Double Tap Marine!

[quote]orion wrote:

What happens if the US takes a hit?

All the world and especially China take a hit too…

All I see are bubbles, connected with bubbles, financed with invented money or promises to pay that will never be held…

This is seriously going to hurt. I give it about 10-15 years. Should our social systems collaps at the same time, which is likely during a depression things will tend to get interesting.[/quote]

Hey Guys,

Orion is an ardent defender of free enterprise. He’s no socialist or anything remotely like that.

He’s also on the right track with our debt issues. We can’t continue to spend more than we earn. Someday, the rest of the world will want their loans back — look for rising taxes and inflation. But if the lenders see us inflating, they’ll drop our T-Bills and such like a hot potato. So either we inflate and get rising interest rates (to keep lenders happy) or higher taxes. Either one will hurt us.

Someday, we’ll have another Great Depression out of all this, then a military takeover.

"2.1 Elliott Waves

My search for the second great depression began with Prechter and his theory of Elliott Waves, which are clearly identifiable patterns that describe how groups of people behave. They reveal that mass psychology swings from pessimism to optimism and back in a natural sequence. The waves are most clearly seen and measured in financial markets. The patterns are fractals, occurring at all levels of scale, from minutes all the way to years, decades and centuries, rising and falling according to natural rules. From Prechter’s analysis, we are just completing a pattern of Grand Supercycle degree, which in short means that after decades of prosperity, we are on the brink of an economic setback that will be larger than the Great Depression (which was a pullback of only Supercycle degree)."

[quote]orion wrote:
I still do not get why lowering taxes while increasing the deficit is a good idea.

There should be a point were increased tax revenue offsets the increased interest payed on that public debt but I do not think that this was the idea behind all of this, it was more like not letting the average American feel what this war actually costs.[/quote]

Lowering taxes and cutting spending or cutting the rate of spending growth is what we need.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
It’s staggering that people actually believe Saddam had no WMD’s. It’s like 20 people watching someone kill someone else with a gun (a gun registered in his name), but then not being able to find the gun. I GUARANTEE that if we did nothing, we would have been hit again even harder. Then all these pansy-assed haters would be screaming “Why didn’t the president do anything”.

[/quote]

Especially when you consider that 400 WMD’s were found and ignored by the MSM and even Bush’s team.

There were WMD’s in Iraq. not the quantities claimed and the programs to deveop them were broken but WMD’s did exist.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Grimnuruk wrote:

Grim,

Please take a peek at the saddam tapes.

Add to that the known 500 munitions found interspersed within convential arms.

saddam was lying and in league with our most hated enemies.

This guy had to go. Further, he had to be made an example of. See deterrance and libya.

I’ve written extensively on this subject and looking up my past posts can flush this out if you care to look up my name.

You seem like a pretty open-minded guy, so I will give you the courtesy of discussion.

Now, if your name was bradley/pox/tme/jlesk…

THEY HAVE CEREBRAL ARREST!!!

JeffR[/quote]

Interesting. I’ll take a look. My focus of “study” lately has been on the actual running of the war/quagmire and its effects on dealing with other threats: Iran, N Korea, etc. I can say that I agree with you right off the bat that he was lying,dangerous, in league with our enemies, should be made an example of, etc. My concern in this is the actual hard facts we had vs the truthiness that was presented to the public

[quote]derek wrote:
Case Closed
From the November 24, 2003 issue: The U.S. government’s secret memo detailing cooperation between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.
by Stephen F. Hayes
11/24/2003, Volume 009, Issue 11

Hmmmmmmmmmmm…
[/quote]

Ok, read through it and read through some of the criticisms of it. From what I’ve seen so far, we have a leaked memo detailing unconfirmed data that Hayes then uses to build his case. Two senior intelligence officials provided this description of it. Do you happen to have anything that wraps up the final appraisal of this in the last three years (I’m looking for both sides of course, pro and con)
Thanks

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
PGJ wrote:
It’s staggering that people actually believe Saddam had no WMD’s. It’s like 20 people watching someone kill someone else with a gun (a gun registered in his name), but then not being able to find the gun. I GUARANTEE that if we did nothing, we would have been hit again even harder. Then all these pansy-assed haters would be screaming “Why didn’t the president do anything”.

Especially when you consider that 400 WMD’s were found and ignored by the MSM and even Bush’s team.

There were WMD’s in Iraq. not the quantities claimed and the programs to deveop them were broken but WMD’s did exist. [/quote]

To PGJ:

Of course he had them when he used them, the point in question is if he still had them after the first Gulf War.

