I have some questions on ECA, I’d like the opinions from people who have used it please.
Is this relatively safe, obviously there are associated risks with everything, but is taking this ‘mix’ going to put unnecessary/ dangerous strain on the heart?
Is this necessary? would taking Epehedrine on its own be just as effective? I’ve taken all three separately and ephedrine is by far the strongest IMHO
Does this work effectively as a fat burner?
Thanks
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I have some questions on ECA, I’d like the opinions from people who have used it please.
Is this relatively safe, obviously there are associated risks with everything, but is taking this ‘mix’ going to put unnecessary/ dangerous strain on the heart?
Is this necessary? would taking Epehedrine on its own be just as effective? I’ve taken all three separately and ephedrine is by far the strongest IMHO
Does this work effectively as a fat burner?
Thanks[/quote]
I used this stack some time ago (well before i was interested in AAS) and found it tolerable, although i had trouble sleeping for some time.
This is a ‘snipit’ (it’s big) from the article that got me interested…
The Research Looking at Ephedrine / Caffeine / Aspirin and Weight Loss
In a double blind, placebo controlled study, caffeine alone was found to produce thermogenic and lipolytic effects in humans in a dose dependent manner.13 These researchers found that the thermic effect was significantly correlated to plasma triglyceride levels, plasma lactate concentrations and vascular tone. The authors attribute the increase in lactate, triglycerides and enhanced vascular tone to the increased metabolic rate.
In a study using caffeine and ephedrine researchers found no difference in the total amount of body weight that was lost over 8 weeks.14 However, they did find significant differences in the source of the weight that was lost. Fourteen obese women were treated with a ~1000 kcal diet and either E + C (20mg E + 200mg C) or placebo three times per day for 8 weeks in a double-blind study. The total weight-lost was not different between groups, but the E + C group lost ~10 lbs. more body fat and ~6 pounds less fat-free mass. This is encouraging news for any bodybuilder.
You must bear in mind, however, that these were obese women. Studies have shown that nutrient partitioning is determined in part by your % fat before you diet or before you over eat.15,16 Nevertheless, that is a tremendous effect on fat loss and muscle retention.
Some research has shown that the anti obesity effects of ephedrine are not significant unless caffeine is used in conjunction with ephedrine.17 In fact, most studies exploring the thermogenic effects of ephedrine also look at caffeine as a synergist.
In a randomized, placebo-controlled, double blind study, 180 obese patients were treated by a calorie restricted diet and either an ephedrine/caffeine combination (20mg/200mg), ephedrine (20 mg), caffeine (200 mg) or placebo three times a day for 24 weeks. Average weight loss was significantly greater with the combination than with placebo from week 8 to week 24. Weight loss in both the ephedrine only and the caffeine only groups was similar to that of the placebo group.
The authors conclude that the effect of either caffeine or ephedrine alone is ineffective in inducing significant weight loss.18,19 Not only is it necessary to combine ephedrine and caffeine to elicit a significant fat burning effect, the two compounds exhibit synergistic effects in certain ratios. By comparing different ratios of ephedrine and caffeine, it was found that 20 mg of ephedrine and 200 mg of caffeine exhibited a supra additive or synergistic effect while no other ratio did.
20 This means that ephedrine and caffeine taken in a 1:10 ratio (20 mg ephedrine : 200 mg caffeine) creates effects greater than the sum of the two drugs added together. In other words, 2 + 2 = 5 in this ratio!
So what about aspirin? There has not been as much research done on aspirin in this “stack”. Looking first at animals, chronic administration of aspirin to obese mice had no effect on weight loss. Ephedrine given to these mice increased energy expenditure by 9% and reduced body weight and body fat by 18% and 50%, respectively: obesity however, was reduced but the mice still were not comparable to normal controls.
When given both ephedrine and aspirin, increase in energy expenditure found during treatment with ephedrine alone was doubled, and the obese group lost greater than 75% of body fat, and obesity essentially was reversed.21 The research done on humans has also been somewhat promising. The effect of ephedrine (30 mg) and aspirin (300 mg) on the acute thermogenic response to a liquid meal (250 kcal) was investigated in lean and obese women (n = 10 each group).
Resting metabolic rate (RMR) was measured prior to each of the following treatments: meal only (M), meal plus ephedrine (ME) or meal plus ephedrine and aspirin (MEA). The postprandial rise in metabolic rate, following the MEA treatment compared to the ME, was significantly greater for the obese group but not the lean. It was concluded that aspirin potentiates the stimulatory effect of ephedrine on the thermogenic response to a meal in obese but not lean women.22 One weakness of this study was the small number of subjects.
