[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Thats what I got was greenwise, but if you read I think one of rainjack’s posts in this thread its not the same as grass fed[/quote]
Hmm, I see. I liked it, it tasted pretty good. I didn’t get it because of the diet or whatever, it was just on sale for like $1.20 a steak, so I bought three. Like I said, I have no complaints, but it’s not like I went searching for it. It found me…actually, that sounds kinda creepy.
10,000 years is a blip when it comes to evolution. If anything, humans have decided evolution is too slow and we’re taking over and manipulating the environment to suite our needs…hence the advent of genetic engineering. I’d like to see your source about us evolving at an increasingly accelerated rate. I didn’t even know evolution could be quantified.
Yes, I agree with you on the fish. However, remember that it’s a healthy 3:6 ratio that we’re trying to maintain. Even though, grass fed cattle might not have omega 3 numbers that match those of fish they still have a 3:6 ratio that’s closer to what’s healthy for us. Maintaining that ration is important. When you eat corn-fed beef that ratio gets thrown off, since they contain high levels of omega 6. However, this ratio needs to be considered on a case by case status. You do have to take into account your entire diet. That being said, the typical American diet is NOT conducive to a healthy ratio.
No, ecoli is related to the corn-fed diet. Feeding corn to cattle causes their stomach to become highly acidic. Once that happens a new breed of ecoli evolved, which could withstand the stomach acid in humans. That’s why if you ingest E. coli 0157:H7 you’re screwed and will get sick. A cattle fed grass has a much lower stomach acid level than corn fed and that strand of e.coli can’t evolve from a grass fed cattle. Furthermore, all the cattle crap is infested with e.coli and it ends up seeping into other food systems. That’s why there’s all those e.coli scares with spinach!
Lol, honestly… the beef found me too.
Lol.
This debate is getting heated. I didn’t know there was so much passion surrounding beef.
[quote]Fawkes wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Pastured chickens are called Free Range chickens. I have been in this industry for over 20 years, and this is the first time I have ever heard free range called pastured.
Oh my god you are stupid. Pastured chickens and free range chickens are not the same. Geez, you are so fucking stupid. How many years have you been in the beef/meat industry? You must be one brain damaged moron.
Pastured chickens and free range are NOT the same. pastured chickens are not allowed back into their own droppings for one thing. Man you are stupid. Who reminds you to keep breathing?
http://home.rica.net/phelbert/chickens/ Just read the first FAQ after the brief history.
Many how could a human being be more stupid. The only reason anyone would believe a word you say here is the steroid bloated picture in your avatar. People must see it and think you know something about training - what you know is how to cheat and inject yourself with copious amounts of illegal drugs. You don’t even know the first thing about your own industry. I know more than you about the beef/meat industry and I don’t even work in it - what does that say about your knowledge? It means you know almost nothing about what you know best, and therefore you know less than nothing about everything else. How could you work that long in an industry and not know even the first things about it. Wow., you are STUPID
[/quote]
Oh - and you might want to check the accuracy of your knowledged wrt EC and US beef.
Seems the Euros my be back to importing some US beef before long.
You found some out of the way website that describes minute differences between “pastured” and “free range”.
You are a genius.
I’m still waiting on a display of your “knowledge”.
And, just for the shits and giggles, I was just conferring with a client as to how best to contract his feed grain - commonly referred to as “cake” in the beef business.
Trust me, poindexter - I have forgotten more about the beef industry than you have ever learned. I make my living consulting with farmers, and ranchers. I’m not some jackass that thinks they can become an expert by googling.
But - I am at a loss as to where all your rage is coming from. Most smart people can carry on a conversation with out needing a fucking tampon. either you are not nearly as bright as you want everyone to think, or you really enjoy shoving cotton into your vagina.
[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Lol, honestly… the beef found me too.
Lol.
This debate is getting heated. I didn’t know there was so much passion surrounding beef.[/quote]
Its really just heated between me and rainjack. Rainjack came and jumped my shit without provocation in another thread and so I am really just attacking him. I HAVE NEVER STARTED A FIGHT HERE but I certainly respond when attacked. So far Sensay, Octobergirl, Ironsomething and Rainjack have just jumped my shit
The other thread was a newbie thread. She made one post saying she was fat and looking help and several people jumped her shit , insulting her clothes, the way she wrote etc. I defended her. one of the people jumping this newbies sit was Octobergirl who I have had troubles with before. I was defending this girl and asking people to give her a chance and not just insult everything about her right off the bat - then rainjack came and jumped my shit, without anyone asking him to. http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1929696 So now there is a war between him and I, its a battle of wits - luckily for me he is unarmed. I hate people who attack me for no reason, and he is one of them and so I plan on fighting back.
