Enough Muscle Mass to Lose Weight?

So there is no benefit to the fluid increase inside the muscle cells that takes place when loading creatine? Its a generally held belief that the improved leverage due to the extra intracellular volume allows more space for mucle to move allowing better contraction = more hypertrophy.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
You don’t seem to be reading what I say according to what it actually says.

I am discussing the specific point of LEVERAGE, not of differing weights with same leverage.

Go use, for example, a different plate-loaded machine (not that I am saying machines are better, but as an example) that uses different leverage and thus allows more plates.

Do you get more growth?

Faulty analogy. In your scenario, I am actually lifting LESS weight since more is counter-weighted depending on the machine used and the angle. In the scenario of a bigger lifter lifting more, that person is still doing ALL of the work on the SAME EXERCISE.

No, it isn’t. One given plate-loaded machine absolutely could be designed to give leverage allowing more plates to be used for same force at the handle. You are responding to something different than what I wrote.

As to whether there is any relevance, the reason there is the question is not exact same conditions but different weight, but a claim that if internal mechanical conditions are changed by fat, not by increased developed muscle tension, yielding a leverage difference – a mechanical sort of change, if one may refer to things in the body that way, in the physics sense – that increase achieved from this mechanical effect must improve growth.

My illustration is that mechanical change, such as leverage, is the cause of differing weight lifted, then one cannot assume more growth must necessarily occur.

Mechanical factors making a lift easier don’t necessarily mean growing better.
[/quote]

On the subject you raised of individual variation, which absolutely is a factor:

Another related factor is that the same individual can vary in this regard with time.

Let’s say someone is at 30% bodyfat and has been this way for some time.

I would NOT advise that they try holding themselves close to 12% after dieting down. I don’t know how the body does it, but it’s an observed practical fact that the body acts as if has setpoints in various regards. Having been 30% for a long period of time, when 12% is new the lifter will likely need to eat rather sparingly to keep bodyfat at that relatively low (compared to his accustomed amount) level. And thus he will not make his best gains.

He may very well do best cutting to some value, not necessarily as low as 12%, and then allowing fat regain at a modest rate till he hits as high as perhaps even as much as the 20% figure. A fast regain of fat limits the time in which he can enjoy the muscle-growth benefits and so is not optimal.

He can with time get used to being at lower bodyfat ranges. And when used to it, now no longer will it be the case that he has to eat sparingly just because his bodyfat is down to a percentage such as that.

With time the same person might well be able to eat like a horse at a measured 7% and thus really not have a reason to ever hit even 10%.

But that would have been foolish for him previously; and might always remain foolish for yet another person.

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
So there is no benefit to the fluid increase inside the muscle cells that takes place when loading creatine? Its a generally held belief that the improved leverage due to the extra intracellular volume allows more space for mucle to move allowing better contraction = more hypertrophy.
\

[/quote]

Many of them are very resistant to this concept because if they have to admit that maybe, just maybe some people see better growth over 15% body fat, then they can’t tell everyone they need to diet as soon as they get past 12% body fat.

What I don’t get out of all of this…is how they can ignore all of the really big people who got that way by not being that obsessed about a body fat percentage…and the far fewer people with real size on them who think they must stay below 12% body fat at all times.

I mean, shit, I could see if the people saying this were small and lacking muscle mass…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Mechanical factors making a lift easier don’t necessarily mean growing better.

One assumes this every single day in gyms across the country the moment they ask for a spotter to help them with negatives even though they can’t actually lift the weight themselves through the positive portion of the movement.

That is, unless you are about to claim that this does not aid in strength increases since they had help…
[/quote]

Please, you are still responding to things quite different than what I wrote and which therefore are not counterexamples at all.

E.g., in this case a different load is being placed on the body, rather than potentially the same load on the fibers but a greater load on the barbell due to leverage allowing this. So not the same thing or sort of thing whatsoever.

holy hell no gain a little muscle mass bud

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
On the subject you raised of individual variation, which absolutely is a factor:

Another related factor is that the same individual can vary in this regard with time.

Let’s say someone is at 30% bodyfat and has been this way for some time.

I would NOT advise that they try holding themselves close to 12% after dieting down. I don’t know how the body does it, but it’s an observed practical fact that the body acts as if has setpoints in various regards. Having been 30% for a long period of time, when 12% is new the lifter will likely need to eat rather sparingly to keep bodyfat at that relatively low (compared to his accustomed amount) level. And thus he will not make his best gains.