To Zap:

You do know that the argument back then was something like 9-11,WMD?s, mushroom, clouds over Manhattan.

So yes, he had some old shells, containing rests of WMD?s, that might have harmed thousands of Americans, if they had stood in line to thorougly lick them clean.

But that was not how this war was sold.

[quote]orion wrote:

But that was not how this war was sold.[/quote]

“I fully understand that the intelligence was wrong, and I’m just as disappointed as everybody else is,” Mr. Bush said.

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
orion wrote:

But that was not how this war was sold.

“I fully understand that the intelligence was wrong, and I’m just as disappointed as everybody else is,” Mr. Bush said.

[/quote]

The we are down to the questions if we believe in GWBs honesty or dont.

I, personally, don`t…

And, given the question whether to trust a politician or not, um…

[quote]orion wrote:

So yes, he had some old shells, containing rests of WMD?s, that might have harmed thousands of Americans, if they had stood in line to thorougly lick them clean.

But that was not how this war was sold.[/quote]

I understand that but to say there were no WMD’s is a falsehood.

And WMD’s were one of only 20 selling points although it was the most hyped.

Well since this thread has veered so far off topic…this post from Jules Crittenden’s blog iss kind of topical to the discussion at hand and interesting.

Thursday, February 15, 2007

Iraq and Global Warming [BRD]
Well, one of the posts has (surprisingly enough) veered off into questions about intelligence, warfighting, and preemption. And, predictably enough, the conversation, in large part, reflects the fact that people have worn a lot of their comfortable, faded, broken-in arguments to the fight. In general, there?s nothing wrong with that, but I?ve been thinking a bit over the last few days about stuff in general and have come to a couple of conclusions, the most important of which is this:

The Iraq War debate is, at its heart, equivalent to the arguments over Global Warming.

Both the doctrine of preemption and the reduction of carbon emissions are predicated on the assessment that in both cases, a false positive is of much, much greater consequence than a false negative, such that the downside potential of a false positive in either scenario is far too high to accept and completely overwhelms the consequences of a false negative.

Granted, this evaluation doesn?t place great emphasis on true positives and true negatives, but that?s beside the point. In both instances, we?re using incredibly imprecise and unreliable forecasting methods, for which we can get little substantive supporting proof. Even worse, it?s not the weaknesses of the methodologies themselves, but rather the looming specter of the ?unknown unknowns? that compels close examination of the costs of incorrect outcomes. This is because the expectation value of a risk is the likelyhood of the outcome times the consequence of the outcome, and with high variability in this case, the value of the true positives and true negatives becomes much less significant, given the way that policy debate is conducted in the US.

Now, before we get off on the particular merits of Iraq and Kyoto, let?s take a quick look at the consequences of cognitive (particularly confirmation and disconfirmation) biases. Without getting into the hairy details of the mechanics of the biases, let us just simply note that nobody ever has as strong a grasp of political issues as the strength of their opinions would lead them to believe. The vast majority of people have a strong command of a specific issue area, but their outlook outside of their focus tends to be more heavily informed by the projection of their own narrative framework projected onto a given set of facts. In particular, this is manifested through cognitive bias behaviors.

At this point, many folks are going to note ?Hah! The other guys, who are axiomatically wrong about this-that-and-the-other-thing have fallen prey to some sort of cognitive bias!?

Not so fast.

What it tends to mean most often is that the positions drawn by both sides are often only loosely related to the actual issue under contention, but are simply a showcase for a preexisting set of conclusions. In practice, the more detailed circumstances surrounding a contentious topic are almost always more complex and greyer than generally imagined.

In the case of Iraq, what it all, essentially, boils down to is that a number of reasons were given for war with Iraq (what Cynn so delightfully refers to in a similar case as ?mixed messages and rhetorical moonwalking?, or as Kerry put it ?nuance?). These reasons were pretty broad and covered as many bases as possible. However, since the debate today centers around WMD and proliferation, I?m going to restrict myself to that family of considerations.

Was Iraq in violation of the letter of the law regarding WMD? Absolutely.

Was he substantially in violation of the spirit of the law regarding WMD? Tough call.

Was there any way to know, short of war, whether or not the technical violation was simply the only a trace of a substantive violation that he managed to conceal? None at all.

If you all go in the wayback machine, the crux of the debate in early 2003 was whether or not the trigger for implementation of UN 1441 was a technical or substantive violation of the resolution. (Of course, I?m not touching the other two-thirds of the argumentation of the Iraq War, despite the fact that those who have argued most loudly about Bush?s Manichean worldview and lack of nuance seem to be remarkably simplistic on causation here.)