I NEVER START FIGHTS, but I certainly just don’t let someone attack me.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
But - I am at a loss as to where all your rage is coming from. Most smart people can carry on a conversation with out needing a fucking tampon. either you are not nearly as bright as you want everyone to think, or you really enjoy shoving cotton into your vagina.
[/quote]
Its not some generalized rage, you Benoit-wanna-be. Its just personal because you came and jumped my shit without being asked and for no reason, when I was trying to defend a newbie everyone was attacking - you started a fight. You even asked me to start a thread just attacking you (kind of a vain request)
[quote]Fawkes wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
Lol, honestly… the beef found me too.
Lol.
This debate is getting heated. I didn’t know there was so much passion surrounding beef.
Its really just heated between me and rainjack. Rainjack came and jumped my shit without provocation in another thread and so I am really just attacking him. I HAVE NEVER STARTED A FIGHT HERE but I certainly respond when attacked. So far Sensay, Octobergirl, Ironsomething and Rainjack have just jumped my shit[/quote]
Maybe that should tell you something. No - you are too smart to listen to the common man. How many degrees did you say you have?
[quote]The other thread was a newbie thread. She made one post saying she was fat and looking help and several people jumped her shit , insulting her clothes, the way she wrote etc. I defended her. one of the people jumping this newbies sit was Octobergirl who I have had troubles with before. I was defending this girl and asking people to give her a chance and not just insult everything about her right off the bat - then rainjack came and jumped my shit, without anyone asking him to. So now there is a war between him and I, its a battle of wits - luckily for me he is unarmed. I hate people who attack me for no reason, and he is one of them and so I plan on fighting back.
[/quote]
Let’s get the story straight asshole, you jumped on OctoberGirl first.
Let me give you just a small hint: If you are going to “fight back” try some fucking originality. The word “stupid” is over used. Even though your photo should be in the dictionary beside the word, it is over used.
You have not contributed anything to this thread at all. Much like the steroid forum, you write a lot of words, but say nothing.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I make my living consulting with farmers, and ranchers. [/quote]
Thank you making me glad for my decision to quit eating red meat.
[quote]Fawkes wrote:
rainjack wrote:
But - I am at a loss as to where all your rage is coming from. Most smart people can carry on a conversation with out needing a fucking tampon. either you are not nearly as bright as you want everyone to think, or you really enjoy shoving cotton into your vagina.
Its not some generalized rage, you Benoit-wanna-be. Its just personal because you came and jumped my shit without being asked and for no reason, when I was trying to defend a newbie everyone was attacking - you started a fight. You even asked me to start a thread just attacking you (kind of a vain request)
[/quote]
Once again - you started in with OctoberGirl. I was defending a friend. Not that she needs my help.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Digity wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Digity wrote:
Pick up the book “The Omnivore’s Dilemma”, that’s where I learned about corn-fed cattle and was pretty disgusted by what I read.
Vegetarian beef can be corn fed beef.
Most propaganda is designed to be disgusting. Beef cattle have been being fed grain for eons.
Firstly, I never said anything about vegetarian beef. I distinctly said grass-fed beef. Look at the title of the topic. It doesn’t say: “Do You Eat Vegetarian Beef?”
A cattle’s natural diet is grass. Grains have to be prepared by humans to be fed to cattle. Do you see the distinction? Before humans came along and herded up the cattle they were left to eat grass on the plains. The animals that we evolved off of were roaming around eating forage and what not.
As a bodybuilder, you must admit that what you put in your mouth effects your body, correct? If so, then isn’t it reasonable that the nutritional profile of a cow fed primary corn would be different than a cow fed primarily grass? Turns out there is a difference in the omega 3:6 ratio and composition in vitamins and minerals. You can’t pass that off as propaganda, because there’s scientific data to back up these claims. Interestingly enough, the nutritional profile of cattle fed grass is healthier for humans. This shouldn’t be a huge surprise since we evolved off of grass feeding animals.
Ever wonder why there’s so many e-coli scares with meat? It’s related to their diet. There’s a whole slew of problems with corn-fed beef. Anyway, rather than being close-minded and flippant the least you could do it read the book and decide for yourself.
Sorry for mixing you up with the people that are using the term vegetarian chicken. My bad.
I have to go through this same process every time one of these GFB threads start up.
