[quote]TheJonty wrote:
I don’t have any issues believing a big vertical, but 100m in 11 sec is FAST. Especially for someone who’s not a sprinter. Maybe it was rather generously hand timed.[/quote]
I agree, it may quite possibly have been a very generous hand timing haha, but my point remains.
[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
Who said anything about a little bit of plyo and then the powerlifter becomes an elite weightlifter? Weightlifting takes time and effort and dedication. Powerlifting is no different in that aspect. The difference is in execution and to say one in powerlifting cannot posses the same or develop the same neural muscular speed pathways or any other aspect of any other sport is to speak from ignorance in knowing the history of athletes in powerlifting.
If you want to be aloof and think that weightlifting is absolute and master of all sports…go on and think that and believe in purple spotted flying elephants too named god that will save you the next time a failed lock out overhead comes crashing on to your neck. In the mean time me a powerlifter now a weightlifter will lift and compete and do well and be saved by a green freckled hippo flying on a skateboard powered by a rocket named Zeus with an afro. Please…[/quote]
Weightlifting is by no means master of all sports. Even in sports where power is valued, weightlifting lacks unipodal work (maybe a little in the split jerk), doesn’t have rotations, it’s not aerobic, etc…
Let’s just say weightlifters are bad-ass strength athletes and powerlifters are strong too but not necessarily in the same way. I hope more powerlifters do weightlifting for the benefits in conditioning and strength building. I think overhead lifting and the process in weightlifting has more carryover to real-life situations. I love lifting.
[quote]robert35588 wrote:
Weightlifting is by no means master of all sports. Even in sports where power is valued, weightlifting lacks unipodal work (maybe a little in the split jerk), doesn’t have rotations, it’s not aerobic, etc…[/quote]
aerobic! shit just got realz
[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
Who said anything about a little bit of plyo and then the powerlifter becomes an elite weightlifter?
[/quote]
The OP did. That’s what this thread is about. If I wasn’t too dumb to multi-quote I’d show you.
[quote]alternate wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[/quote]
Yes, but surely powerlifters COULD be world-class oly lifters if they just spent a couple of weeks doing plyo work to peak?
They have that massive base quality of maximal strength that oly lifters don’t have, and all they need to do is convert some of it to speed.
So, powerlifters could become world class oly lifters with very little additional training, but oly lifters would need a lifetime of re-training to become world class powerlifters - and even then would probably fail - because you can’t convert speed to strength because strength is the a more fundamental quality than speed.
Is that correct?[/quote]
There it is.
A professional athlete incorporates both types of training into their program because one type of training isn’t better than the other, they both have their place in increasing performance.
Must have forgot about the OP’s original statement. Well rounded athletes will incorporate plyo training in to their weightlifting and powerlifting but saying that a powerlifter will total elite in weightlifting so easily is a bit shortsighted.
if you have unlimited time and recovery then to be as strong as a top powerlifter may, maybe, just possibly help an oly lifter to improve. but few (no-one) has the ability to train to a world class level in those two different sports and be world class at both of them.
This was a funny thread to read. I train to compete in powerlifting but still browse around weightlifting threads and others to see if I can learn anything new and also because I admire the amount of work and dedication it takes to reach elite in any sport. I can see why some people think weightlifters can make a more successful transition to powerlifting rather than vice versa. I actually agree. I think it is true that the weightlifting community is larger than the powerlifting community and that is one reason why I think the elite standards for powerlifting are a bit easier to obtain compared to weightlifting. But even though the powerlifting community isn’t as deep, the top end athletes in this field have excelled pretty far. I’d have to disagree with the comment that the powerlifting community has not pushed the boundaries of what is humanly possible in terms of strength. I believe that the top end has excelled at nearly the same rate as weightlifters. Let’s compare elite numbers for a 165lb powerlifter and a 169.4lb weightlifter. It’s not a direct comparison since the lifters don’t weigh the same but it’s close.