Internationally, everyone pretty much agreed that a substantive violation merited a massive military response, while a purely technical violation (particularly one that was not in bad faith) did not require a full military response.

But, here?s the kicker. Arms negotiations and disarmament are essentially based on the principle of ?trust, but verify? ? the exercise here is for the party that has given up their capability must demonstrate to the inspecting party a good faith effort on their part to remove or neutralize the capability in question. If the disarming party is hiding something, then that is basically a failure to disarm according to the agreement ? whether or not they actually have retained the capability. It sounds odd, but it is essentially the only way to tackle the problem of ?I swear to Allah, I really did give up my nuclear program, and I really, really, mean it this time. Really!?

This then puts us in a rather odd situation. Hussein, after the 1991 Gulf War was commanded to get rid of all of his WMD capacity. And the west had verified, to its satisfaction that the WMD programs, in particular, the nuclear program had been gotten rid of. However, once a Hussein son-in-law skipped the country and dropped the dime on Hussein, the west discovered that there was a huge capability that had not been turned over and had been concealed.

So folks went around and inspected and verified and did all that kind of stuff, but Iraq couldn?t at any point, ever bring themselves to come completely clean. If we fast forward to 1998, the west was still certain he had something up his sleeve. If we then go all the way to the UN Clusters Working Document, Iraq still hadn?t come completely clean. They were still found in violation of UN resolutions.

So, the only way on earth that Iraq could have been in compliance with requirements is if they went off, scrapped all their kit, lied about it, didn?t tell anyone, and destroyed all the records. This, as it turns out, seems to be pretty close to what happened ? although it will be another couple decades before the rest of that story plays out.

But, to turn this around, did it make any sense, whatsoever, in any way shape or form, to go to war over a clerical mistake? Clearly not.

But to turn it a bit further, we had no way of verifying it to be a clerical error, given the behavior of the actors at the time, short of war.

So the question of WMD really boils down to how one chooses to manage the consequences of a false negative versus the downside potential of a false positive.

Kind of like the Global Warming debate.

So, now that we?ve looked at two cases of managing downside risk potential for false positives and false negatives, does anyone have anything productive to suggest about Iran, other than doing nothing and watching from the sidelines as the worst case scenario unfolds?

Posted by Bravo Romeo Delta @ 06:30 AM

[quote]hedo wrote:
Well since this thread has veered so far off topic…this post from Jules Crittenden’s blog iss kind of topical to the discussion at hand and interesting.

Posted by Bravo Romeo Delta @ 06:30 AM
[/quote]

An excellent post. Thank you. I’m going to go over it again when I have time. We have certainly gotten off topic here, but I think we should keep in mind that human conversations are by their very nature cyclic between broad and focused. That is basically what we are having, a conversation, even if the medium we are using has artifical constraints such as “topics” or “threads.”

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Wreckless wrote:

Naah, I probably would have deserted.

Your soul deserted you long before you would ever desert from any military.

You wouldn’t fight to protect your family, your friends, or your country. How absolutely pathetic…

[/quote]

You’re wrong again. I wouldn’t fight a war that could have been avoided. I wouldn’t be fooled by a warmonger that lied to me to get his war going.

It’s not like I have asthma or something to hide behind. So I have to use my brain you know.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The question is not how I knew there we no WMDs. I WAS RIGHT ! ! !

The question is, how did you know there were any? Self-delusions of Godhood? Wouldn’t doubt it.

YOU WERE WRONG ! ! !

But I’ll answer your question none the less.

There was Blickx, there was the embargo, there where international observers on one hand.

And there was this born again retard on the other hand.

You went with the retard.

About your cough…
What? you don’t like personal attacks. Gee, when you live in a glass house and all that…

If 3 intelligence agencies (Russian, German, and Israeli) told you that your enemy was gathering weapons to strike you, and you had just had 3000 killed in Brussels, you would claim its all a conspiracy and your president a retard.

Oh, and are you referring to the inspectors who were kicked out before way before the war? The 18 UN resolutions Saddam violated?

You are simply pathetic. Fuck off.

[/quote]

I would use my brain. I know, you don’t have that luxury, so it must feel like I’m cheating.

The Iraqi economy is in shambles, there’s no way Sadam can afford a wmd progam.
The UN inspectors have discovered some nasty stuff years ago, and have dismantled it. They haven’t found anythin recently.
Most of these wmd have to be refreshed regularly or they’ll simply degrade. Iraq no longer has the money nor the infrastructure. And it would be impossible to fool all the UN inspectors.

The embargo is working.