Yes - cattle are ruminants. They have the ability to host micro-flora that can digest cellulose.
Grains do not have to be “prepared”. Cattle will rip apart a field of black-eyed peas. Cattle will eat the hell out of whole cottonseed.
Given a preference, cattle will choose the higher nutrient foodstuff. In other words, if given a free choice, they will eat grain before grass.
Man has known #3 for centuries. Grain fed beef is not a new development.
Grain fed beef tastes better, has better marbling, and is far more efficient to raise than grass fed beef.
There are no universal standards as to what constitutes grass fed. Unless you take your beef and have it tested in a lab, there is no guarantee as to what you are getting.
[/quote]
Yes, I’m a little weary of the term “naturally-raised” or even “grass-fed” beef. Why? Because I know that “free-range” is a bunch of bullshit. Personally, I think the best solution is to buy locally and visit the farm where you wish to buy your cattle. I plan to do so in the summer. However, I acknowledge that these terms can be played with. That being said, I don’t think we should throw the baby out with the bath water and completely dismiss all grass-fed beef.
Feeding corn to cattle isn’t that efficient. It requires a great deal of energy to grow and ship corn to farms. Think of all the fossil fuels that go into that. It’s much easier to send cattle off into the pasture to eat grass. Furthermore, there’s a ton of environmental cost that come with all the corn America produces. The problem with a corn based diet is much deeper.
The reason cattle are fed corn isn’t because it’s what’s best for them it’s because we produce tons of corn that’s subsidized by the government, which helps to keep the cost of meat down. Who does that benefit? Big business, like Cargill. Even though, a corn fed diet is causing a number of issues like ecoli what matters more to company’s like Cargill is that they can produce cheap meat, which helps increase their profits.
This is big business getting into bed with the government. It’s things like this that bother me. I don’t have a problem with eating meat, but I would like to see the interest of the animals and the environment to be taken into consideration. The way the world operates now that isn’t happening, but that needs to change.
[quote]Fawkes wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Pastured chickens are called Free Range chickens. I have been in this industry for over 20 years, and this is the first time I have ever heard free range called pastured.
Oh my god you are stupid. Pastured chickens and free range chickens are not the same. Geez, you are so fucking stupid. How many years have you been in the beef/meat industry? You must be one brain damaged moron.
Pastured chickens and free range are NOT the same. pastured chickens are not allowed back into their own droppings for one thing. Man you are stupid. Who reminds you to keep breathing?
…
[/quote]
You believe that shit? They have someone walk behind them and scoop up the poop? Changing pastures every day will not stop them from eating each others shit every five minutes.
Some of you guys are total suckers.
Personally, I don’t mind hearing rainjack’s opinion…even if it differs from mine. I would like different perspectives on this issue.
I’ve heard a lot from the grass-fed side, but not enough from the opposing side. That being said, I’m only going based on what I’ve read and I don’t think it should be passed off as propaganda. That’s the only issue I’ve had with rainjack…you can’t dismiss what I’m saying just like that.
[quote]Digity wrote:
10,000 years is a blip when it comes to evolution. If anything, humans have decided evolution is too slow and we’re taking over and manipulating the environment to suite our needs…hence the advent of genetic engineering. I’d like to see your source about us evolving at an increasingly accelerated rate. I didn’t even know evolution could be quantified.
[/quote]
10,000 years is plenty of time. It only took a few generations for northern Europeans to tolerate dairy.
I read a paper article on the subject of evolution getting faster but here are a few online:
http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/070326_evolution.htm
[i]
Explosive population growth is driving human evolution to speed up around the world, according to a new study.
The pace of change accelerated about 40,000 years ago and then picked up even more with the advent of agriculture about 10,000 years ago, the study says.
[/i]
They typical American diet sucks. The reality is we cannot feed everyone on the planet with free range chickens and grass fed beef in the quantities I consume, it just takes too many resources.
If you want to spend your money on grass fed beef, go right ahead but you are probably better served to chase corn fed beef with fish oil and spend your money elsewhere.
[quote]
No, ecoli is related to the corn-fed diet. Feeding corn to cattle causes their stomach to become highly acidic. Once that happens a new breed of ecoli evolved, which could withstand the stomach acid in humans. That’s why if you ingest E. coli 0157:H7 you’re screwed and will get sick. A cattle fed grass has a much lower stomach acid level than corn fed and that strand of e.coli can’t evolve from a grass fed cattle. Furthermore, all the cattle crap is infested with e.coli and it ends up seeping into other food systems. That’s why there’s all those e.coli scares with spinach![/quote]
The e-coli problems with spinach are because people are watering their crops with waste water or grey water. It is a water treatment issue.
