Does Your GF/Wife Have Male Friends?

Off Topic
121

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Biskui wrote:

[quote]nephorm wrote:

There is always going to be some guy somewhere - work, school, hobbies, whatever - that she can form an emotional bond with when times get rough. That’s no reason to even try to ban having opposite sex friends. I don’t even see how this works. You have no right, as a boyfriend, to require your girlfriend to give up her friends. If you feel that a certain friend is taking advantage or is inappropriate, you can voice your concern. If a woman I were dating required me to stop contacting friends arbitrarily, I would drop her, instead. If you then get married, is this part of the vows? “To have and to hold, in sickness and health, giving up all friends of the opposite sex.”

You can’t protect yourself from everything. This is the relationship equivalent of removing monkey-bars from playgrounds. If you can’t trust a woman to be faithful to you, then don’t marry her.[/quote]

You just said everything.

[/quote]

It isn’t that you get to force or must give up exclusive friends when you get married. It’s that, in a healthy marriage, you shouldn’t need or desire them.

If your wife needs to spend time with male friends on the phone, the need is the problem, not the act of talking.[/quote]

Not sure I agree with this. I don’t have any exclusive “friends”, but I have exclusive atmospheres that my wife is not a part of. T-Nation is one of them.

They’re not a huge part of my life, but my wife is not a part of them. [/quote]

I mentioned this earlier. My wife is invited into everything I do, she doesn�¢??t always join me though. Would you try to stop her from reading what you write on here? Or would you be offended if she logged on and posted too? What I mean by exclusive is intentional separation. Having a relationship that you don�¢??t want your spouse to be a part of is bad, but they don�¢??t have to be a part of everything.[/quote]

I’m not sure if I can articulate, but I think it’s perfectly natural to want some time away from the wife every once in a while. These boards provide that for me, without me actually getting away.

I don’t necessarily care if she reads what I write, but I’m not sure how I’d feel if she popped up and started posting here, haha.

[/quote]

I think even in an online situation it matters about the make-up of the group. I’m a regular participant on an almost exclusively female message board. I wouldn’t dream of defending that to my boyfriend and would wonder about the lack of trust if he should want to oversee or check up on my posting with a bunch of women, though I’m not secretive about it and will occasionally talk about stuff from there.

On the other hand, my boyfriend has said he’s “not sure about” my posting here. Said he doesn’t know if he likes me messing around with a bunch of bodybuilders, In response to which I of course went all Prof X and screamed “VERY FEW IF ANY OF THEM ARE MAKING ANY REAL PROGRESS.” :slight_smile: I know he likes MY lifting and he also appreciates my vast knowledge of porn and sexin’ music and such.

Still, because the majority of posters here are men I would understand if he wanted to see what I was doing. I’m also prepared to accept “I don’t like it” and stop posting at TN, since I’m not sure I would be at all okay with the shoe being on the other foot. He’s known about it all for the almost two years we’ve been seeing each other, though, and hasn’t ever made any more than the jokey-sounding “I’m not sure I like” noises, so I would imagine he trusts that I’m not going to attempt to obtain one of you. I suppose I should ask, maybe.

122

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Biskui wrote:

[quote]nephorm wrote:

There is always going to be some guy somewhere - work, school, hobbies, whatever - that she can form an emotional bond with when times get rough. That’s no reason to even try to ban having opposite sex friends. I don’t even see how this works. You have no right, as a boyfriend, to require your girlfriend to give up her friends. If you feel that a certain friend is taking advantage or is inappropriate, you can voice your concern. If a woman I were dating required me to stop contacting friends arbitrarily, I would drop her, instead. If you then get married, is this part of the vows? “To have and to hold, in sickness and health, giving up all friends of the opposite sex.”

You can’t protect yourself from everything. This is the relationship equivalent of removing monkey-bars from playgrounds. If you can’t trust a woman to be faithful to you, then don’t marry her.[/quote]

You just said everything.

[/quote]

It isn’t that you get to force or must give up exclusive friends when you get married. It’s that, in a healthy marriage, you shouldn’t need or desire them.

If your wife needs to spend time with male friends on the phone, the need is the problem, not the act of talking.[/quote]

Not sure I agree with this. I don’t have any exclusive “friends”, but I have exclusive atmospheres that my wife is not a part of. T-Nation is one of them.