Your own intelligence agencies won’t deliver the intell you need for your political goals, so you have your own yes men fabricate it for you.

How would you react? Would you insist on attacking Iraq? Would you damage the UN and the coalition?

I really don’t understand why you’re still defending Bush’s choice. History has prooved him wrong.

And finally something concrete about the UN inspectors. Are you saying there were no UN inspectors in Iraq? Is that what you’re saying.

You might want to look that up before answering.
Also, you might want to look up how many UN resolutions Israel violated.

THEN tell me who looks pathetic.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
The question is not how I knew there we no WMDs. I WAS RIGHT ! ! !

The question is, how did you know there were any? Self-delusions of Godhood? Wouldn’t doubt it.

YOU WERE WRONG ! ! !

But I’ll answer your question none the less.

There was Blickx, there was the embargo, there where international observers on one hand.

And there was this born again retard on the other hand.

You went with the retard.

About your cough…
What? you don’t like personal attacks. Gee, when you live in a glass house and all that…

If 3 intelligence agencies (Russian, German, and Israeli) told you that your enemy was gathering weapons to strike you, and you had just had 3000 killed in Brussels, you would claim its all a conspiracy and your president a retard.

Oh, and are you referring to the inspectors who were kicked out before way before the war? The 18 UN resolutions Saddam violated?

You are simply pathetic. Fuck off.

It’s staggering that people actually believe Saddam had no WMD’s. It’s like 20 people watching someone kill someone else with a gun (a gun registered in his name), but then not being able to find the gun. I GUARANTEE that if we did nothing, we would have been hit again even harder. Then all these pansy-assed haters would be screaming “Why didn’t the president do anything”.

[/quote]

So you still claim he had WMD prior to the attack.

Wow.

How’s the weather on your planet?

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Good old reckless,

I admire your ability to be wrong on every issue. Your consistency is inspiring.

Oh, saddam had wmd and we’ve found some. He didn’t declare what he had.

Now back to your regularly scheduled trolling.

JeffR

[/quote]

Hey Effr0, how’s the weather on your planet?

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
JeffR wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Orion can do that…Wreckless can’t stop frothing at the mouth over his Bush-hatred.

Who gives a fuck really. They are not americans and have no real stake in this conversation other than to berate. They have no real militaries to speak of in their countires so they pick on ours.

Plus, very, very soon, the US will be number 4 economically after China, India and the EU, not necessarily in that order.

Don?t worry we will listen or maybe we wont, because truth is really all about power isnt it?

Keep us posted on that.

Is this what keep’s old europe amused these days.

Hedo,

I refuse to believe that orion speaks for all Austrians. There have to be people who can understand the threat that iran poses. There have to be people who remember the Marshall plan and are grateful.

I cannot believe that all of the Austrians are as mentally bankrupt.

JeffR

Sorry Effr0, that dog won’t hunt.

You can fool a marine once, but not twice.

If you want to invade Iran, I’m pretty sure Bush, Effr0 and HH will have to lead the charge.

reckless,

If the three of us lead the charge, we’ll stop over in belgium and kick you around as a warm up. We’ll steal some waffles, throw you in a ditch, and raise a ruckus.

After iran is subjugated, we’ll be back to your country to take some free land.

We’ll rename belgium, Bush East. Then we’ll resign from the e.u. and form an alliance with the U.S.

I can see the headlines now, Bush East, with twelve guys, takes over france with a lightning campaign lasting 20 minutes.

JeffR
[/quote]

BRING IT ON ! ! !

[quote]derek wrote:
orion wrote:
People will eventually want their money back. How is that supposed to happen?

I`ll take any answer that does not include “Washington will finally show some fiscal responsibility…”…

Bush certainly tries to give our money back. Our current economy proves this out.

I don’t always agree with Bush but I’m all for his tax cuts.

The President’s Agenda for Tax Relief

 "These are the basic ideas that guide my tax policy: lower income taxes for all, with the greatest help for those most in need. Everyone who pays income taxes benefits ? while the highest percentage tax cuts go to the lowest income Americans. I believe this is a formula for continuing the prosperity we've enjoyed, but also expanding it in ways we have yet to discover. It is an economics of inclusion. It is the agenda of a government that knows its limits and shows its heart."  

? President George W. Bush

Executive Summary

The President has proposed a bold and fair tax relief plan that will reduce the inequities of the current tax code and help ensure that America remains prosperous. This tax relief plan promotes the values that make the American economy second to none – access to the middle class, family, equal opportunity, and the entrepreneurial spirit. This plan will reduce taxes for everyone who pays income taxes, and it will encourage enterprise by lowering marginal tax rates.

