I didn’t mean to say that pressing is an olympic lift, just that it uses a similar motion compared to the jerk. A lifter would be able to transition to overhead movements much easier if they did the standing press compared to the bench press. It’s because they would develop the necessary stabilizer muscles and would be more accustomed to having heavy weights overhead while standing. I didn’t know that weightlifters are discouraged to press. Do weightlifters not push press or press as accessory work for the jerk?
Never mind. No reason to argue. Let’s just agree that weightlifters get strong by accident because that is what some people like to believe.
look press has negative results on the lifts a research has shown that.
dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles010.html
read the last paragraph of the first section
and backs squat has carry over to lifts cause it makes your quads and hamstring stronger. Broz said it has carry over to the snatch particularly the catch phase. and if you notice the back angle it is similar to the pull position of the snatch. Even then Abadjev and Koing for that matter eliminated back squats from their workout cause it has no resemblance to competition. We all know its working for them. I remember we had this discussion in the thread of press having any good results on lifts and a lot of experienced guys said no.
I am just giving my opinion. I am a novice lifter with only 77 and 95 lifts to my name. You might say Klokov does presses and other russian lifter. I frankly dont know why. I apologize if i came across as a douchebag who knows it all
[quote]supa power wrote:
^This is probably one of the greatest feats of strength I have ever seen, considering the awkwardness of the implement & the ease at which he completed it. Had this guy been trained as a weightlifter since the age of 9 or 10 then there’s no doubt that he would be a world record holder IMO.[/quote]
While Big Z probably would’ve been a helluva o-lifter (and he’s one of my favourite strongmen), there’s a huge difference between a 220kg push press (awkward though it may be) and a 263kg jerk. There’s video of Klokov push pressing 225 in training, and his best clean and jerk in competition is 232.
[quote]lift206 wrote:
Yeah you’re right, he could probably break records in any strength sport if he chose to dedicate himself to it. Since squat numbers are good indicators of strength and he can squat well over 600lbs, he can probably break records in powerlifting. He’s a monster and is way ahead of the competition.
It seems to me that powerlifting would have much more carryover into weightlifting if the bench press was replaced with the standing press. The limit in strength when transitioning from powerlifting to weightlifting is pressing overhead. For most people, getting stronger in the standing press means the bench press numbers go up, but the reverse may not be true. That’s why weightlifters can bench big if they snatch or C&J big numbers but powerlifters won’t be able to put up big snatches or C&Js. In terms of lower body strength, powerlifters are on par with weightlifters. In 2008, Elias George squatted 615 @ 165lbs. Lu is capable of squatting over 600 at 169.4lbs. Both types of athletes have similar lower body strength and that strength is applied in a similar vertical movement. I am willing to bet that a person who can squat 600lbs can easily power clean over 300lbs without training for it. The upper body strength however, is applied in drastically different ways.
If the main lifts for powerlifting were squat, press, deadlift, this debate about whether a weightlifter or powerlifter is better would have more fair comparisons. If a powerlifter could press 275 instead of bench 420 at 165lbs, it wouldn’t take him long to build a world class snatch and C&J.
Anyways, it doesn’t matter whether someone chooses one or the other. What is more important is why they chose that sport and how they compare to competition. Supa power is right about powerlifting being somewhat of a hobby as it is a sport. I chose powerlifting over weightlifting because I can see myself competing in the future for top ten best american deadlifts. Making an honest assessment of myself, I doubt I’d have the time and coaching available to attain a snatch/C&J of over 300/400. I would choose weightlifting if I had a shot at the Olympics lol.[/quote]
[quote]lift206 wrote:
I didn’t mean to say that pressing is an olympic lift, just that it uses a similar motion compared to the jerk. A lifter would be able to transition to overhead movements much easier if they did the standing press compared to the bench press. It’s because they would develop the necessary stabilizer muscles and would be more accustomed to having heavy weights overhead while standing. I didn’t know that weightlifters are discouraged to press. Do weightlifters not push press or press as accessory work for the jerk?[/quote]
Yeah, Lu Xiaojun may not be a real fair comparison, but he’s the one you used.
I don’t think it would be as easy for a powerlifter to transition to weightlifting as you seem to think, even if the press was contested instead of the bench press. The technical and flexibility requirements are just too high (as alluded to higher up on this page) and the strength is sufficiently position-specific that the style of squat and deadlift most powerlifters do won’t have much carryover to the snatch and clean and jerk.
Also, in my experience, it is not necessary to have a strong push press or strict press in order to jerk big weights. While I’m not convinced it would have a negative effect, I have never experienced much of a positive effect on my jerks from including press or push press work in my training, and when I’m in shape I’m generally capable of jerking whatever I can stand up with. The upward force on the bar necessary to jerk big weights comes from your lower body, not your upper body. Your arms/shoulders mostly push yourself under the bar after you’ve pushed it up with your legs.