They’re not a huge part of my life, but my wife is not a part of them. [/quote]

I mentioned this earlier. My wife is invited into everything I do, she doesn�?�¢??t always join me though. Would you try to stop her from reading what you write on here? Or would you be offended if she logged on and posted too? What I mean by exclusive is intentional separation. Having a relationship that you don�?�¢??t want your spouse to be a part of is bad, but they don�?�¢??t have to be a part of everything.[/quote]

I’m not sure if I can articulate, but I think it’s perfectly natural to want some time away from the wife every once in a while. These boards provide that for me, without me actually getting away.

I don’t necessarily care if she reads what I write, but I’m not sure how I’d feel if she popped up and started posting here, haha.

[/quote]

I think even in an online situation it matters about the make-up of the group. I’m a regular participant on an almost exclusively female message board. I wouldn’t dream of defending that to my boyfriend and would wonder about the lack of trust if he should want to oversee or check up on my posting with a bunch of women, though I’m not secretive about it and will occasionally talk about stuff from there.

On the other hand, my boyfriend has said he’s “not sure about” my posting here. Said he doesn’t know if he likes me messing around with a bunch of bodybuilders, In response to which I of course went all Prof X and screamed “VERY FEW IF ANY OF THEM ARE MAKING ANY REAL PROGRESS.” :slight_smile: I know he likes MY lifting and he also appreciates my vast knowledge of porn and sexin’ music and such.

Still, because the majority of posters here are men I would understand if he wanted to see what I was doing. I’m also prepared to accept “I don’t like it” and stop posting at TN, since I’m not sure I would be at all okay with the shoe being on the other foot. He’s known about it all for the almost two years we’ve been seeing each other, though, and hasn’t ever made any more than the jokey-sounding “I’m not sure I like” noises, so I would imagine he trusts that I’m not going to attempt to obtain one of you. I suppose I should ask, maybe.

[/quote]

your PX reference made me laugh in real life

123

I have been with my wife for almost 11 years and we have been married for almost 6. I choose not to have female friends in the context intended in this discussion. My wife does not have male friends either. I did not “forbid” her from having male friends (lol), it is simply the way it is. We never even really talked about it.

I feel this is a pretty good plan in the interest of staying married. I trust my wife completely and have no intention of being unfaithful myself. However the line of reasoning that says “if you have a good relationship you have nothing to worry about and if you don’t it’s over anyway” is basically true but a little over simplistic IMO.

A relationship that lasts any significant length of time is likely to be somewhat cyclical in my experience. There are going to be times when you are just going to be more into each other than others. During these low points in your relationship, especially if they coincide with periods where your personal happiness is on a bit of an ebb, people can often feel somewhat unappreciated at home. This is not the end of the world and it usually passes if you work through it. However, if during this period you have a chance encounter where you confide in or even just hang out with your “friend” of the opposite sex, certain things may begin to happen.

Especially if one or both parties is harbouring an underlying attraction for the other, which is very likely IMO. Suddenly here’s this person who “sees” you, who laughs at your jokes and listens intently to the anecdotes your spouse has heard 1000 times. They see you at your charming best, without the farts and morning breath and razor stubble left in the sink. You, seeing yourself through their eyes start to feel good, powerful, attractive etc without even realizing how badly you needed to feel that way.

At the same time, this person is displaying none of the irritating and/or unattractive qualities your spouse seems to have “developed” over the years together. Nobody is fun and sexy 24/7 for 10 years or more. Sorry, wife.

In short, it’s all shiny, new, exciting and perfectly innocent. After all you’re both mature, secure adults. You’re perfectly capable of having a platonic relationship based on mutual respect and admiration. It’s only natural that you start to, maybe unconsciously, look for excuses to spend more time together. BC’s addiction metaphor is somewhat apt here, IMO. What begins as an seemingly harmless and totally justifiable temporary escape from the perceived drudgery of your present circumstances is something you look to repeat. It feels good to get a little high, and it’s cool, you’re an adult. You can handle it. Then the hooks start to slip in and you don’t even feel it. You start to want it more intensely, and more often. Your justifications naturally stretch to accommodate your desires. Your perceptions and behaviour begins to change without your even realizing it. Your pet peeves about your spouse become more apparent. Over time everything about your spouse begins to appear somehow dull and prosaic in contrast to the charms of your “friend”.