Under the President?s tax relief plan, the typical American family of four will be able to keep at least $1,600 more of their own money.

[/quote]

It’s not your money to spend. Hey derek, you’re spending your kids money. And they’re kids money. They’ll have to work hard to pay of the debt you’ll leave them. And they’ll have nothing to show for it.

But hey, Bush is one swell guy isn’t he. I bet the twins won’t bend over backwards to pay off the deficit though.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
PGJ wrote:
It’s staggering that people actually believe Saddam had no WMD’s. It’s like 20 people watching someone kill someone else with a gun (a gun registered in his name), but then not being able to find the gun. I GUARANTEE that if we did nothing, we would have been hit again even harder. Then all these pansy-assed haters would be screaming “Why didn’t the president do anything”.

Especially when you consider that 400 WMD’s were found and ignored by the MSM and even Bush’s team.

There were WMD’s in Iraq. not the quantities claimed and the programs to deveop them were broken but WMD’s did exist. [/quote]

So you guys invaded over some left over ammo. You promised “imminent threat” and a “45 hour mush room cloud”.

And you gave us stale ammo? I’m not impressed.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:

So you guys invaded over some left over ammo. You promised “imminent threat” and a “45 hour mush room cloud”.

And you gave us stale ammo? I’m not impressed.[/quote]

Did you skip over this?

Case Closed
From the November 24, 2003 issue: The U.S. government’s secret memo detailing cooperation between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.
by Stephen F. Hayes
11/24/2003, Volume 009, Issue 11

OSAMA BIN LADEN and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda–perhaps even for Mohamed Atta–according to a top secret U.S. government memorandum

According to the memo–which lays out the intelligence in 50 numbered points–Iraq-al Qaeda contacts began in 1990 and continued through mid-March 2003, days before the Iraq War began. Most of the numbered passages contain straight, fact-based intelligence reporting, which some cases includes an evaluation of the credibility of the source. This reporting is often followed by commentary and analysis.

The relationship began shortly before the first Gulf War. According to reporting in the memo, bin Laden sent “emissaries to Jordan in 1990 to meet with Iraqi government officials.” At some unspecified point in 1991, according to a CIA analysis, “Iraq sought Sudan’s assistance to establish links to al Qaeda.” The outreach went in both directions. According to 1993 CIA reporting cited in the memo, “bin Laden wanted to expand his organization’s capabilities through ties with Iraq.”

The primary go-between throughout these early stages was Sudanese strongman Hassan al-Turabi, a leader of the al Qaeda-affiliated National Islamic Front. Numerous sources have confirmed this. One defector reported that “al-Turabi was instrumental in arranging the Iraqi-al Qaeda relationship. The defector said Iraq sought al Qaeda influence through its connections with Afghanistan, to facilitate the transshipment of proscribed weapons and equipment to Iraq. In return, Iraq provided al Qaeda with training and instructors.”

One such confirmation came in a postwar interview with one of Saddam Hussein’s henchmen. As the memo details:

  1. According to a May 2003 debriefing of a senior Iraqi intelligence officer, Iraqi intelligence established a highly secretive relationship with Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and later with al Qaeda. The first meeting in 1992 between the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) and al Qaeda was brokered by al-Turabi. Former IIS deputy director Faruq Hijazi and senior al Qaeda leader [Ayman al] Zawahiri were at the meeting–the first of several between 1992 and 1995 in Sudan. Additional meetings between Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda were held in Pakistan.

Members of al Qaeda would sometimes visit Baghdad where they would meet the Iraqi intelligence chief in a safe house. The report claimed that Saddam insisted the relationship with al Qaeda be kept secret. After 9-11, the source said Saddam made a personnel change in the IIS for fear the relationship would come under scrutiny from foreign probes.

PLease answer… did you skip this or ignore it because it flies in the face of what you want to believe?

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
It’s not your money to spend. Hey derek, you’re spending your kids money. And they’re kids money. They’ll have to work hard to pay of the debt you’ll leave them. And they’ll have nothing to show for it.

But hey, Bush is one swell guy isn’t he. I bet the twins won’t bend over backwards to pay off the deficit though.
[/quote]

How is my income not my money to spend?

Paying down the deficit can happen if we have the brains to lower taxes and the balls to eliminate some of the enormous drain on our economy such as welfare reform (drop only the lazy bastards), eliminate the incentives for illegal aliens to come here (and give them a map to your house), quit paying for illegal’s healthcare and spend that money on bus fare. Eliminating some of the more grotesque spending like the National Endowment for the Arts.