Don Alessi's Response to Meltdown on Low Carb Diets

Training Bodybuilding
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joel I have respected most of your opinions on other threads yet I find some of your theories regarding ‘TONE’ to have several flaws at least from my view point - as such I will list them and would appreciate your feedback.

  1. in regards to a muscles resting tension -I would like you to elaborate on what is causing the increased tension you speak of because it is not due to neurologivcal factors associated with heavy training, because even though higher tensions occur during load a higher tension is not going to happen during rest unless you think that either a) motor neurones for the muscle or the muscle spindles gamma efferent fibres are in some way causing mild contraction of the muscle continously or b)some contraction is occuring in the muscle itself through calcium remaining in the muscle or the crossbridge is not hydrolysing back to its normal position somehow from the heavy training.
  2. you state that heavy training is the result of the increased tension due to a denser muscle because of extra contractile proteins (which I can accept as a means of increasing hardness of a muscle), yet heavy training below 6 reps usually just increases neurological factors such as fibre recruitment, intra and intermuscular syncranisation and inceased rate coding. as such increases in contractile proteins would be minimal and higher reps between 6 and 10 have been shown to increase more contractile proteins than higher load/lower rep training leading to more denser muscles (meltdomn uses sets of 10 reps)

  3. during a ‘cutting’ phase the main aim is to
    reduce body fat while retaining lean tissue, I would argue any form of weight training using reps below 15 would accomplish this, yet higher reps would lead to both higher energy expenditure due to a higher work output and a more favourable endocrine response in terms of lypolysis than what lower reps would.
  4. you talk about looking falt due to glycogen depletion during a cutting phase yet most individuals only care what the eventual outcome is and glycogen could be replaced at the end of a cutting phase by just having a decent carb up period, and I would again argue that higher rep training would lead to better glycogen synthesis than lower rep training.
    overall I have no problem using a heavy load program while cutting, but to aid cutting some of the weights sessions could be interspersed with meltdown style training to get the best of both worlds.
42

Thank you for all of the great information. I just completed 2 weeks of Fat to Fire with decent results. I started 5x5 training on Monday and I plan on lifting on M-W-F. I will be doing 30 min of cardio on my off days. I would like to know if adding 20-30 min of mild cardio after lifting would be overkill? I’m currently at 171.5#/14.5% bf. Any other suggestions to help fat loss would be greatly appreciated.

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Muscle tone is the residual tension in a relaxed muscle; alterations in muscle tone can be achieved through intense contractions of skeletal muscle…just ask Arnold. Plenty of volume to “fill out,” and then heavy, low reps to get “hard.” He neglected to do this his first Olympia, looked soft, and lost. Once he “got with the program” and started training heavy pre-contest, he never lost an Olympia. Why do bodybuilders spend hours in front of the mirrors intensly contracting their muscles pre-contest? Just because? No. They look harder; every single body builder does it…I don’t think it’s just hype. Have you ever seen someone with extremely low levels of body fat, but still they look like shit (i.e. very, very soft and puffy)? I have; quite often I might add. As far as all the science behind it; it is something I will definitely look into (and yes, I do believe that it has something to do with the muscles remaining in a partial state of contraction), but when you have thousands and thousands of individuals speaking from experience, you just can’t argue.

You state that lower reps would lead to minimal hypertrophy of the contractile proteins, and the 6-10 range would be ideal to promote muslce density. Quite the opposite; higher reps encourage growth of the mitochondria, cappalaries, sarcoplasmic reticulum, etc. But noticable hypertrophy of the contractile proteins is only noticed with heavy training lower than 6 reps (I spoke nothing of hyperplasia and/or extra contractile proteins; so I'm not really sure of what you are referring to there). If you want to look dense, you got to train heavy.

Yes, higher volume will promote greater fat loss, but for the UM-teenth time; there are so many other ways to speed up fat loss. Why in the hell would you take your weight training session to achieve this goal? You lose out on all the benefits of heavy training...