He may very well do best cutting to some value, not necessarily as low as 12%, and then allowing fat regain at a modest rate till he hits as high as perhaps even as much as the 20% figure. A fast regain of fat limits the time in which he can enjoy the muscle-growth benefits and so is not optimal.

He can with time get used to being at lower bodyfat ranges. And when used to it, now no longer will it be the case that he has to eat sparingly just because his bodyfat is down to a percentage such as that.

With time the same person might well be able to eat like a horse at a measured 7% and thus really not have a reason to ever hit even 10%.

But that would have been foolish for him previously; and might always remain foolish for yet another person.[/quote]

I agree that there are weight set points. That is part of my justification for why I approach this like I do and have since I started. I wouldn’t be this size…if I had never been a “bulky” 220lbs years ago. I then lost a little and hit 220 again, that time much leaner. Then I hit 230lbs. I did the same. The specifics don’t even matter, but I know enough about my own body to know that I had to get it to adjust and accept a heavier weight as normal before I could hit that weight again with more muscle mass (considering muscle as very costly to the body overall).

There is just one kid on these forums who went all the way to 30% body fat, and gained a lot of size along with it. We cannot really say if he did the right thing or now until he diets down and posts picture and bloodwork. No one else here is anywhere near 30%

There are two concepts I was trying to discuss:

  1. Effect of greater Bodyweight/size (muscle AND fat)
  2. Intramuscular fat.

The effect of (1) is to allow more weight to be used in the same movement without deloading prime movers, thus forcing prime movers to contract more strongly/more fbers to be recruited = more hypertrophy.

Not proven but IMO.

The effect of (2) is greater muscular (inner) leverage allowing for stronger contraction (based on current belief with creatine) = more hypertrophy.

Not proven but IMO.

Is this whagt we’re discussing here till?

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
So there is no benefit to the fluid increase inside the muscle cells that takes place when loading creatine? Its a generally held belief that the improved leverage due to the extra intracellular volume allows more space for mucle to move allowing better contraction = more hypertrophy.[/quote]

That there is a generally held belief doesn’t really matter if, when you look at it, evidence for the belief can’t be found.

There can be other reasons for creatine to be of benefit and unless you have evidence that this (what you cite above) is the mechanism of importance, then you don’t have evidence. (True, that was a syllogism, but hopefully illustrative.)

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
tribunaldude wrote:
So there is no benefit to the fluid increase inside the muscle cells that takes place when loading creatine? Its a generally held belief that the improved leverage due to the extra intracellular volume allows more space for mucle to move allowing better contraction = more hypertrophy.

That there is a generally held belief doesn’t really matter if, when you look at it, evidence for the belief can’t be found.

There can be other reasons for creatine to be of benefit and unless you have evidence that this (what you cite above) is the mechanism of importance, then you don’t have evidence. (True, that was a syllogism, but hopefully illustrative.)[/quote]

Well, how can you deny my personal experience? If you are honestly approaching this as if you need proven scientific studies showing this to be the case, I guess we should discontinue this discussion for about 150 years so this current generation can die off completely and actual research on gaining muscle mass for the hell of it can occur in detail for a few decades to your own satisfaction.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I agree that there are weight set points. That is part of my justification for why I approach this like I do and have since I started. I wouldn’t be this size…if I had never been a “bulky” 220lbs years ago. I then lost a little and hit 220 again, that time much leaner. Then I hit 230lbs. I did the same. The specifics don’t even matter, but I know enough about my own body to know that I had to get it to adjust and accept a heavier weight as normal before I could hit that weight again with more muscle mass (considering muscle as very costly to the body overall).[/quote]

Ah, you raise a really good point that very much was needed here.

I agree with the weight set points as well.

Someone who is quite overfat can enjoy the benefit of this effect by cutting fat first. Let’s say, to use the non-impressive example I gave in an earlier post, he is 250 at 30% bf.

Let’s say he cuts to 230 (24% bf) or 220 (20% bf), depending on how time frames work out for him and whether his fat loss results are slowing down or not.

Now his body is used to being 250. I do believe that he will add muscle more easily as a consequence than had he been the 220 or 230 all along.

But, does this mean that had he been 220 or 230 in the first place at the 20 or 24% bf that he should have fattened up first to 30%? No, he could have enjoyed this same benefit by cutting some amount in the first place.