Naturally your spouse will pick up on this change in your attitude. They will likely either become more aloof, resentful and critical or they will realize that their relationship is in jeopardy and they will become insecure, jealous, possessive, overly solicitous etc. which will cause them to become even less attractive and appealing. Soon what began as a perfectly natural and innocuous low in your relationship has escalated to a full blown crisis and, if you have gone far enough down that road, true infidelity and dissolution of the union is almost a forgone conclusion. You may even look back in the aftermath and wonder when you became a passenger in the whole process. It’s sort of like the relationship equivalent of the law of unintended consequences. To imagine that you and/or your relationship is immune to this because you are so secure, evolved, trustworthy, mature etc. is a mistake IMO, and one which I choose to avoid. Your mileage may vary.

124

[quote]batman730 wrote:
I have been with my wife for almost 11 years and we have been married for almost 6. I choose not to have female friends in the context intended in this discussion. My wife does not have male friends either. I did not “forbid” her from having male friends (lol), it is simply the way it is. We never even really talked about it.

I feel this is a pretty good plan in the interest of staying married. I trust my wife completely and have no intention of being unfaithful myself. However the line of reasoning that says “if you have a good relationship you have nothing to worry about and if you don’t it’s over anyway” is basically true but a little over simplistic IMO.

A relationship that lasts any significant length of time is likely to be somewhat cyclical in my experience. There are going to be times when you are just going to be more into each other than others. During these low points in your relationship, especially if they coincide with periods where your personal happiness is on a bit of an ebb, people can often feel somewhat unappreciated at home. This is not the end of the world and it usually passes if you work through it. However, if during this period you have a chance encounter where you confide in or even just hang out with your “friend” of the opposite sex, certain things may begin to happen.

Especially if one or both parties is harbouring an underlying attraction for the other, which is very likely IMO. Suddenly here’s this person who “sees” you, who laughs at your jokes and listens intently to the anecdotes your spouse has heard 1000 times. They see you at your charming best, without the farts and morning breath and razor stubble left in the sink. You, seeing yourself through their eyes start to feel good, powerful, attractive etc without even realizing how badly you needed to feel that way.

At the same time, this person is displaying none of the irritating and/or unattractive qualities your spouse seems to have “developed” over the years together. Nobody is fun and sexy 24/7 for 10 years or more. Sorry, wife.

In short, it’s all shiny, new, exciting and perfectly innocent. After all you’re both mature, secure adults. You’re perfectly capable of having a platonic relationship based on mutual respect and admiration. It’s only natural that you start to, maybe unconsciously, look for excuses to spend more time together. BC’s addiction metaphor is somewhat apt here, IMO. What begins as an seemingly harmless and totally justifiable temporary escape from the perceived drudgery of your present circumstances is something you look to repeat. It feels good to get a little high, and it’s cool, you’re an adult. You can handle it. Then the hooks start to slip in and you don’t even feel it. You start to want it more intensely, and more often. Your justifications naturally stretch to accommodate your desires. Your perceptions and behaviour begins to change without your even realizing it. Your pet peeves about your spouse become more apparent. Over time everything about your spouse begins to appear somehow dull and prosaic in contrast to the charms of your “friend”.

Naturally your spouse will pick up on this change in your attitude. They will likely either become more aloof, resentful and critical or they will realize that their relationship is in jeopardy and they will become insecure, jealous, possessive, overly solicitous etc. which will cause them to become even less attractive and appealing. Soon what began as a perfectly natural and innocuous low in your relationship has escalated to a full blown crisis and, if you have gone far enough down that road, true infidelity and dissolution of the union is almost a forgone conclusion. You may even look back in the aftermath and wonder when you became a passenger in the whole process. It’s sort of like the relationship equivalent of the law of unintended consequences. To imagine that you and/or your relationship is immune to this because you are so secure, evolved, trustworthy, mature etc. is a mistake IMO, and one which I choose to avoid. Your mileage may vary.[/quote]

Great post, man.