Please go back and read points three and four.

You will most likely lose strength by conducting a hypertrophy workout on a cutting cycle (that means when you resume hypertrophy training, you will be moving the same weight, and quite possibly even less weight than you were on your previous bulking cycle). With the 5x5 program, I not only retain strength on a cutting cycle, but I add poundage to most of my lifts.

With heavy, low rep training, you will likely put on some LBM because your body is not used to the low reps (shock #1). When you resume hypertrophy training, you will be primed for some nice gains because you had a substantial break from high volume, high rep work (shock #2). You get none of this by sticking to high reps while cutting...therefore, the benefit of burning a few additional calories doesn't even come close to the sacrifices you will be making. And for god sakes; sprint! You'll burn a hell of alot more calories that way than you would through any weigh training session.

I apologize for sounded frustrated.

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Hi guys,

I don’t mean to flame, but I have a problem with Don Alessi’s programs. It looks to me like the programs he designes are not real world tested on many people. As a result we have something like HMB works well in theory but not so well in practice. I recently did his reactive strength cycle, got stuck at the stage two, the poundages simply wouldn’t go up, but it sure looked nice on paper. Meltdown makes me feel overtrained, I tend to agree with John Berardi about limiting the eccentric portion of the lifts. Quote from John: ‘The third focus of the strength component should be to limit muscle-protein degradation caused by the exercise. Since the client will be on a slightly hypocaloric diet, recovery from intense exercise will certainly be impaired. Therefore highly damaging exercise bouts will
lead to muscle wasting. In order to prevent excessive damage, the eccentric portion of the lift should be minimized.’ Doesn’t meltdown II emphasise eccentric action? I wonder how many clients of Don succesfully tried meltdown II before he posted it here. I agree with the guy who said that 5X5 is better when dieting. For me personally in the past powerlifter type programs worked best when trying to lose fat.

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Joel I agree with quite a few of your points, but I still feel ignoring an avenue for means of getting ripped is self defeating, and that is why I said that interspersing both types may be the best option. in regards to a muscles resting tension due to partial contraction- I have to disagree with you, after a long discussion with my sports science lecturer at uni (who practices what he preaches)I got the impression that a muscle would have to be damaged/faulty to not hydrolyse back into a relaxed state, yet the denser muscle would have stiffer (therefore more tense) properties. I’m going to agree to disagree on the point of what rep ranges causing additional contractile proteins (myosin -actin)to form.
In regards to bodybuilders practising there posing, as a competitive natural bodybuilder myself I would say this has two effects a)performing the pose correctly and tensing all the muscles simultaneously- which is harder than it looks and b)just like when you do an exercise regurlarly you will be able to recruit more fibres within a single contraction and therefore during a pose (when contracting) the muscle will be harder, yet I do not feel this would have long term effects on resting tension, although it may effect the tension of the muscle for a few minutes due to residule calcium ions remaining in the fibres and causing small amounts of contractions - this would not last to long though because excess calcium would lead to protease breaking down the contractile proteins.
As for having low levels of body fat and still looking soft I would say its either water retention (although Im sure you dont mean this)or as I said in a previous post - higher levels of intra and exrtacellular lipids which would reduce the density of a muscle.

46

Peter to Jason and Heb,

May I summarise what I think the position is in this interesting debate over muscle tone?

  1. Your observation is that resting muscle tension may be increased.

  2. The imput we have had from exercise scientists both British lifter’s conversations with his university professor and my enquiry of Craig Ballantyne of McMaster University is that the phenomenon you describe does not occur.

  3. You have not provided any scientific evidence in support of your view and have not explained the mechanism by which increased residual tension arises. British Lifter’s explanation of why the process would not occur seems convincing.

  4. The observation of bodybuilders pre competition and drawing conclusions therefrom is dubious in view of widespread drug use.