Elite powerlifter: 1261@165 (Squat-420,Bench-301,Deadlift-540)
adjusted to 1298@169.4
Elite weightlifter: 737@169.4 (Snatch-337,C&J-400)
I would guess that the weightlifter could squat close to 500lbs so the transition to powerlifting would be easy for him. Now let’s compare numbers for the two top athletes in each sport, a 165lb powerlifter and a 169.4lb weightlifter. The numbers are for raw lifting.
Jamie McDougal: 1570@165 (Squat-505,Bench-420,Deadlift-645)
adjusted to 1607@169.4
Lu Xiaojun: 834@169.4 (Snatch-385,C&J-449)
If you want to make it more comparable, we can say that McDougal’s total is 1607@169.4. If you gave both guys four years to train in the other sport, how would they compare? I think Lu would get much closer to the powerlifting record than Jamie would get to the olmpic record. But I find it hard to believe that Lu could break McDougal’s record. It would be close. If he trained as a powerlifter from the beginning, it seems possible.
So to the OP, long story short, I think that weightlifters can transition more easily into powerlifting but that doesn’t necessarily mean they will perform better at the top level. The difference between elite standards and world record is 310lbs for powerlifting and only 100lbs for weightlifting. I bet that if the powerlifting community were as deep as weightlifting, the gap would only be about 150-200lbs.
Anyways, to each his own. I respect and admire both sports. These sports can be compared to building up a 500hp engine. The weightlifting version would be an engine geared toward the low end with quick acceleration and the powerlifting version would be an engine geared toward the high end with high top speed. In the end, the work that it took to build that 500hp engine is what is truly impressive.
Just as a point of consideration for your numbers there lift206, I believe I’ve read before that Lu Xiaojun was rumoured to have a 300kg back squat. Given the ease with which this 230x2 front squat was done,
I think it’s possible. Also keep in mind those squats were done 2 days before he competed at the 2011 worlds.
Mark Henry had an over 1000 kg raw powerlifting total and dominated strongman and he was too weak to be a weightlifter. Koklyaev has/had ~1000 kg powerlifting total and top 3 in strongman and he too wasn’t strong enough for weightlifting. Please, please, please don’t compare other sports to weightlifting or you embarrass yourself.
[quote]Wrah wrote:
Mark Henry had an over 1000 kg raw powerlifting total and dominated strongman and he was too weak to be a weightlifter. Koklyaev has/had ~1000 kg powerlifting total and top 3 in in strongman and he too wasn’t strong enough for weightlifting. Please, please, please don’t compare other sports to weightlifting or you embarass yourself.[/quote]
You realize Koklyaev started out as a weightlifter and has done 210/250 in competition?
[quote]Wrah wrote:
Mark Henry had an over 1000 kg raw powerlifting total and dominated strongman and he was too weak to be a weightlifter. Koklyaev has/had ~1000 kg powerlifting total and top 3 in in strongman and he too wasn’t strong enough for weightlifting. Please, please, please don’t compare other sports to weightlifting or you embarass yourself.[/quote]
Who the fuck are you? Unless you’re snatching double your body weight nobody cares about your opinion. You’re insulting a group of athletes who have to hold down a job & train in their spare time. Olympic weightlifters are hand picked as kids, given to the best coaches, train full time, given the best drugs & don’t have to worry about paying bills. Most powerlifters get invloved in the sport much later in life. Remember weightlifting has TREMENDOUS technical & flexibility requirements, these qualities need to be developed early.
^This is probably one of the greatest feats of strength I have ever seen, considering the awkwardness of the implement & the ease at which he completed it. Had this guy been trained as a weightlifter since the age of 9 or 10 then there’s no doubt that he would be a world record holder IMO.
That video of Lu is more absurd every time I see it. A comfortable FS double done with triple bw 2 days before worlds lolll. Yeah, the dude can definitely BS 300kg. It’s not really fair to use him as a point of comparison though because he’s pretty much a class above everyone else in his sport as well lol.
