Doug Miller Shakes Up The World

Training
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[quote]BWH wrote:
This is getting a bit ridiculous. I know Doug pretty well. I also know that between his last show (I believe 2009 or 2010 in which he apparently competed at 192, and this show, in which he competed at 196, he put on a grand total of 4 lbs LBM. That’s one pound per year.

So while I can’t speak to whether he “used” something prior to 2010 because I didn’t know him then, I am confident that he’s been natural for a long, long time. And there is no one who trains harder. Having seen pics of him as a kid, I also know that he is a genetic freak.

Combine genetic freak, incredibly disciplined diet (as in obsessively perfect 24-7), insane workout intensity (check out some of the vids on youtube if you don’t believe me), smart supplementation (check out Core Nutritionals) and something like a training age of 18 years and this is what you get.

And if you can’t tell the difference between pictures of Doug and pictures of Jay Cutler (who I believe is a similar height but competes at something like 240), I’m not sure what I can say to you.

So I get the questions, because people have to raise this every time a natty guy looks ridiculous, but some of these guys are able to put it all together. Brian Whitacre is another example of this, albeit a slightly smaller version. It takes incredible self-discipline, a ton of natural ability, and hard, hard, work.

But it gets a little rich when internet geniuses claim certainty about people who they’ve never met and know very little about. I’m not even sure what the point is, other than to troll…[/quote]

lol… you haven’t got a clue

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[quote]BWH wrote:

And if you can’t tell the difference between pictures of Doug and pictures of Jay Cutler (who I believe is a similar height but competes at something like 240), I’m not sure what I can say to you.
[/quote]

Is this Jay Cutler or Doug Miller? I JUST CAN’T TELL!!!

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[quote]BWH wrote:
This is getting a bit ridiculous. I know Doug pretty well. I also know that between his last show (I believe 2009 or 2010 in which he apparently competed at 192, and this show, in which he competed at 196, he put on a grand total of 4 lbs LBM. That’s one pound per year.

So while I can’t speak to whether he “used” something prior to 2010 because I didn’t know him then, I am confident that he’s been natural for a long, long time. And there is no one who trains harder. Having seen pics of him as a kid, I also know that he is a genetic freak.

Combine genetic freak, incredibly disciplined diet (as in obsessively perfect 24-7), insane workout intensity (check out some of the vids on youtube if you don’t believe me), smart supplementation (check out Core Nutritionals) and something like a training age of 18 years and this is what you get.

And if you can’t tell the difference between pictures of Doug and pictures of Jay Cutler (who I believe is a similar height but competes at something like 240), I’m not sure what I can say to you.

So I get the questions, because people have to raise this every time a natty guy looks ridiculous, but some of these guys are able to put it all together. Brian Whitacre is another example of this, albeit a slightly smaller version. It takes incredible self-discipline, a ton of natural ability, and hard, hard, work.

But it gets a little rich when internet geniuses claim certainty about people who they’ve never met and know very little about. I’m not even sure what the point is, other than to troll…[/quote]

Lol of course you do of course you do

Also anyone who has used ever reaps the benefits of extra nuclei in their muscles so they will always forever unless they find some way to kill off the nuclei, have extra nuclei and go do some reading on what that does for people. I’d hate to spoil the fun and learning

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[quote]BWH wrote:
This is getting a bit ridiculous. I know Doug pretty well. I also know that between his last show (I believe 2009 or 2010 in which he apparently competed at 192, and this show, in which he competed at 196, he put on a grand total of 4 lbs LBM. That’s one pound per year.

So while I can’t speak to whether he “used” something prior to 2010 because I didn’t know him then, I am confident that he’s been natural for a long, long time. And there is no one who trains harder. Having seen pics of him as a kid, I also know that he is a genetic freak.

Combine genetic freak, incredibly disciplined diet (as in obsessively perfect 24-7), insane workout intensity (check out some of the vids on youtube if you don’t believe me), smart supplementation (check out Core Nutritionals) and something like a training age of 18 years and this is what you get.

And if you can’t tell the difference between pictures of Doug and pictures of Jay Cutler (who I believe is a similar height but competes at something like 240), I’m not sure what I can say to you.

So I get the questions, because people have to raise this every time a natty guy looks ridiculous, but some of these guys are able to put it all together. Brian Whitacre is another example of this, albeit a slightly smaller version. It takes incredible self-discipline, a ton of natural ability, and hard, hard, work.

But it gets a little rich when internet geniuses claim certainty about people who they’ve never met and know very little about. I’m not even sure what the point is, other than to troll…[/quote]

Since you claim to know him, I’m genuinely curious. Why are you so confident that he’s not just telling you he’s not using, then going home and pinning? Do you live with him? Seriously. He has plenty of motivation to lie to you and anyone else. He’d be an idiot to tell anyone he uses if he’s going to compete on a natural stage.

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Flipcollar, thanks for the question–no, I don’t know for sure and can’t prove it for the reasons you identify.