However this effect is more important to more advanced lifters than novices.

How does your personal experience prove or even indicate the mechanism?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
tribunaldude wrote:
So there is no benefit to the fluid increase inside the muscle cells that takes place when loading creatine? Its a generally held belief that the improved leverage due to the extra intracellular volume allows more space for mucle to move allowing better contraction = more hypertrophy.

That there is a generally held belief doesn’t really matter if, when you look at it, evidence for the belief can’t be found.

There can be other reasons for creatine to be of benefit and unless you have evidence that this (what you cite above) is the mechanism of importance, then you don’t have evidence. (True, that was a syllogism, but hopefully illustrative.)

Well, how can you deny my personal experience? If you are honestly approaching this as if you need proven scientific studies showing this to be the case, I guess we should discontinue this discussion for about 150 years so this current generation can die off completely and actual research on gaining muscle mass for the hell of it can occur in detail for a few decades to your own satisfaction.[/quote]

I think no one has any real evidence of ANYTHING here. We all speak from experience, observation and speculation since no one biopsies live muscle fiber before and after creatine loading or whatever…

I do;t see this discussion ending anytime soon if we are to rely on scientific evidence.

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
There is just one kid on these forums who went all the way to 30% body fat, and gained a lot of size along with it. We cannot really say if he did the right thing or now until he diets down and posts picture and bloodwork. No one else here is anywhere near 30%[/quote]

What?

I can’t imagine how you can say that. (Besides how it is that you know the bodyfat of everyone on the forum.)

I am guessing you haven’t done a lot of bodycomps.

You would be surprised how many people don’t look grossly overfat but are 30% or near it. Some do not have potbellies or rolls of fat, huge asses or anything else like that at that percentage.

However this is not a light switch, “off/on” “yes/no” matter. I chose 30% because there’s no doubt that there’s no need to go that high and those that are that high and think they are wise for doing so are most definitely wrong, we can all agree.

The matter is still quite substantially that case at say 25%. How low can you go with the argument? Professor X’s figure of generally not needing to go above 20% is a good one I think, but as he said one must consider the individual. I preferred a clear-cut example that is still within the range of actuality, which the 30% was.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I agree that there are weight set points. That is part of my justification for why I approach this like I do and have since I started. I wouldn’t be this size…if I had never been a “bulky” 220lbs years ago. I then lost a little and hit 220 again, that time much leaner. Then I hit 230lbs. I did the same. The specifics don’t even matter, but I know enough about my own body to know that I had to get it to adjust and accept a heavier weight as normal before I could hit that weight again with more muscle mass (considering muscle as very costly to the body overall).

Ah, you raise a really good point that very much was needed here.

I agree with the weight set points as well.

Someone who is quite overfat can enjoy the benefit of this effect by cutting fat first. Let’s say, to use the non-impressive example I gave in an earlier post, he is 250 at 30% bf.

Let’s say he cuts to 230 (24% bf) or 220 (20% bf), depending on how time frames work out for him and whether his fat loss results are slowing down or not.

Now his body is used to being 250. I do believe that he will add muscle more easily as a consequence than had he been the 220 or 230 all along.

But, does this mean that had he been 220 or 230 in the first place at the 20 or 24% bf that he should have fattened up first to 30%? No, he could have enjoyed this same benefit by cutting some amount in the first place.

However this effect is more important to more advanced lifters than novices.

[/quote]

First, 30% body fat is considered obese by all. Howabout you stop using that as an example because not one person here has EVER claimed that someone needs to get that fat to see progress. We are NOT discussing fat people who don’t exercise or overfat powerlifters who simply don’t care.

Most of these guys are NOT 30% body fat. At the most they may be close to 20% and when this is coming from someone who weighs all of 140lbs you KNOW they need to gain some muscle first before worrying about dieting down.

That shouldn’t even be debated.

Further, I am currently about as “fat” as I get when gaining. Using your examples confuses newbies because none of us are talking about becoming obese to gain muscle mass.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
How does your personal experience prove or even indicate the mechanism?

Professor X wrote:

[/quote]

Again, as if I hadn’t made the point clear, discussing bodybuilding in strict medical journal study aspects only and claiming “lack of scientific proof means it doesn’t happen” is about as foolish as saying no life in any other universes exists because we don’t have proof.

