to drop all of that new muscle quickly in an effort to keep your alive from perceived starvation. That takes time.

[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:
Being an endomorph, and someone who returned to the iron after years away from the gym primarily to lose fat, I made gains into my fat loss goals but ended up on a perpetual run of ‘fat loss’ programmes. The result was decent shape but I had neither the six-pack or the 16-inch arms I craved. Yet I was wary of attempting any serious hypertrophy phase for fear of gaining flab, as well as being mindful of the T-Nation mantra of coaches stating you must get lean BEFORE you get big.

This resulted in a type of limbo, where my progress in all departments either wavered slightly or halted. I then posed the following to Chris Shugart, and have included his response below, basically asking when is it safe to move from fat loss to hypertrophy mode. His response helped me decide to try the latter, and six months later I’ve added 16lbs, most of which, I’m confident, is lean mass.

JamesBrawn007 wrote:
Hi Coach

I wondered what your thoughts were regarding how long one should adhere to fat loss programmes before switching to hypertrophy mode.
I realise that may seem akin to how long is a ball of string and that it largely depends on the goals of the individual, etc.

However I wondered whether you had a general bodyfat percentage equation you work to, e.g. get to at least 10% then switch to lean mass programme allowing no more thn 2% fat gain before swtiching back, etc.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

JB

Chris Shugart:

"Yes, very tricky question, and there’s some individual variation to consider.

Personally, I go with the thoughts of Dr. Berardi and Coach Poliquin in that it’s never a good idea to “bulk” if you’re already carrying around a lot of fat. You’ll just add a whole lot more fat and not that much muscle. The ratio just stinks.

I don’t like to toss out body fat percentage numbers much because most people aren’t measuring their body fat correctly anyway, but generally speaking, I think that excess fat should be dropped first before a mass diet is attempted. The muscle:fat gain ratio will be better.

Very roughly speaking, I think someone should be 10-12% or lower in body fat before bulking. How “fat” should they get before cutting again? Well, I don’t think it’s necessary to get fat just to gain muscle. Generally, I go my the mirror rather than the calipers or scale here.

There are just so many psychological components involved, the whole issue is muddled. For example, I know dozens of fat guys who think they’re “oh, about 12% body fat.” They think they look muscular but they just look fat (and are probably more like 20% body fat.) But the moment they diet and lose some of the bulk (not muscle loss, but fat and water weight) they panic because they’re getting “smaller.” Even if it’s just fat loss all they know is they’re not “big” anymore. The fact that they look more muscular is lost on them. So, given all this, even going by the mirror is tricky.

All that said, I guess my summary is 1) Don’t bulk if you already have a gut and love handles and 2) There’s no reason to get fat just to gain muscle. You may not be able to have a shredded 6-pack on a mass phase, but there’s no reason to just eat like crap and get fat either."
[/quote]

thanks for the reply :smiley:

I’m going to go on a clean diet with excess calories and 1 session of HIIT a week to say if I can put on some mass. I’ll report back with pics a month or two from now.

Aw man, we never got any of that “scientific proof” that all people need to diet down to 12% body fat before they gain any muscle mass.

Oh well.

lmfao the OP is taking the advice of a guy who
started his post with “being an endomorph” oh god

Hello everyone, I’m still alive :D… it’s been almost 2 months since I made this thread!

When I started this thread I was 157 lbs. I am now 167 lbs. Also I no longer want to look like Brad Pitt did in fight club. My new goal is Marky Mark.

Although I feel somewhat bigger and stronger (my lifts have gone up btw) I am not sure if I have actually made considerable progress. My knee injury seems to finally have healed, so I will start squatting. I am thinking of taking progress pics…should 10 lbs make a difference?

10 lbs of muscle? Yes. Every buy 10 pounds of steak? That’s a lot of muscle.

But if any of that 10 pounds is fat, we might not be able to tell.

Just a tip, don’t post any more pics until you’ve reached your desired weight and BF %. It will have a more dramatic before and after effect. That is unless you need advice on where to go from now.

[quote]tw0scoops2 wrote:
10 lbs of muscle? Yes. Every buy 10 pounds of steak? That’s a lot of muscle.

But if any of that 10 pounds is fat, we might not be able to tell.

Just a tip, don’t post any more pics until you’ve reached your desired weight and BF %. It will have a more dramatic before and after effect. That is unless you need advice on where to go from now.[/quote]

Well my jeans still fit fine, but some of my shirts fit better. I am also a bit stronger.

I will take pics at 180 lbs and have you guys judge if I have actually made any progress.