Nevertheless, these findings are not all that surprising considering the fact that decreased thermic effect of food is often seen in the obese.23 In another study24, a mixture of ephedrine (75-150mg), caffeine (150mg) and aspirin (330mg), in divided premeal doses, were investigated in 24 obese participants in a randomized double blind placebo-controlled trial. Energy intake was not restricted.
Overall weight loss over 8 weeks was 2.2kg for ECA vs. 0.7 kg for placebo. Eight of 13 placebo subjects returned 5 months later and received ECA in an unblinded crossover. After 8 weeks, mean weight loss with ECA was 3.2 kg vs 1.3 kg for placebo. Six subjects continued on ECA for 7 to 26 months. Notice that there is no concern about receptor down regulation or trying useless dosing schedules like “2 weeks on and 2 weeks off”.
Anyway, after 5 months on ECA, average weight loss in five of these was 5.2 kg compared to 0.03 kg gained during 5 months between studies with no intervention. The sixth subject lost 66 kg over 13 months by self-imposed caloric restriction. This sixth subject lost an amazing 150 lbs. By exercising and cutting calories! Can you believe they didnâ??t encourage the other subjects to diet and exercise?
In all studies, no significant changes in heart rate, blood pressure, blood glucose, insulin, and cholesterol levels, and no differences in the frequency of side effects were found. ECA in these participants caused significant weight loss even without caloric restriction. The authors of this study go on to comment that the ECA combination might be more effective with caloric restriction. That kind of conservatism cracks me up!
In one study that really got my attention they compared the effects of ephedrine against the popular prescription drug dexfenfluramine that goes under the brand name Redux.25 In order to compare the efficacy and safety of these two anorectic drugs, 103 patients with 20-80% overweight were included in a 15-week double-blind study in general practice.
Patients were randomized to either 15 mg DF twice daily (n = 53), or 20 mg/200 mg ephedrine/caffeine three times a day (n = 50). Subjects went on a 1200 kcal/day diet during the treatment period. After 15 weeks of treatment, the DF group (n = 43) had lost ~15 +/- 9.46 lbs. and the EC group (n = 38) had lost ~18.3 +/- 11.5 lbs. In the subgroup of patients with BMI > or = 30 kg/m2 (n = 59), the mean weight loss was 7.0 +/- 4.2 kg in the DF group (n = 29) and 9.0 +/- 5.3 kg in the EC group (n = 30), P < 0.05.
Both systolic and diastolic blood pressures were reduced similarly during both treatments. Central nervous system side-effects, especially agitation, were more pronounced in the EC group, whereas gastro-intestinal symptoms were more frequent in the DF group.
The side-effects declined markedly during the first month of treatment in both groups. Not only was the weight loss with ephedrine and caffeine comparable to Redux, it was probably greater! This study did not look at body composition but I bet it would have shown the E/C combination as superior in retaining lean mass.
You may have noticed that most of the studies I have cited have used obese subjects. This is understandable considering it is the obese population that are targeted for drug therapy. It should be noted however, that the thermogenic properties of an ephedrine/caffeine mixture are also demonstrated in lean subjects as well.
26 You should expect increased effectiveness in obese people because of underlying problems with metabolic rate. Anytime you increase the metabolic rate in obese individuals you will see large changes in energy expenditure because the relative increase in metabolic rate is greater than in lean individuals.
In Conclusion
Now let us put all of this together. First, what do we know; Ephedrine stimulates lipolysis by increasing noradrenaline (NA) release from sympathetic nerve terminals. This increase in noradrenaline activates adrenergic receptors which increases cAMP levels in fat cells and muscle cells. This has the effect of increasing lipolysis in fat cells and increasing protein synthesis in muscle tissue.
Negative feedback mechanisms are activated as well, and involve the production of phosphodiesterases, adenosine, and prostaglandins. Caffeine has the ability to inhibit phosphodiesterase activity and interfere with the adenosine receptor.
This combined with its ability to prevent some NA re-uptake12 increase the effectiveness of ephedrine in a synergistic fashion. Aspirin has been shown to increase the effectiveness of ephedrine in some individuals presumably by its actions as a prostaglandin inhibitor.
Maximum effectiveness is achieved when taking 20 mg ephedrine with 200 mg caffeine and 300 mg aspirin three times a day about one half hour before meals. Common side effects are associated with its sympathetic activity namely, anorexia, initial rise in blood pressure, initial tachycardia, slowed GI motility (constipation), insomnia, agitation, anxiety, nervousness and depression- like withdrawal symptoms.