  5. The fact that some low fat individuals may have low resting tension says nothing about the possibility of increasing that level of tension.

I await further contributions with interest. In view of Heb’s reference to Pavel Tsatsouline in support of your position I will put up a post on his board to see what he says.

Peter

47

Jason made no comments referring to resting tension…that was me. I will do my best to get the scientific explanation that you requested; although I think it’s a shame when individuals such as yourself refuse to believe something just because you don’t have the scientific facts to prove it; especially when many individuals have experience the phenomena first hand.

Resting muscle tension aside; there are countless other reasons to go with 5x5 or another strength training routine while dieting as opposed to higher rep, higher volume work...I have stated them time and time again; and I am not going to go through them anymore.

Individuals can choose whatever kind of training they want to do; I want to help, but when people refuse to accept the facts, that's where I step back. At least now individuals cannot claim "ignorance." The information is available to make an intellegent, informed choice; however, I realize that not everyone will make this choice.

48

Joel-apologies first of all to you and indeed Jason whose name I inadvertently wrote instead of yours.

I am sorry that if this has come across as something of a personal challenge to what you believe is obvious except to idiots like myself but the fact is that there is an opposite view to the one you have put forward held by respectable authorities. British Lifter has argued persuasively in support of that view and with respect I do not think that you have done enough to dismiss his view or that of a number of exercise physiologists. Can I add T.C to that list?

I am more than happy to concede that at the end of the day you may prove to be right. I am only interested in establishing what is the truth not in defending any personal prejudices I may hold. I hope you will feel able to continue to contribute to this exchange in that spirit.

Peter

49

Okay so far I’m agreeing with British Lifter.

Now lets say our diet is tuned in. What training program does everyone believe will help loose body fat the best(low carb but not in ketosis)? I mean if it depletes glycogen too much who cares you can restore it in no time. As for muscle tension I think a large part of this is genetic. I mean my muscles for the most part are harder than the average person and some when I flex them are extremely hard. The lateral head of my triceps is almost inhumanly hard. I have noticed no change in muscle tone since I started training. Even when I went below 5 reps. I have a few more points. One what about extremely high rep training? I read that(lets hope I remembered this right) reps in the range of 100 or so can cause your muscles to store fat as a triglyceride. This fat being taken from subcutaneous sources. Which would cause the apperance of a lower body fat. Now I must admit this sounds a bit querky to me. Next point why not have a combination of training. ie: Start your workout with some low sets and finish with higher reps which you should be stronger for due to increased neural excitation from the lower rep sets. Then you will have that higher resting muscle tension(if this is even happening) and get more gh release from the high latic acid of the high rep sets. Am I nuts? I think the inclusion of squats and deads and similar whole body exercises are paramount to the success of such a program. Lastly I think that what Jason said in a earlier post about not believing something without scientific evidence to be a shame…well I don’t think so…no offense Jason you seem like a great guy. But I think science is supremely important in us debunking exercise myths and getting us on to correct training protocols? Don’t you agree? :slight_smile:

Please excuse all spelling, syntax and grammatical errors…it late me tired. Sleepy time good night. :slight_smile:

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joel I hope I have not sounded as if I dont totally believe that training can improve tension of a muscle, I can agree that many individuals have experienced this phenomena, the reason I continually debate the subject is I want to understand why - understanding a given subject in my opinion leads to better aplication and development of training theories. the only thing I disagreed with you on is the neurological aspect or whether it was a mechanical consequence of training. If most of us relied on anacdotal evidence rather scientific studies, people would still believe in spot reduction and considering training and nutrition in the real world has so many variables a confounding factor inevitably appears

51

For the last and final time, my name is “Joel Marion” not Jason. Jason Norcross is my friend, but we are not the same person, nor do we share identical views on every single subject.

52

I just wanted to clarify my views about the type of lifting and exercise that one should employ during cutting cycles.

