Draco's Quest for Peace of Mind

Training Over 35 Lifter
61

[quote]RhunDraco wrote:
My doc wanted to continue me on Androgel, but drop it down to 7.5mg/day (6 pumps). But since I’m losing my job soon, I asked about the possibility of getting on test cyp and HCG (as cyp is cheaper, unsure about HCG).

He didn’t have an issue with cyp, but he is unwilling to prescribe HCG. He didn’t really discuss why and I felt that pushing it was not wise. He did say that he’ll help to find a doc that will prescribe it, but seeing that my job situation is changing for the worse, I dunno if I’ll be able to get in to see another doc. Continuing my insurance with Cobra might be really expensive . . .

He wrote me a script for 1 10ml bottle of 100mg/mL density, to be injected twice a week (50mg per shot). I am self injecting (prolly Mon & Thur). The script included one refill, and according to my math this script should last me 5 months.

Now, when I first started all this TRT stuff, my DHT was pretty low (22 ng/dL, range 30-85), and the Androgel boosted that. From what I’ve read, and from suggestions in other forums, my DHT rising to 60 on 5gm Androgel, and then to 117 on 10mg Androgel is OK and that I want to keep it at the top end of the range, maybe even slighly higher, like it is now.

The suggestion given to me was to do the test cyp shots, but to apply 1 pump of Androgel to my scrotum to boost DHT (same day as injection?) and to get on HCG, if I can find a doc willing to prescribe it.

My nuts have visually shrunk, and I may want kids in the future . . . so HCG sounds like a necessary addition.[/quote]

Friend Draco, consider reading again my 3/10/09 post and the quoted abstract.
If you want kids, there is a very reasonable alternative to present to your doctor.

More comments in last comments in
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_article/tc_talks_1?pageNo=4#2933202

62

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
RhunDraco wrote:
My doc wanted to continue me on Androgel, but drop it down to 7.5mg/day (6 pumps). But since I’m losing my job soon, I asked about the possibility of getting on test cyp and HCG (as cyp is cheaper, unsure about HCG).

He didn’t have an issue with cyp, but he is unwilling to prescribe HCG. He didn’t really discuss why and I felt that pushing it was not wise. He did say that he’ll help to find a doc that will prescribe it, but seeing that my job situation is changing for the worse, I dunno if I’ll be able to get in to see another doc. Continuing my insurance with Cobra might be really expensive . . .

He wrote me a script for 1 10ml bottle of 100mg/mL density, to be injected twice a week (50mg per shot). I am self injecting (prolly Mon & Thur). The script included one refill, and according to my math this script should last me 5 months.

Now, when I first started all this TRT stuff, my DHT was pretty low (22 ng/dL, range 30-85), and the Androgel boosted that. From what I’ve read, and from suggestions in other forums, my DHT rising to 60 on 5gm Androgel, and then to 117 on 10mg Androgel is OK and that I want to keep it at the top end of the range, maybe even slighly higher, like it is now.

The suggestion given to me was to do the test cyp shots, but to apply 1 pump of Androgel to my scrotum to boost DHT (same day as injection?) and to get on HCG, if I can find a doc willing to prescribe it.

My nuts have visually shrunk, and I may want kids in the future . . . so HCG sounds like a necessary addition.

Friend Draco, consider reading again my 3/10/09 post and the quoted abstract.
If you want kids, there is a very reasonable alternative to present to your doctor.

More comments in last comments in
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_article/tc_talks_1?pageNo=4#2933202
[/quote]

Not trying to be a stick in the mud about this, it’s just that there are so many conflicting opinions about what path to take.

63

I did read what you wrote about the two in that other post.

According to one site (paraphrased): “roughly 150mgs of clomid is equal to 20mgs of nolvadex”

Cost-wise, this makes Nolvadex MUCH easier to fit into my soon-to-be-much-reduced budget.

To use the same amount of clomiphene as described in the study would run hundreds of dollars, whereas I would need two bottles of liquid tamoxifen (at around ~$55 each) to get the same amounts, if the ratio mentioned above is accurate.

64

Well, my insurance company rejected the prescription for test cyp, anyway. So, if I want it, I have to pay $55 for one 10ml bottle. That’s higher than what I’ve read other people have gotten it for from CostCo (even though I don’t know what, if any, insurance those peeps had).

65

http://www.costco.com/Pharmacy/frameset.asp?trg=HCFrame.asp&hcban=Banner.asp&hctar=DrugInfo.asp&log=&rxbox=&fromscript=1&qf=&srch=t&Drug=TESTOSTERONE&Article=TESTOSTERONE

I’m growing a little impatient with Costco as well. I look up the price on their website and it looks good, but when I pick up my script, it is much more expensive. The price for a 10ml vial 200mg/ml Watson’s T-cyp on this link is $59, so you are paying about double.

They claim that these are ‘national’ prices so there is some discrepancy in price, but I have picked up scripts that are no less than double or triple the prices listed on their site.