Our history is filled with similar examples of diseases spread through poor water treatment.
[quote]Digity wrote:
Feeding corn to cattle isn’t that efficient. It requires a great deal of energy to grow and ship corn to farms. Think of all the fossil fuels that go into that. It’s much easier to send cattle off into the pasture to eat grass. Furthermore, there’s a ton of environmental cost that come with all the corn America produces. The problem with a corn based diet is much deeper.[/quote]
You misunderstand the use of efficient. Cattle convert feed to gain at a much higher rate on a grain based diet than they do on a grass diet. If it were not more efficient, producers would have stopped doing it years ago.
This is where you start losing ground. I know that most young kids want to blame everything on big business, but you are just flat wrong on this one. The beef industry receives no direct farm program benefits, other than some drought assistance every few years.
I have worked in feedlots that don’t feed any corn whatsoever. They feed grain sorghum. Guess which grain receives absolutely no price supports? Bingo - grain sorghum. And as a matter of fact, the implementation of the ehtanol plants has drastically raised the price of corn, and other feed grains. Just look at the CBT numbers over the last 2 years.
While I will agree to some extent that big business is on the gov’t tit - it really has nothing to do with grass fed - grain fed beef.
And just to provide some accuracy to you assertions about e-coli: It is only found in the stomach/digestive tract, not in the meat. During the slaughter process, rumen contents get everywhere. It’s just the nature of the beast. If the fed would allow irraditation of the meat, there would not be an e-coli problem. But it is only a problem when meat is not stored and cooked properly.
[quote]Digity wrote:
Personally, I don’t mind hearing rainjack’s opinion…even if it differs from mine. I would like different perspectives on this issue.
I’ve heard a lot from the grass-fed side, but not enough from the opposing side. That being said, I’m only going based on what I’ve read and I don’t think it should be passed off as propaganda. That’s the only issue I’ve had with rainjack…you can’t dismiss what I’m saying just like that.[/quote]
I was dismissing the book you read as propaganda. Not everything you have learned.
[quote]Fawkes wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
Lol, honestly… the beef found me too.
Lol.
This debate is getting heated. I didn’t know there was so much passion surrounding beef.
Its really just heated between me and rainjack. Rainjack came and jumped my shit without provocation in another thread and so I am really just attacking him. I HAVE NEVER STARTED A FIGHT HERE but I certainly respond when attacked. So far Sensay, Octobergirl, Ironsomething and Rainjack have just jumped my shit
The other thread was a newbie thread. She made one post saying she was fat and looking help and several people jumped her shit , insulting her clothes, the way she wrote etc. I defended her. one of the people jumping this newbies sit was Octobergirl who I have had troubles with before. I was defending this girl and asking people to give her a chance and not just insult everything about her right off the bat - then rainjack came and jumped my shit, without anyone asking him to. http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1929696 So now there is a war between him and I, its a battle of wits - luckily for me he is unarmed. I hate people who attack me for no reason, and he is one of them and so I plan on fighting back.
I NEVER START FIGHTS, but I certainly just don’t let someone attack me.
[/quote]
I just read that thread. You acted like a douche.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Fawkes wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
Lol, honestly… the beef found me too.
Lol.
This debate is getting heated. I didn’t know there was so much passion surrounding beef.
Its really just heated between me and rainjack. Rainjack came and jumped my shit without provocation in another thread and so I am really just attacking him. I HAVE NEVER STARTED A FIGHT HERE but I certainly respond when attacked. So far Sensay, Octobergirl, Ironsomething and Rainjack have just jumped my shit
The other thread was a newbie thread. She made one post saying she was fat and looking help and several people jumped her shit , insulting her clothes, the way she wrote etc. I defended her. one of the people jumping this newbies sit was Octobergirl who I have had troubles with before. I was defending this girl and asking people to give her a chance and not just insult everything about her right off the bat - then rainjack came and jumped my shit, without anyone asking him to. http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1929696 So now there is a war between him and I, its a battle of wits - luckily for me he is unarmed. I hate people who attack me for no reason, and he is one of them and so I plan on fighting back.
I NEVER START FIGHTS, but I certainly just don’t let someone attack me.
I just read that thread. You acted like a douche.