Ok guys it turns out I wasn’t a troll and I really wanted to get muscles. If you guys don’t remember I used to be 155 lbs (can’t use original links cuz i moved pics around my photobucket). I am now 175 lbs. I feel that I gained mostly fat but some of it was muscle. What do you guys think?

Before:


After:


should I get to 180 then cut? i feel fat as fuck

[quote]jbc07665 wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
jbc07665 wrote:
why does brad pitt piss you off?

I noticed this observation posted by another member of this site and it really holds true… Ugh, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be like Brad Pitt, it’s not Brad Pitt dude you’re missing the point… but what is wrong with males of this generation when their first instinct is to aspire to look like Brad Pitt in Fight club and not Brad Pitt in Troy? or Arnold in…shiet any of his movies?

Where did the desire to become strong, big, and lean become replaced by being small and lean?

Speaking from the general population’s point of view, physique’s like Arnorld’s are just too over the top. There’s a reason why the “meathead” stereotype exists…an average joe sees a big guy and says to him/herself “that guy lives in the gym”…also it seems unpractical to be that big. Lean and average muscle mass=healthy.

this is my take at why the general population wants to be lean with average muscle mass…I’ll probably get flamed to hell and banned but whatever.[/quote]

sounds like you just want us to tell you what you want to hear broski.

yo get a jug of that 24 hour miracle diet stuff at wal-mart broseph you will be TONED, CUT, and TAN

Yes get to 180. It’s good you don’t want to look like skinny ass brad pitt or ryan reynolds. In fact, get to 200. Just remember you want to gain MUSCLE not just weight.

[quote]jbc07665 wrote:
Ok guys it turns out I wasn’t a troll and I really wanted to get muscles. If you guys don’t remember I used to be 155 lbs (can’t use original links cuz i moved pics around my photobucket). I am now 175 lbs. I feel that I gained mostly fat but some of it was muscle. What do you guys think?

Before:


After:


should I get to 180 then cut? i feel fat as fuck [/quote]

Have you been lifting, or just playing WoW?

^ plays WoW

(sorry, wrong thread :wink:

man did you guys see in the movie snatch where BP knocked out that suckermotherfucker w/ one uppercut, the music was all like “Gold and Brown da da dee dee…” The big dude was like ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz.

There was a big dude in my gym tonight, like two or three times the size of Prof X, I hit the dude in the back of the neck w/ an olympic bar and he was like ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz.

Should i eat and then rub one out then sleep, rub one out then eat then sleep, which process is more anabolic?

fuk u guys :frowning:

[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:
man did you guys see in the movie snatch where BP knocked out that suckermotherfucker w/ one uppercut, the music was all like “Gold and Brown da da dee dee…” The big dude was like ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz.

There was a big dude in my gym tonight, like two or three times the size of Prof X, I hit the dude in the back of the neck w/ an olympic bar and he was like ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz.

Should i eat and then rub one out then sleep, rub one out then eat then sleep, which process is more anabolic?[/quote]

Rub one out, then eat, then sleep. C’mon, that’s just common knowledge!!! :wink:

[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:
cyruseven75 wrote:
man did you guys see in the movie snatch where BP knocked out that suckermotherfucker w/ one uppercut, the music was all like “Gold and Brown da da dee dee…” The big dude was like ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz.

There was a big dude in my gym tonight, like two or three times the size of Prof X, I hit the dude in the back of the neck w/ an olympic bar and he was like ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz.

Should i eat and then rub one out then sleep, rub one out then eat then sleep, which process is more anabolic?

Rub one out, then eat, then sleep. C’mon, that’s just common knowledge!!! ;-)[/quote]

Don’t forget to wash your hands between steps 1 & 2…

[quote]jbc07665 wrote:
Ok guys it turns out I wasn’t a troll and I really wanted to get muscles. If you guys don’t remember I used to be 155 lbs (can’t use original links cuz i moved pics around my photobucket). I am now 175 lbs. I feel that I gained mostly fat but some of it was muscle. What do you guys think?

Before:


After:


should I get to 180 then cut? i feel fat as fuck [/quote]

What’s your workout routine look like? Diet? If it helps any I don’t think it looks like your bf% increased noticeably, perhaps in the one photo looks like it might have actually gone down slightly, but could be nothing. In the one pose where you are actually flexing, albeit badly, it does look as if you’ve put on a little muscle. Still, for newb gains and such, I would have hoped for more. No one can really help you out until you tell us what you’ve been doing. If I had to guess I would say your workouts are not intense enough and are probably poorly planned.

Just my two cents based on the very limited info given.

At your level of development you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.