125

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I suppose I should ask, maybe.

[/quote]

Only if you’re fully prepared for an answer you don’t like. :slight_smile:

126

this thread comes as quite a surprise. My fianceé has a ton of male friends, I’d say that 50% of her pals are male. I myself have a load of female friends, not as much as she has male friends but probably about 20% of my social circle.

It would never in a million years occur to me to not be cool about it. Yes, her male friends have probably thought about banging her at some point, but I don’t care as long as they keep their hands to themselves. Hell, I’ve thought about banging most of my female friends, but I won’t try anything because I don’t want to be unfaithful to my girl and besides my girl mates would probably knock me back anyway.

I’ll never have a problem with her hanging out with dudes, I trust her 100%

127

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I suppose I should ask, maybe.

[/quote]

Only if you’re fully prepared for an answer you don’t like. :)[/quote]

Yes, well, I haven’t made any offers to shut TN down yet. When he’s said anything my response has always been to look slightly confused and blank-ish while at the same time doing my best to appear above reproach, which is my go-to look for things I don’t want to hear. Which of course he knows. I don’t hide my participation, though I don’t belabor the name of the site (have mentioned in the past) and probably don’t indicate the extent of my participation. He’s always startled when I mention it. I don’t think it jibes with how he sees me. I’m not a flirty, hang with the boyz type in RL and I don’t think he gets what draws me here. But because I look so blank and confused, he probably doesn’t feel able to ask me. lol (Kidding.)

I don’t see having close opposite sex friends and I prefer that he not as well (should probably say expect rather than prefer). Early in our relationship we had some stuff to deal with on his side, including online stuff, and he shut it down. I don’t hang out with men socially unless in groups, though I did when I was unattached/not exclusive. But there was never any question in my mind that my “friends” would have sex with me if the opportunity presented.

For the rest of it, I agree, as is almost always the case, with batman730.

128

[quote]batman730 wrote:
I have been with my wife for almost 11 years and we have been married for almost 6. I choose not to have female friends in the context intended in this discussion. My wife does not have male friends either. I did not “forbid” her from having male friends (lol), it is simply the way it is. We never even really talked about it. [/quote]

We don’t disagree about the way things can progress. I disagree with the underlying assumption that one can somehow prevent these friendships from developing in the first place. If your wife works with men, or you work with women, it is just as easy for one of you to start getting friendlier with an attractive coworker. That’s why it has to come down to character and self-control, and how you’ve learned to adapt to lulls in your relationship as a couple.

Here’s a simpler way to go: before getting married, you and your fiance must both pass the marshmallow test. If you can’t do that, don’t get married.

129

[quote]nephorm wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
I have been with my wife for almost 11 years and we have been married for almost 6. I choose not to have female friends in the context intended in this discussion. My wife does not have male friends either. I did not “forbid” her from having male friends (lol), it is simply the way it is. We never even really talked about it. [/quote]

We don’t disagree about the way things can progress. I disagree with the underlying assumption that one can somehow prevent these friendships from developing in the first place. If your wife works with men, or you work with women, it is just as easy for one of you to start getting friendlier with an attractive coworker. That’s why it has to come down to character and self-control, and how you’ve learned to adapt to lulls in your relationship as a couple.

Here’s a simpler way to go: before getting married, you and your fiance must both pass the marshmallow test. If you can’t do that, don’t get married.[/quote]

I think there are coping skills that develop. I know that for myself if I notice that things are getting flirty or sexualized I take two giant steps backward. That would be true here at TN just as in RL. It’s one thing to have friends at work, or online for that matter, but effort has to be expended to move work friendships into the social realm, regardless of gender. Everyone is busy, especially if there are significant others involved.

I have male friends at work whom I value deeply, but there are lines of intimacy that simply aren’t crossed. One of them is sex banter that implies a connection (personalizing it to the two of us). I don’t welcome it, period, unless I’m considering entering into a romantic relationship with someone. A couple of weeks ago a guy walked into a room when I was tucking in my shirt (snowy day, it was one of three layers) and offered to help. He got the confused, blank look, but with added slight frown. One of my boyfriend’s colleagues, a married guy. Not cool to offer to put your hands in my pants. My boyfriend was right there, so I know he wasn’t intending it to go anywhere, but still. Not cool.

