I’ve stalled out on the hammer strength BTN press, and am not sure if I want to keep a OHP variation in my routine. Barbell and dumbbell overhead presses are all front delt to me. I end up arching my back really hard by the time I get to weight that is even remotely challenging. The low back fatigue is a problem because I train with relatively high frequency each bodypart getting hit every 4 days so I don’t really want the extra low back fatigue from barbell/dumbbell overhead pressing. I’m just curious to see if anyone has any cool OHP variations or how you guys work around not using it.
I do tons of overhead pressing. Seated, standing, chain suspended lockouts, full ROM, with a barbell, with a log, with an axle, with a clean, from the rack, etc. About the only thing I don’t do is dumbbells, and only due to lack of access. When I train in a commercial gym, I do seated DB overhead pressing.
If low back fatigue is the issue, I’d consider sitting.
The only thing I have to offer is that maybe you’re arching your lower back because you have bad thoracic mobility. I used to arch pretty bad on OHP, but once I started working on thoracic extension work (a lot of it really just stretching backwards over a PVC pipe at a few different positions), it’s made a bit of a difference.
Something else to try are partial medium-grip upright rows. The top position should be upper arms parallel to the ground, lower arms perpendicular to the ground, pulling through your elbows. Relative to the torso, the upper arms move in a similar pattern as the overhead press, but emphasizing the delts more than the traps. They also take the triceps out of the movement. You can work fairly heavy on these.
How is your lower back strength? Do you train it much? I know that mine got fatigued on standing military presses due to not doing my hyperextensions and neglecting deadlifting. So I switched to seated DB presses and seated Smith high-incline presses. I LOVE those! You can really overload those, work from the pins, etc. Try those.
Landmine presses are a great hybrid.
Overhead carries kill my lower back, wish I could do them more. Need to do my hypers for this reason alone.
Never mess with KBs- lack of access
Also, there is a machine at my gym that lets you do an OH cable press. I do them one arm at a time. Really hits the side delts too.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I do tons of overhead pressing. Seated, standing, chain suspended lockouts, full ROM, with a barbell, with a log, with an axle, with a clean, from the rack, etc. About the only thing I don’t do is dumbbells, and only due to lack of access. When I train in a commercial gym, I do seated DB overhead pressing.
If low back fatigue is the issue, I’d consider sitting.[/quote]
I was having problems with sitting as well. I think Lorez may be right and that it’s a mobility issue and even when sitting if I’m using a challenging weight my body wants to turn it into an incline press instead of a overhead press. Rack overhead presses are a really cool idea. I’ll try them next rotation. Thanks for the idea.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
The only thing I have to offer is that maybe you’re arching your lower back because you have bad thoracic mobility. I used to arch pretty bad on OHP, but once I started working on thoracic extension work (a lot of it really just stretching backwards over a PVC pipe at a few different positions), it’s made a bit of a difference.
Something else to try are partial medium-grip upright rows. The top position should be upper arms parallel to the ground, lower arms perpendicular to the ground, pulling through your elbows. Relative to the torso, the upper arms move in a similar pattern as the overhead press, but emphasizing the delts more than the traps. They also take the triceps out of the movement. You can work fairly heavy on these.[/quote]
I actually did some dumbbell upright rows. My understanding is that doing them with a fixed bar can sometimes lead to shoulder issues so I used dumbells. I did notice some pinching/discomfort at the top portion of the upright row around my collarbone and upper back. I’ll keep doing them for a while and I will try your mobility tip. I’m thinking that might be my problem.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
How is your lower back strength? Do you train it much? I know that mine got fatigued on standing military presses due to not doing my hyperextensions and neglecting deadlifting. So I switched to seated DB presses and seated Smith high-incline presses. I LOVE those! You can really overload those, work from the pins, etc. Try those.
Landmine presses are a great hybrid.
Overhead carries kill my lower back, wish I could do them more. Need to do my hypers for this reason alone.
Never mess with KBs- lack of access
Also, there is a machine at my gym that lets you do an OH cable press. I do them one arm at a time. Really hits the side delts too.[/quote]
I actually had to stop pulling and squatting heavy for around 1.5 years while I cycled through a half dozen chiropractors, two physical therapists and a few GPs. I eventually found a chiropractor who is also an ART practitioner and my back/hips are at like 90% compared to being in moderate to severe pain all of the time. My only issues now are that my ankles don’t move well from a lot of accumulated scar tissue and that I’m a little locked up around my SI joint. But It’s getting better, not worse.
My pre-bullshit PRs were:
Oly squat 370x1
Conventional deadlift 405x15
at 200-235 pounds bodyweight
I’m at
Oly squat: 245 4x4
Deadlift 325x10 now
~165 pounds bodyweight.
I do a four way split and I generally only take days off when life demands it. If I was only hitting one bodypart/week I wouldn’t be that concerned about low back fatigue.
[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
I end up arching my back really hard by the time I get to weight that is even remotely challenging.[/quote]
When you arch your back it allows your chest to get incorporated into the lift making it much easier. Your back arch is a sign that your chest is compensating for your shoulders/tris with heavy weights.
It’s similar to turning a squat into a good morning squat when you’re hamstring dominant. I’d work with lighter weights to work on form. You can always vary technique to make it harder at lighter weights. Dead stop OHP is great explosive speed work you can try. You could use tempo like 4 second eccentrics, maybe with some GVT…
[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
I actually did some dumbbell upright rows. My understanding is that doing them with a fixed bar can sometimes lead to shoulder issues so I used dumbells. I did notice some pinching/discomfort at the top portion of the upright row around my collarbone and upper back. I’ll keep doing them for a while and I will try your mobility tip. I’m thinking that might be my problem.