But my reaction to Doug is similar to Stu and pwolves. Great guy, very knowledgeable, dialed in on intense, incredibly hard training and perfect-to-the-point-of-obsessive nutrition and supplementation. Plus ridiculous genetics in terms of muscle bellies and insertion points.

And he doesn’t have that “swollen” look pwolves talked about either in the offseason or while he’s been dieting. In person he’s looked almost gaunt over the past three months or so (I think he’s been dieting down since May). That’s pretty similar to my other friends who are natties when training for a show.

Does my personal experience persuade anyone on this board? Obviously not - you all are free to draw your own conclusions from afar. And I’m not naive about the reality of PED’s, even among “natties.” It is always a question with the top guys. But even if I don’t persuade you, I did want to defend someone who is the hardest-working, most self-disciplined guy I have ever seen in the gym. I’ll stick with “natural until proven otherwise.”

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[quote]BWH wrote:
I did want to defend someone who is the hardest-working, most self-disciplined guy I have ever seen in the gym.
[/quote]
See that’s one of the problems with you people. You seem to be the ones equating steroids with taking an easy way out, not us. Whether or not we believe he’s natural has no bearing on how hard working or disciplined we believe he is. I don’t know what you feel like you have to defend him from.

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lmao. The difference between him and jay cutler is megadosed slin and GH not natty vs gear. it blows my mind that some people are so clueless.

Also the “puffy look”… um what? Guys on gear get much harder and drier than natties, unless the effects of mast halo and tren have pulled a complete 180.

srs smh dude.

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[quote]BWH wrote:
Flipcollar, thanks for the question–no, I don’t know for sure and can’t prove it for the reasons you identify.

But my reaction to Doug is similar to Stu and pwolves. Great guy, very knowledgeable, dialed in on intense, incredibly hard training and perfect-to-the-point-of-obsessive nutrition and supplementation. Plus ridiculous genetics in terms of muscle bellies and insertion points.

And he doesn’t have that “swollen” look pwolves talked about either in the offseason or while he’s been dieting. In person he’s looked almost gaunt over the past three months or so (I think he’s been dieting down since May). That’s pretty similar to my other friends who are natties when training for a show.

Does my personal experience persuade anyone on this board? Obviously not - you all are free to draw your own conclusions from afar. And I’m not naive about the reality of PED’s, even among “natties.” It is always a question with the top guys. But even if I don’t persuade you, I did want to defend someone who is the hardest-working, most self-disciplined guy I have ever seen in the gym. I’ll stick with “natural until proven otherwise.”

[/quote]

This is basically what it came down to with me and Pwolves I think. Our standards for believing someone is on gear are just plain different. I don’t need absolute proof to be convinced - I’ve seen enough to make up my own mind.

I do want to address a couple other things you said though.

No one is questioning his work ethic. Steroid argument aside, you don’t look like Miller without dedicating EVERYTHING you have to your physique. The guy has put in countless hours in the gym and the kitchen, and it absolutely shows. I would never dream of taking anything away from that. He’s paid his dues, without a doubt.

The ‘swollen’ look you’re talking about doesn’t apply to all steroid users either. Look at Aaron Clark, for example. He’s a high level Olympia competitor, and he looks fantastic in the offseason. John Meadows is another guy who never looks bad. I’m just pointing out that the swollen look is not universal among bodybuilders who use plenty of gear.

The biggest problem I have with believing Doug Miller is natural is that we’ve already acknowledged that he’s competing against steroid users. We’ve all acknowledged that there is plenty of cheating in the federation he competes in. It seems highly unlikely that the best natural bodybuilder in the world is legitimately natural, when there are plenty of steroid-assisted bodybuilders competing against him who can’t attain what he has. That would be like assuming the only NFL players who juice are the ones who aren’t very good. It makes no sense to me.

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Natty or not, he looks awesome, that back double bi picture is awesome, one of the best i’ve seen in a long time

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[quote]BWH wrote:
This is getting a bit ridiculous. I know Doug pretty well. I also know that between his last show (I believe 2009 or 2010 in which he apparently competed at 192, and this show, in which he competed at 196, he put on a grand total of 4 lbs LBM. That’s one pound per year.

So while I can’t speak to whether he “used” something prior to 2010 because I didn’t know him then, I am confident that he’s been natural for a long, long time. And there is no one who trains harder. Having seen pics of him as a kid, I also know that he is a genetic freak.

Combine genetic freak, incredibly disciplined diet (as in obsessively perfect 24-7), insane workout intensity (check out some of the vids on youtube if you don’t believe me), smart supplementation (check out Core Nutritionals) and something like a training age of 18 years and this is what you get.

And if you can’t tell the difference between pictures of Doug and pictures of Jay Cutler (who I believe is a similar height but competes at something like 240), I’m not sure what I can say to you.

So I get the questions, because people have to raise this every time a natty guy looks ridiculous, but some of these guys are able to put it all together. Brian Whitacre is another example of this, albeit a slightly smaller version. It takes incredible self-discipline, a ton of natural ability, and hard, hard, work.