Low/no carb diets (100g Carb or less) - heavy strength based exercise and low/moderate intensity cardio (this is also assuming a fairly significant negative energy balance)

Moderate carb restriction (at least 200g Carb) - any type of lifting you desire although I still lean towards a strength based program, moderate/higher intensity cardio, anaerobic intervals

That is my general template. Of course the volume and intensity of every style of exercise is totally based on the restrictiveness of the diet.

Now, although I'm not sure I said the "to not believe something due to lack of scientific evidence is a shame" statement, I still believe this to a fair extent. There are 3 things to consider when looking for "truth" in the exercise world.

1) Does it make sense on paper? Is there a logical scientific reason or mechanism that could explain a phenomenon.

2) Does it work in the gym? The words and experiences of thousands of lifters MUST be considered.

3) Is there research to prove it? This is often the last piece of the puzzle to get implemented and it may not be the deciding piece. Some research is done very well, while other stuff is done quite poorly.

No conclusions on this topic. I lean towards heavy strength based lifting on cutting cycles but I don't think it is the only way. There are too many other individual factors that decide what the best style of lifting for one person is at any point in time.

Hope that helps! I'm off to work.

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Thanks for clarifying your views. :slight_smile:

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In the process of getting some scientific information on alterations in resting tension.

55

bump.

56

Hellllloooo T-Freques. This is one of the best threads up on the black 'n yellow in a long while. Actually I’ve been trying to plan out what type of training to do for my upcomming post-MAG-10/EDT cycle. As much as I thought of EDT, if I see another high volume scheme anytime soon I’ll be nowhere near enthralled. Hell, my body would probably reject Meltdown right about now and thrust a kidney out my mouth. I planned to do a 5x5 program after a week of recovery training, but now I’m wondering how long I should stay on 5x5 for. Should I do 4 weeks or would 6 be decent if I switched up the exercises? Thanks. Lata.

MBE: “Inked, pierced, 'n fierce since 1906.”

-Eric

57

6 weeks is fine; after six you could even repeat the cycle provided that you switched the split, exercises, tempo, etc.

BTW- I find your "closing remarks" very entertaining.

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Nyce. THanks T-nutz. Joel, thanks from the compliment, bro. I like to consider myself the Co-Unofficial Courtroom Jester of T-mag along w/ Char-dawg and a few other nutcases here. What kind of 5x5 exercise protocol would you guys suggest? Is there an actual 5x5 program protocol or is it just select-an-exercise and go with it? Thanks. Lata.

MBE: “The Future of Hybrid Hijinx since 2088.”

-Eric

59

Here’s the routine that I prescribed for Patrica…I think it’s pretty darn good if you ask me :slight_smile: (It’s based on a 3 day split):

Monday- Arms and Chest

A1) Cambered Bar Incline Press

A2) Weighted Dips

B1) Power Rack Tricep Lockouts

B2) Seated EZ-bar Bicep Curl w/ flexed wrist

Wednesday- (Legs, Back Extensors, Shoulders)

A1) Sumo Squat

A2) Sumo Deadlift

B1) Dumbell Clean and Press

B2) Calve Press in the Leg Press Machine w/ a 3 sec. pause at the top of the movement

Friday- (Lats, Traps, Forearms)

A1) Wide-Grip pullups

A2) Explosive Barbell Shrugs w/ hip thrust

B1) Seated Wrist Curls

B2) Seated Reverse Grip Wrist Curls

As you can see, the compound movements allow for a great deal of volume for the various muscle groups while only doing 4 exercises per workout. Just look at all the ham, glute, low back, and back extensor work in the wednesday workout.

Oh yeah, casually alternate between exercises A1 and A2, etc. There is no reason to time rest periods, but at the same time do not superset...perform A1, rest a minute or two, perform A2, rest a minute or two, etc.

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AND, as of today, we have gone through the Friday and Sunday workouts of the program. And they are thoroughly kicking our respected asses. :wink: Especially today!!!

Joel has every right to be proud of himself.....!