[/quote]
Well, here’s what I’ve found, given that I’m still in the process of healing some shoulder impingement related inflammation.
Any form of upright rows are absolutely awful for my shoulders… if I raise the weight much higher than where my upper arms are parallel. This is about the only way I found that I can actually put some real weight on the bar and still hit my lateral delts.
Even lateral raises have been out of the question just because of the pain. So this was pretty much the only movement I found where I could still hit my shoulders and not aggravate the existing injury.
Obviously YMMV. Whey you said “upright rows with dumbbells” and that you were getting some pinching, I’m assuming you were doing “normal” upright rows, rather than the very limited ROM I suggested. But I mean, obviously, don’t do what hurts.
[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
I end up arching my back really hard by the time I get to weight that is even remotely challenging.[/quote]
When you arch your back it allows your chest to get incorporated into the lift making it much easier. Your back arch is a sign that your chest is compensating for your shoulders/tris with heavy weights.[/quote]
That’s true, but it also can mean that your upper back is tight and isn’t able to “unroll” enough to get a good bar path, so your lower back compensates.
The Olympic Press became a pretty unique lift unto itself. All sorts of tricks to keep the bar moving. Basically a backbend to start the movement, straightening quickly and using a trap shrug to fling the bar off the shoulders and past the sticking point, then a second layback to get as much chest into the movement to press it up.
Bumping this to suggest wearing a belt. I press the session before deadlifting so I started wearing my belt during heavy work sets for the same reason and I have come out lower-back unscathed ever since.
[quote]Mattyb83 wrote:
Bumping this to suggest wearing a belt. I press the session before deadlifting so I started wearing my belt during heavy work sets for the same reason and I have come out lower-back unscathed ever since.[/quote]
When I competed in powerlifting I wore a 10mm belt that the highschool football coach bought for the couple of us that competed. Since then I’ve generally avoided belts because the ones most gyms have are garbage in comparison. I’ll have to give this a whirl too.
I appreciated the opinions guys. I’ve got a lot of stuff to try in the next few weeks.
[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Any variation, machine, bar, bell, etc.
I’ve stalled out on the hammer strength BTN press, and am not sure if I want to keep a OHP variation in my routine. Barbell and dumbbell overhead presses are all front delt to me. I end up arching my back really hard by the time I get to weight that is even remotely challenging. The low back fatigue is a problem because I train with relatively high frequency each bodypart getting hit every 4 days so I don’t really want the extra low back fatigue from barbell/dumbbell overhead pressing. I’m just curious to see if anyone has any cool OHP variations or how you guys work around not using it.[/quote]
agree with the above posts as well. work on thoracic mobility and get away from the seated. Shoulder mobility, scap stability.
OHP is bread and butter, but youre working out, why are you sitting down? get off youre ass!
When you’re doing seated DB presses, does your gym have seats with those footpad things in front? I find if I don’t use them I have a tendency to try and arch to turn it into an incline press. If I push hard on the pads with my feet it forces my lower back against the seat, preventing me from arching, and making it a good bit harder.
If you have back pain with OHP I would strongly suspect bad form. With the OHP it is very easy to extend the back in the middle of a rep which, when I do it, causes back pain. The leaning back happens when you don’t keep your abs flexed during the rep, and when the weight is too far forward instead of back. It may be the case that your abs are too weak and you’re compensating by leaning back (this was my problem).
When performing the OHP you want keep you back in a neutral position (think dead lifts or squats). Almost everyone I see in my commercial gym extends while squating / dead lifting / OHPing so don’t compare with other gym goers. The book Starting Strength has a good description of the technique. Super strong dudes can OHP 315 lbs / 140 kg so unless you in that area I’d assume you have a weak point or bad technique if you’re stalled.
My recommendation would be OHP standing (standing required more core strength and works more muscles) and not BTN ( BTN is at the limit of ROM ant it’s easier to injure yourself).
I am kind of curious, should the goal always be to work more muscles?
[/quote]
Nah, you’re goal should be your goal. More muscle involved is just helpful for reaching most goals (strength, mass, coordination, less time in gym, whatever). Edit: Only exception to more muscle that occurs to me right now is if you’re working on a weak point or working around an injury.
I am kind of curious, should the goal always be to work more muscles?
[/quote]
Nah, you’re goal should be your goal. More muscle involved is just helpful for reaching most goals (strength, mass, coordination, less time in gym, whatever). [/quote]
Makes sense. In the case of the TC, I assumed he was wanting to perform overhead pressing as a means to train his shoulders because he mentioned he trained each bodypart 4 times a week, rather than for the sake of becoming a better overhead presser. I saw a lot of comments in the thread speaking to avoiding seated pressing and picking standing for a variety of reasons, but I have found seated pressing to be an incredibly valuable tool for training that many tend to avoid.
Makes sense. In the case of the TC, I assumed he was wanting to perform overhead pressing as a means to train his shoulders because he mentioned he trained each bodypart 4 times a week, rather than for the sake of becoming a better overhead presser. I saw a lot of comments in the thread speaking to avoiding seated pressing and picking standing for a variety of reasons, but I have found seated pressing to be an incredibly valuable tool for training that many tend to avoid.[/quote]
Yeah, I figured his goal was strength since he said he was stalled. Since his back hurts I strongly suspect bad form. I used to do shoulder presses seated too, and I think whether seated or standing is almost just a matter of taste. Arnold used to like them better seated and who am I to argue with him.
Since I read Starting Strength and the OHP technique in that book I’ve been doing it standing, and I have to say that it is much more strenuous that way (assuming you’re using good technique). Standing requires more concentration because the whole body is involved. Standing I have the feeling that I’m more in touch with my body and notice weak points and bad technique better. I won’t be switching back to seated.