Most all of these symptoms exhibit tachyphylaxis after about 4-6 weeks. Thermogenic activity seems to last upwards of 20 weeks due to its low desensitization properties and beta-3 affinity. About 75% of ephedrineâ??s effects on weight loss in the obese are due to appetite control.
Anyone considering taking ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin should educated themselves first about the potential side effects. Individuals with pre-existing high blood pressure should not use sympathomimetics such as ephedrine.
When taking herbal forms of ephedrine, be sure you understand just how much is in each serving. Be aware that herbal preparations are standardized but you still can not be sure exactly how much you are taking with each capsule.
The future of fat loss for the bodybuilder will not, or should not, focus on appetite alone. It should focus on enhancing lipolysis and overcoming the regulatory mechanisms designed to prevent rapid and substantial fat loss. Ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin are effective but are still limited by inhibitory mechanisms built into our physiology.
Gaining better understanding of the mechanisms involved in lipolysis and gaining funding for appropriate research is critical. The pharmaceutical industry already recognizes the profitability of weight loss agents unfortunately they are focusing at present on appetite control.
Perhaps as these strategies continue to fail they will focus more on body composition instead of just “body weight”. When this happens you can be sure that adrenergic receptors and the second messenger system will be the focus of attention.
Thanks guys, I’m going to give it a go, it was just the asprin part that made me apprehensive.
For the effect (in my personal opinion) any small side effects are well worth it. I am on the tail end of a 6-week stack and the results have been phenomenal. I have bought all the hydroxycut hardcore and redline crap in the past, and it makes me sick to think that I was spending $50 to $60 a bottle for something not nearly as effective as a $12 box of asthma meds and a $3 bottle of no doz.
I’ve dropped 20 pounds in 3 1/2 weeks and feel incredible. I do worry about the side effects, but I’m trusting my body and I don’t remember the last time I felt this good (or was under 220). Years ago, I did have a perscription for Adderal, so my system may be accustomed to some level of amphetamine. I don’t recommend following my doses, but on training days I have gotten to two bronkaids (50 mg) one no doz (200 mg caff) and a baby aspirin, twice a day.
I’ve read a number of times on here that the aspirin isn’t necessary, but I bought the bottle, so I figured I’d keep the “A” with the “EC”. My wife is seeing abs again and we’re both happy about that. For an office worker who constantly has to fight to avoid getting soft(er), I’m feeling pretty fantastic. Plus, after a month of body weight exercises and some backyard crossfit training, along with a ton of “caveman” camping trips (hauling logs, chucking rocks, eating meat with my bare hands) I am very pleased to feel even stronger. Losing 20 pounds and not feeling weaker seems counterintuitive, but the other day I went to the gym with my buddy and I was still able to grab the 115 dumbbells and crank out 12 presses. I also krok rowed the 140’s which I haven’t done before, so that was cool.
Anyway, my opinion. I fuckin love the ECA stack.
I like EC. Never felt the need to add aspirin.
I think it depends on how you tolerate Ephedrine. Some people get really bad jitters and anxiety even at low-moderate doses. Personally, I tolerate it very well. I especially noticed the cognitive effects. I liked taking it before class as it seemed to improve my focus during lectures. The benefits do seem to diminish over time, cycling it is important.
One thing I would like to emphasize is to taper down. Even though I tolerate it well, I stopped taking it a little too abruptly and got some pretty nasty headaches.
It seems everyone compares Clen to Ephedrine, but my experience with Clen was awful. Even at low doses it gave me insane, crippling muscle spasms regardless of how much water or taurine I consumed. Never had any problems like that with Ephedrine.
Thanks guys,
I have tried clenbuterol and must be allergic to the stuff because I broke out in zits days after starting using it. I’ve used GH and test (8iu EOD) and had decent results but nothing dramatic, more therapeutic effects on my skin and overall sense of well being, I haven’t tried BBB’s protocol yet but intend to.
I do have some T3 but have been warned against using it so am holding back for the time being. I’m in the UK so can import ECA or just get the EC no problems, I think I’ll go for the stack and I’ll let you guys know how I get on.
Thanks again for the advise.
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I do have some T3 but have been warned against using it so am holding back for the time being.[/quote]
Why is that? I’m on T3 now and love it. No negative sides that I’ve noticed and fat is really coming off fast. When I come off T3, I plan to start using EC to help eliminate/minimize rebound.
Westpharm’s Thermalean Ephedrine capsules say Ma Huang (Standardized for 8% ephedrine) - 350mg, if I was looking for approx 25mg of ephedrine, how many of these capsules would I take ?
everrrryone do their own research.