[/quote]
He’s a 2 bit douche bag. You know the type. He’ll leave soon enough. Most pussies don’t hang around very long after they expose themselves.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Digity wrote:
Feeding corn to cattle isn’t that efficient. It requires a great deal of energy to grow and ship corn to farms. Think of all the fossil fuels that go into that. It’s much easier to send cattle off into the pasture to eat grass. Furthermore, there’s a ton of environmental cost that come with all the corn America produces. The problem with a corn based diet is much deeper.
You misunderstand the use of efficient. Cattle convert feed to gain at a much higher rate on a grain based diet than they do on a grass diet. If it were not more efficient, producers would have stopped doing it years ago.
The reason cattle are fed corn isn’t because it’s what’s best for them it’s because we produce tons of corn that’s subsidized by the government, which helps to keep the cost of meat down. Who does that benefit? Big business, like Cargill. Even though, a corn fed diet is causing a number of issues like ecoli what matters more to company’s like Cargill is that they can produce cheap meat, which helps increase their profits. This is big business getting into bed with the government. It’s things like this that bother me. I don’t have a problem with eating meat, but I would like to see the interest of the animals and the environment to be taken into consideration. The way the world operates now that isn’t happening, but that needs to change.
This is where you start losing ground. I know that most young kids want to blame everything on big business, but you are just flat wrong on this one. The beef industry receives no direct farm program benefits, other than some drought assistance every few years.
I have worked in feedlots that don’t feed any corn whatsoever. They feed grain sorghum. Guess which grain receives absolutely no price supports? Bingo - grain sorghum. And as a matter of fact, the implementation of the ehtanol plants has drastically raised the price of corn, and other feed grains. Just look at the CBT numbers over the last 2 years.
While I will agree to some extent that big business is on the gov’t tit - it really has nothing to do with grass fed - grain fed beef.
And just to provide some accuracy to you assertions about e-coli: It is only found in the stomach/digestive tract, not in the meat. During the slaughter process, rumen contents get everywhere. It’s just the nature of the beast. If the fed would allow irraditation of the meat, there would not be an e-coli problem. But it is only a problem when meat is not stored and cooked properly.
[/quote]
You’re correct, cattle can convert grain feed, especially corn, more efficiently than grass. However, that doesn’t mean you should dismiss the ecological cost of feeding cattle this way. I think you need to expand your perspective when it comes to taking into account cost/benefits of feeding animals. When you narrow in on that one perspective grain is more efficient, but if you step back and look at the whole picture the efficiency of it becomes more murky. It’s just that the cost is being passed on to the next generation.
I would like to know the percentage of cattle that are fed corn vs sorghum. I bet it’s mostly corn. Even farmed salmon are fed grains…salmon of all things! There’s obviously a trend here. They’re feeding animals cheap grains and get them off their natural diet. Please don’t tell me it’s natural for salmon to eat grains! There’s no way you can dismiss the fact that big business benefit from this. It’s much cheaper to produce meat this way. You even admitted yourself. That’s what’s pissing me off. The farmed salmon, corn-fed beef…it’s having a domino effect and what’s driving it? The bottom line: profits. You can dismiss that as young-talk bullshit, but if you did you’d be deluding yourself.
[quote]Digity wrote:
… The farmed salmon, corn-fed beef…it’s having a domino effect and what’s driving it? The bottom line: profits. You can dismiss that as young-talk bullshit, but if you did you’d be deluding yourself.[/quote]
People don’t want to pay high prices. It is the way the world works.
[quote]Digity wrote:
You’re correct, cattle can convert grain feed, especially corn, more efficiently than grass. However, that doesn’t mean you should dismiss the ecological cost of feeding cattle this way. I think you need to expand your perspective when it comes to taking into account cost/benefits of feeding animals. When you narrow in on that one perspective grain is more efficient, but if you step back and look at the whole picture the efficiency of it becomes more murky. It’s just that the cost is being passed on to the next generation.[/quote]
There is no inherent extra cost to feeding cattle grain. You aren’t going to save the earth if, tomorrow, all the cattle in the US were put on an all grass diet. I don’t know what cost is being passed on to future generations.
People have been growing and harvesting grains for thousands of years. They have been feeding a portion of those grains to their animals because it make the animals fatten up faster, and makes the meat taste better.
They will be feeding grain to cattle long after we are all dead and buried.
I have worked in about 10 commercial feed yards ranging in size from 10K head to 90K head. If corn was in the ration, it was mixed with sorghum. I have never been involved with a feeding operation that fed exclusively corn.
And as far as that goes - most rations are still about half roughage: hay, hulls, or something.