Shit, it would be cheaper to find out where you can get it for the listed price and have them Fedex it. Just doesn’t make sense. Sorry to get off topic Draco, had to vent a little.

66

[quote]RhunDraco wrote:
I did read what you wrote about the two in that other post.

According to one site (paraphrased): “roughly 150mgs of clomid is equal to 20mgs of nolvadex”

Cost-wise, this makes Nolvadex MUCH easier to fit into my soon-to-be-much-reduced budget.

To use the same amount of clomiphene as described in the study would run hundreds of dollars, whereas I would need two bottles of liquid tamoxifen (at around ~$55 each) to get the same amounts, if the ratio mentioned above is accurate.[/quote]

The dose for tamoxifen is 20 mg per day; “equivalence” does not ring for me because the effects in different tissues are different. They are simply different drugs which share a few properties.

The wholesale cost for a month of Tamoxifen is $26; it is usually $15 with insurance. It seems unregulated tamoxifen solution is pricier.

Clomid is simply better researched in the fertility medicine literature, but there is certainly ample evidence that tamoxifen raises LH, FSH, and T in men and that it also can correct oligospermia.

See your doc, work out a plan, get a prescription for a coherent plan.

67

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
RhunDraco wrote:
I did read what you wrote about the two in that other post.

According to one site (paraphrased): “roughly 150mgs of clomid is equal to 20mgs of nolvadex”

Cost-wise, this makes Nolvadex MUCH easier to fit into my soon-to-be-much-reduced budget.

To use the same amount of clomiphene as described in the study would run hundreds of dollars, whereas I would need two bottles of liquid tamoxifen (at around ~$55 each) to get the same amounts, if the ratio mentioned above is accurate.

The dose for tamoxifen is 20 mg per day; “equivalence” does not ring for me because the effects in different tissues are different. They are simply different drugs which share a few properties.

The wholesale cost for a month of Tamoxifen is $26; it is usually $15 with insurance. It seems unregulated tamoxifen solution is pricier.

Clomid is simply better researched in the fertility medicine literature, but there is certainly ample evidence that tamoxifen raises LH, FSH, and T in men and that it also can correct oligospermia.

See your doc, work out a plan, get a prescription for a coherent plan.[/quote]

DrS, would using the exact same protocol as shown in the study be advisable, including the washout period and maintenance time? 2 months seems like a long time . . . I’m feeling tons better on Androgel, even though I’m seeing slight manifestation of the sides; I don’t want to go back to feeling like shit in the middle of this “HPTA Restart.”

In multiple forums I’ve seen a similar protocol mentioned for younger guys, as apparently this restart doesn’t tend to be too successful for older gents. So, it might just work for me.

I’ve been reading a lot about this today, and I’ve seen recommendations for getting more iodine (I eat eggs several times a week, and supposedly fish oils have it and I take Flameout every day), taking DIM and Indole-3 Carbinol.

I’ll just start eating a lot more cruciferous veggies for the i3c and DIM. And after I find a job, I’ll consider adding an i3c and/or DIM supplement.

68

[quote]Caged wrote:
http://www.costco.com/Pharmacy/frameset.asp?trg=HCFrame.asp&hcban=Banner.asp&hctar=DrugInfo.asp&log=&rxbox=&fromscript=1&qf=&srch=t&Drug=TESTOSTERONE&Article=TESTOSTERONE

I’m growing a little impatient with Costco as well. I look up the price on their website and it looks good, but when I pick up my script, it is much more expensive. The price for a 10ml vial 200mg/ml Watson’s T-cyp on this link is $59, so you are paying about double.

They claim that these are ‘national’ prices so there is some discrepancy in price, but I have picked up scripts that are no less than double or triple the prices listed on their site.

Shit, it would be cheaper to find out where you can get it for the listed price and have them Fedex it. Just doesn’t make sense. Sorry to get off topic Draco, had to vent a little.

[/quote]

No need for apologies. You echoed exactly what I was thinking.

69

The soonest I could get another appointment with my Doc is April 29th, the day before my last day at work.

I’m not necessarily going to ask for a prescription for anything, I’m going to discuss the HPTA Restart with him, and really just ask for a series of blood work scripts.

Alternately, I’m going to ask for urine tests from Rhein Consulting (http://www.rheinlabs.com/). This is the company that Dr John Crisler sends his guys too. This may end up being cheaper than trying to get tests directly from LabCorp. I’m going to find out what they charge for people w/o insurance.

I’ll just get the clomiphene (or whatever he wants to go with) myself and start it when I can, if he doesn’t wanna go for it. I believe that he will, though, and at the very least he can help me monitor.

I’m printing out the various studies and will try to get them to him before the appointment so that he has time to look them over.

70

FYI - Full hormone panel from Rhein is $225 including shipping.

71

[quote]Caged wrote:
FYI - Full hormone panel from Rhein is $225 including shipping.[/quote]

Yeah, I called and spoke to them. Very fair price for everything you get. lef.org charges more, even as a member (which I’m not).