But it gets a little rich when internet geniuses claim certainty about people who they’ve never met and know very little about. I’m not even sure what the point is, other than to troll…[/quote]

Yep, train hard, eat right, take your vitamins and say your prayers…the good ole American way of doing things! That drug stuff is for the Ruskies!
/Salute

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[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]BWH wrote:
I did want to defend someone who is the hardest-working, most self-disciplined guy I have ever seen in the gym.
[/quote]
See that’s one of the problems with you people. You seem to be the ones equating steroids with taking an easy way out, not us. Whether or not we believe he’s natural has no bearing on how hard working or disciplined we believe he is. I don’t know what you feel like you have to defend him from.[/quote]

Oh right, “we people.” Wow. I didn’t know it was “you” versus “us.” Glad we got that clear.

Obviously, I was attempting to defend him against the accusation of lying and cheating by pointing to other factors that could support his level of development. I mean, read the thread.

Also, I never said steroids is an “easy way out.” Don’t know where that came from. I would think that a “natural” who used PED’s and then lied about it to win a natural competition would be in the same category as an MLB player or NFL player who used PED’s and then lied about it. It’s not a matter of an “easy way out,” but rather that in both cases the person’s honesty and competitive integrity would be at stake. An IFBB pro who competes in an untested contest, on the other hand, would be in a different category in that he wouldn’t be violating the integrity of the competition in which he is engaged. Apples and oranges.

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Natty ppl need to stop assuming every competing assisted guy is using the same damn things… :expressionless:

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Bring out the doug miller!!! I will prove his nattyness

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[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I believe Doug Miller is natty, but I have my doubts about that jacked pwolves17 guy.[/quote]

I laughed :slight_smile:

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[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]pwolves17 wrote:
It is a matter of respect…you’re essentially accusing him of being a pathological liar. Natural bb’ing is one of the biggest parts of this guy’s life, so if he’s using drugs, he’s living a lie. That’s a pretty big claim to publicly make against someone you don’t know. I’m not naive, I know there are plenty of natural pros cheating the system. But I won’t publicly call someone out who hasn’t failed a test [/quote]

I think you need a couple pysch courses and a couple good books on the human brain. They is an amazing number of pathological liars. Bbers happen to be a large category of them mainly Becuase they have been forced to be. Hollywood stars. And doctors are also nice and high on that list

The fact you see steriods as a bad thing and using them meaning less respect given for competing speaks yet more volumes to how naive you are. Sorry your dreams are being crushed and your hero isn’t who he said but that is how it is please just move on with your life. <3[/quote]

I appreciate the lesson on psychology Ryan. But yes, if someone uses steroids under the guise of being a natural competitor, that is a “bad thing” as you put it. I have no problem with steroids, but that’s why there’s drug tested and non tested federations. Obviously there are guys cheating in the IFPA. Also, Doug isn’t my hero or favorite natural pro. That would be Sam Okunola

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[quote]zraw wrote:
Bring out the doug miller!!! I will prove his nattyness[/quote]

Lol well played Julien!

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[quote]BWH wrote:
Oh right, “we people.” Wow. I didn’t know it was “you” versus “us.” Glad we got that clear.
[/quote]

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[quote]zraw wrote:
Natty ppl need to stop assuming every competing assisted guy is using the same damn things… :|[/quote]

What ever. All PEDs make you look puffed up and no way can you obtain a dryness of nattyness

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[quote]pwolves17 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]pwolves17 wrote:
It is a matter of respect…you’re essentially accusing him of being a pathological liar. Natural bb’ing is one of the biggest parts of this guy’s life, so if he’s using drugs, he’s living a lie. That’s a pretty big claim to publicly make against someone you don’t know. I’m not naive, I know there are plenty of natural pros cheating the system. But I won’t publicly call someone out who hasn’t failed a test [/quote]

I think you need a couple pysch courses and a couple good books on the human brain. They is an amazing number of pathological liars. Bbers happen to be a large category of them mainly Becuase they have been forced to be. Hollywood stars. And doctors are also nice and high on that list

The fact you see steriods as a bad thing and using them meaning less respect given for competing speaks yet more volumes to how naive you are. Sorry your dreams are being crushed and your hero isn’t who he said but that is how it is please just move on with your life. <3[/quote]

I appreciate the lesson on psychology Ryan. But yes, if someone uses steroids under the guise of being a natural competitor, that is a “bad thing” as you put it. I have no problem with steroids, but that’s why there’s drug tested and non tested federations. Obviously there are guys cheating in the IFPA. Also, Doug isn’t my hero or favorite natural pro. That would be Sam Okunola[/quote]

Always here to help those who truly care

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[quote]zraw wrote:
Natty ppl need to stop assuming every competing assisted guy is using the same damn things… :|[/quote]

Who was doing that?

Anyway, I personally don’t care if the guy is geared up or not. It’s just the constant ignorance that gets me. I used to be pretty damn ignorant too. Myosin’s first post in this thread sums it up I think. Eventually we all learn.