The other line is going out alone together. There is no good reason to do this, while there are very good reasons not to.

The self-control starts long before the friendship becomes any sort of threat.

130

I am involved with far too many men professionally, socially, through my hobbies and commitments that it would be impossible trying to avoid ‘situations.’ I do have lunch occasionally with male acquaintances (one on one) and there isn’t any issue. Sexual attraction is irrelevant if it is not wanted or not mutual.

I don’t discuss relationship issues. I don’t bad mouth my guy ever to anyone, even if I’m pissed. That’s what you do when you are looking.

We’ve been together exclusively for almost 20 years.

131

[quote]debraD wrote:
I am involved with far too many men professionally, socially, through my hobbies and commitments that it would be impossible trying to avoid ‘situations.’ I do have lunch occasionally with male acquaintances (one on one) and there isn’t any issue. Sexual attraction is irrelevant if it is not wanted or not mutual.
[/quote]

You don’t find it tiresome or awkward, or does it just never come up as an issue?

I will never understand why people begin a new thing before ending the old.

132

Em, it doesn’t come up. I think it’s possible my personality and how we relate is too much like male buddies for it to turn into a moment. We goof around and joke about sex but I don’t relate to guy buddies as a girl and we argue feminist issues (and everything else) and so I think the boundaries while unstated are pretty clear. When we goof around about sex I am rarely the object of sexualization but if I am it’s usually an attempt at antagonizing me so I think they know what is allowed :P. Interesting since I’ve never had to tell anyone to knock it off! But then some of these guys I’ve worked with very closely for years so we know each other very well.

133

Huh. Now I wonder what’s going on with MY personality.

I don’t even get to argue about feminism very much in real life. :frowning:

134

Heh you’re probably not a bitch =D

1 Like
135

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
The other line is going out alone together. There is no good reason to do this, while there are very good reasons not to.

The self-control starts long before the friendship becomes any sort of threat.[/quote]

The “helping” comment was unprofessional and inappropriate, and was crossing a line. But I don’t think it is representative.

There are reasons to go out alone with a friend, especially one you’ve known for a long time.

Self-control does start before the friendship becomes a threat. Thinking about these kinds of issues and establishing boundaries before you get into the situation helps.

136

[quote]nephorm wrote:

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
My father used to say, “Fidarsi e bene, pero non fidarsi e meglio.”

(To trust is good, but not to trust is better).[/quote]

di dov’e tuo padre?[/quote]

e solo una supposizione, ma… Italia?[/quote]

eehhh ovvio a questo punto ma di che parte ? vedo che lo sai ancora bene l’italiano

137

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]nephorm wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
I have been with my wife for almost 11 years and we have been married for almost 6. I choose not to have female friends in the context intended in this discussion. My wife does not have male friends either. I did not “forbid” her from having male friends (lol), it is simply the way it is. We never even really talked about it. [/quote]

We don’t disagree about the way things can progress. I disagree with the underlying assumption that one can somehow prevent these friendships from developing in the first place. If your wife works with men, or you work with women, it is just as easy for one of you to start getting friendlier with an attractive coworker. That’s why it has to come down to character and self-control, and how you’ve learned to adapt to lulls in your relationship as a couple.

Here’s a simpler way to go: before getting married, you and your fiance must both pass the marshmallow test. If you can’t do that, don’t get married.[/quote]

I think there are coping skills that develop. I know that for myself if I notice that things are getting flirty or sexualized I take two giant steps backward. That would be true here at TN just as in RL. It’s one thing to have friends at work, or online for that matter, but effort has to be expended to move work friendships into the social realm, regardless of gender. Everyone is busy, especially if there are significant others involved.

I have male friends at work whom I value deeply, but there are lines of intimacy that simply aren’t crossed. One of them is sex banter that implies a connection (personalizing it to the two of us). I don’t welcome it, period, unless I’m considering entering into a romantic relationship with someone. A couple of weeks ago a guy walked into a room when I was tucking in my shirt (snowy day, it was one of three layers) and offered to help. He got the confused, blank look, but with added slight frown. One of my boyfriend’s colleagues, a married guy. Not cool to offer to put your hands in my pants. My boyfriend was right there, so I know he wasn’t intending it to go anywhere, but still. Not cool.