Obviously there are international elite level lifters who utilize pressing in their training (the Russians come to mind), and there are also others who don’t utilize pressing so much in their training. I’m just sharing my experience.
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
[quote]supa power wrote:
^This is probably one of the greatest feats of strength I have ever seen, considering the awkwardness of the implement & the ease at which he completed it. Had this guy been trained as a weightlifter since the age of 9 or 10 then there’s no doubt that he would be a world record holder IMO.[/quote]
While Big Z probably would’ve been a helluva o-lifter (and he’s one of my favourite strongmen), there’s a huge difference between a 220kg push press (awkward though it may be) and a 263kg jerk. There’s video of Klokov push pressing 225 in training, and his best clean and jerk in competition is 232.[/quote]
And Chemerkin “pseudo jerked” 262.5 kg in competition. Almost a push press. Sadly we don’t know for sure but judging from that I don’t think 240-250 kg push press (in competition shape and tested!) would be unrealistic for this guy. I would like to know for comparison what Zydrunas can push press with the regular bar (and yes yes, the lift is super technical and weightlifters have a technique advantage here. Strongman who can push press 200 kg is EASILY stronger than a weightlifter who can do 250. And oh yeah, push press is all legs :D).
[quote]Wrah wrote:
Never mind. No reason to argue. Let’s just agree that weightlifters get strong by accident because that is what some people like to believe.[/quote]
I never said it was an accident. Nobody gets strong by accident, not even the powerlifters and strongmen who don’t have a team of 500 Soviet and/or Chinese scientists and world class coaches monitoring their every repetition get strong by accident. You just seem to have such a boner for weightlifting that you can’t acknowledge that other strength athletes are just as strong in their own right. Each has simply grown to display their strength in different ways.
But you can’t tell me that Misha Koklaev is “too weak” to be a weightlifter. That’s absurd, he’s one of the strongest men in the world. That’s like saying that Michael Jordan wasn’t athletic enough to be a baseball player. He most certainly was athletic enough, he just sucked at baseball. The technical component of the sport. On the other hand, he had a pretty good jump shot.
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
[quote]supa power wrote:
^This is probably one of the greatest feats of strength I have ever seen, considering the awkwardness of the implement & the ease at which he completed it. Had this guy been trained as a weightlifter since the age of 9 or 10 then there’s no doubt that he would be a world record holder IMO.[/quote]
While Big Z probably would’ve been a helluva o-lifter (and he’s one of my favourite strongmen), there’s a huge difference between a 220kg push press (awkward though it may be) and a 263kg jerk. There’s video of Klokov push pressing 225 in training, and his best clean and jerk in competition is 232.[/quote]
This is my personal opinion based on several factors. The centre of gravity of the implement will always be much further away from the centre of gravity of your body in comparisson to a barbell, so in theory everyone should barbell push press much more than they can log press. Bear in mind he also HAULED this 220kg implement up his body using brute strength prior to push pressing it. He also uses minimum knee dip prior to “jerking” the weight, he stated in an interview that he does this because of previous knee surgeries.
There is ZERO bar whip with a log, when the weights are that heavy bar whip is a huge factor in the ease of lifting. Big Z should at the very least be cable of barbell push pressing 235kg off the rack, in his current state with no specific olympic weightlifting training, I’m not saying that he would clean & jerk much more than that, he probably wouldn’t even get close to meeting the flexibility requirements of a clean. Had he been trained as an oly lifter from scratch however, there is no doubt he would be a world record holder. Bear in mind that Koklyaev who has done 210/251 could not touch big Z on the log lift.
The guy is a genuine freak of freaks. The guy is also 36 years old & just set a log lift WR!
[quote]ape288 wrote:
[quote]Wrah wrote:
But you can’t tell me that Misha Koklaev is “too weak” to be a weightlifter. That’s absurd, he’s one of the strongest men in the world.[/quote]
But according to Wrah, Koklaev who was an elite weightlifter doing 210 & 251 (which would have won gold in London & Beijing) was too weak to be an elite weightlifter.
[quote]supa power wrote:
[quote]ape288 wrote:
[quote]Wrah wrote:
But you can’t tell me that Misha Koklaev is “too weak” to be a weightlifter. That’s absurd, he’s one of the strongest men in the world.[/quote]
But according to Wrah, Koklaev who was an elite weightlifter doing 210 & 251 (which would have won gold in London & Beijing) was too weak to be an elite weightlifter.
[/quote]
Koklyaev can’t handle drug testing and presumably isn’t very strong with lower dosages or after short period of time without any drugs. He’s very bitter about drug testing because of this. He’s no weightlifter to begin with.
This is all speculation. Just stop