[quote]lesfayes wrote:
[quote]Wrah wrote:
Mark Henry had an over 1000 kg raw powerlifting total and dominated strongman and he was too weak to be a weightlifter. Koklyaev has/had ~1000 kg powerlifting total and top 3 in in strongman and he too wasn’t strong enough for weightlifting. Please, please, please don’t compare other sports to weightlifting or you embarass yourself.[/quote]
You realize Koklyaev started out as a weightlifter and has done 210/250 in competition?[/quote]
Yes but he wasn’t consistant enough to even get to the Olympics, where as organizers of World’s Strongest Man would beg him to participate. See the difference?
[quote]Wrah wrote:
[quote]lesfayes wrote:
[quote]Wrah wrote:
Mark Henry had an over 1000 kg raw powerlifting total and dominated strongman and he was too weak to be a weightlifter. Koklyaev has/had ~1000 kg powerlifting total and top 3 in in strongman and he too wasn’t strong enough for weightlifting. Please, please, please don’t compare other sports to weightlifting or you embarass yourself.[/quote]
You realize Koklyaev started out as a weightlifter and has done 210/250 in competition?[/quote]
Yes but he wasn’t consistant enough to even get to the Olympics, where as organizers of World’s Strongest Man would beg him to participate. See the difference?[/quote]
Not really. It’s one athlete who you could simply argue was better at displaying his strength in a less technical way. Enough of the “too weak” stuff.
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
Just as a point of consideration for your numbers there lift206, I believe I’ve read before that Lu Xiaojun was rumoured to have a 300kg back squat. Given the ease with which this 230x2 front squat was done,
Yeah you’re right, he could probably break records in any strength sport if he chose to dedicate himself to it. Since squat numbers are good indicators of strength and he can squat well over 600lbs, he can probably break records in powerlifting. He’s a monster and is way ahead of the competition.
It seems to me that powerlifting would have much more carryover into weightlifting if the bench press was replaced with the standing press. The limit in strength when transitioning from powerlifting to weightlifting is pressing overhead. For most people, getting stronger in the standing press means the bench press numbers go up, but the reverse may not be true. That’s why weightlifters can bench big if they snatch or C&J big numbers but powerlifters won’t be able to put up big snatches or C&Js. In terms of lower body strength, powerlifters are on par with weightlifters. In 2008, Elias George squatted 615 @ 165lbs. Lu is capable of squatting over 600 at 169.4lbs. Both types of athletes have similar lower body strength and that strength is applied in a similar vertical movement. I am willing to bet that a person who can squat 600lbs can easily power clean over 300lbs without training for it. The upper body strength however, is applied in drastically different ways.
If the main lifts for powerlifting were squat, press, deadlift, this debate about whether a weightlifter or powerlifter is better would have more fair comparisons. If a powerlifter could press 275 instead of bench 420 at 165lbs, it wouldn’t take him long to build a world class snatch and C&J.
Anyways, it doesn’t matter whether someone chooses one or the other. What is more important is why they chose that sport and how they compare to competition. Supa power is right about powerlifting being somewhat of a hobby as it is a sport. I chose powerlifting over weightlifting because I can see myself competing in the future for top ten best american deadlifts. Making an honest assessment of myself, I doubt I’d have the time and coaching available to attain a snatch/C&J of over 300/400. I would choose weightlifting if I had a shot at the Olympics lol.
"It seems to me that powerlifting would have much more carryover into weightlifting if the bench press was replaced with the standing press. The limit in strength when transitioning from powerlifting to weightlifting is pressing overhead,"loft206
There is no press in olympic lifting that has been eliminated in 1970s. Dont confuse press with jerks. A press is a disqualification from competition. Infact a lot of lifters are discouraged to do heavy presses in workputs because it can create a problem locking the bar overhead and slows you down