The other line is going out alone together. There is no good reason to do this, while there are very good reasons not to.

The self-control starts long before the friendship becomes any sort of threat.[/quote]

This is pretty much exactly what I’m getting at and it’s where I think a lot of people miss it. People often don’t start to engage their self-control until it’s too little too late, or at least heading that way. It’s a little like eating in that regard. Also, passing the marshmallow test when you’re considering getting engaged doesn’t necessarily protect your from the up and downs and perils of a lifetime together. It’s easier to fool yourself than most of us would ever care to admit.

I can absolutely stop myself from engaging in overly flirtatious behaviour. I probably flirt with women unconsciously all the time in passing, but I don’t cultivate sexually charged but “platonic” relationships outside my marriage. I don’t do personalized sexual banter. I don’t do date-like one on one activities and call it “hanging out”. I generally avoid the sort of “innocent” games I see men and women play outside their relationships that are usually safe enough, until they’re not. I don’t mean to come across like I’m particularly stiff, formal or PC with women. I can be plenty crude and inappropriate, when it’s appropriate (irony intended). I just don’t make it personal or, as EmilyQ pointed out, imply any direct, however joking, sexual connection between myself and any woman I may be having a less appropriate laugh with. I’m not telling anyone else what they should do, just what works for me.

As for stopping my wife from developing “dangerous” friendships with male coworkers etc: I can’t stop her, but she can, and I trust her to do so. She has never given me reason to doubt that trust for a moment. If she started calling and/or wanting to go for coffee, dinner with some guy she knows from work or an ex-BF on any kind of a regular basis I would have a problem with that and we would need to figure out where to go from there. It’s not something I really foresee though.

138

[quote]debraD wrote:
Heh you’re probably not a bitch =D

[/quote]

139

[quote]nephorm wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
The other line is going out alone together. There is no good reason to do this, while there are very good reasons not to.

The self-control starts long before the friendship becomes any sort of threat.[/quote]

The “helping” comment was unprofessional and inappropriate, and was crossing a line. But I don’t think it is representative.

There are reasons to go out alone with a friend, especially one you’ve known for a long time.

Self-control does start before the friendship becomes a threat. Thinking about these kinds of issues and establishing boundaries before you get into the situation helps. [/quote]

Bear in mind that I established my work relationships and friendships from within a marriage that I valued. Those behaviors have now carried over into a new relationship. Your friendships predate whatever long term relationship you may develop. We’re in different places.

I guess it depends on the people involved, but for me there’s no real value in pursuing male friends past work chum status. I relate better to and can relax more easily with women, and none of them have ever tried to kiss me or started making awkward, stupid jokes. Which isn’t to say that you would ever do this to one of your friends, of course. But I feel like it always happens with mine if I’m not careful. The passage of time doesn’t seem to be changing the dynamic.

I don’t know whether I somehow attract male sexual aggression (by which I mean advances) or whether it’s totally normal and I lack enough aggression of my own - or sophistication, maybe - to push back, as Debra does. But I don’t like dealing with it.

140

[quote]debraD wrote:
I am involved with far too many men professionally, socially, through my hobbies and commitments that it would be impossible trying to avoid ‘situations.’ I do have lunch occasionally with male acquaintances (one on one) and there isn’t any issue. Sexual attraction is irrelevant if it is not wanted or not mutual.

I don’t discuss relationship issues. I don’t bad mouth my guy ever to anyone, even if I’m pissed. That’s what you do when you are looking.

We’ve been together exclusively for almost 20 years.

[/quote]

I’d like to make the distinction between acquaintances and friends. Or, as girls seem to understand better: friends and best-friends (you can see how emasculated a man is based on his terminology about the difference between acquaintances and friends).

I like to use the cooking example for people who don’t understand.

Say I ask my best-friend (or, friend for the bros) to come over to my house and make a meal for them, one-on-one, just us, no one else. If I’m married and have kids…can I do this with a female without expecting to be stabbed in the face when I go to sleep that night? Probably not.

Can I do this with a bro? Yes.

Thus, point proven.