My personal experience is what I base my personal decisions on along with observing others. I rarely observe the “stay under 12%” battalion ever get very big. I don’t need much more “proof”.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
First, 30% body fat is considered obese by all. Howabout you stop using that as an example because not one person here has EVER claimed that someone needs to get that fat to see progress. We are NOT discussing fat people who don’t exercise or overfat powerlifters who simply don’t care.

Most of these guys are NOT 30% body fat. At the most they may be close to 20% and when this is coming from someone who weighs all of 160lbs you KNOW they need to gain some muscle first before worrying about dieting down.

That shouldn’t even be debated.

Further, I am currently about as “fat” as I get when gaining. Using your examples confuses newbies because none of us are talking about becoming obese to gain muscle mass.[/quote]

Please, please stop responding to things I didn’t say.

I never said that anyone here advocated, in giving numbers, going to 30% bodyfat. Never said it.

So why are you responding, yet again, to something I didn’t say?

Others did succeed in reading what I wrote for what I actually said. Or is this a deliberate technique, responding to things I did not write, as if I had said those things? I hope not, that it is simply not having taken the time to actually read what I did write.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Professor X wrote:
First, 30% body fat is considered obese by all. Howabout you stop using that as an example because not one person here has EVER claimed that someone needs to get that fat to see progress. We are NOT discussing fat people who don’t exercise or overfat powerlifters who simply don’t care.

Most of these guys are NOT 30% body fat. At the most they may be close to 20% and when this is coming from someone who weighs all of 160lbs you KNOW they need to gain some muscle first before worrying about dieting down.

That shouldn’t even be debated.

Further, I am currently about as “fat” as I get when gaining. Using your examples confuses newbies because none of us are talking about becoming obese to gain muscle mass.

Please, please stop responding to things I didn’t say.

I never said that anyone here advocated, in giving numbers, going to 30% bodyfat. Never said it.

So why are you responding, yet again, to something I didn’t say?

Others did succeed in reading what I wrote for what I actually said. Or is this a deliberate technique, responding to things I did not write, as if I had said those things? I hope not, that it is simply not having taken the time to actually read what I did write.[/quote]

I am pointing it out because there is no reason on God’s great Earth to use that analogy at all. By using it, it implies to those reading this tripe that someone IS actually recommending someone become THAT fat. Is that clear this time?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

  1. I stated my reasons. So for you to state there is no reason is wrong.

  2. Did you even check the OP’s pics? He could easily be 30% or approaching it. So yes the question of whether someone in that neighborhood of fatness should be advised to not worry about getting fatter yet is indeed relevant.

Sorry, I’m not going to reply further. I have explained myself clearly enough already and reply after reply has shown that I might as well have written nothing, as the replies are constantly to things I did not say or otherwise completely ignore what I said. It gets idiotic repeating oneself indefinitely and dealing indefinitely to objections to what one did not say. Not interested.[/quote]

LOL. There is no need to repeat yourself. I am amazed ANYONE on any level of the fitness arena would tell this guy he needs to diet first or that he needs to be more worried about gaining more fat than gaining more muscle.

I shall “LOL” on into the night.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I agree that there are weight set points. That is part of my justification for why I approach this like I do and have since I started. I wouldn’t be this size…if I had never been a “bulky” 220lbs years ago. I then lost a little and hit 220 again, that time much leaner. Then I hit 230lbs. I did the same. The specifics don’t even matter, but I know enough about my own body to know that I had to get it to adjust and accept a heavier weight as normal before I could hit that weight again with more muscle mass (considering muscle as very costly to the body overall).[/quote]

I’ve heard you mention this before and its something I have definitely come to believe in from my own experience but I rarely hear anyone talk about any sort of time frames, of course I realize that’s going to be personal but still I am very interested to know how much time you think someone should spend at a goal weight before cutting and then working back up to that weight? are we talking weeks, months, years?

Off topic, I wish characters like the OP would stay away from forums like this and stick to playstation and commenting on youtube videos instead. Not everyone is suited for bodybuilding, and someone just has to tell the truth in cases such as this, unpleasant though it may be.
It was my lifelong ambition to wear a leotard and dance to the dance of the sugarplum fairy, but alas it wasn’t to be. My frame is/was/has always been/will always be sure as hell not suited for ballet, would it make sense for my ass to post on a forum devoted to ballet and ask for advice without being told by someone at some point that it ain’t going to happen?