Discussing CW's Methods

[quote]decimation wrote:
Don’t u gas early? Shouldn’t you focus more on endurance work for a while, if you are already explosive enough.
Just finished reading speedtrap lol.[/quote]

Extremely early, however I don’t think it’s a matter of endurance anymore. Top speed is dependent upon one’s ability to relax, of which I have none. I’ve been doing a lot of reflexive firing isometrics (drills specifically designed to teach relaxation at speed) coupled with relaxation/visualisation exercises and top speed sprinting and my top speed is going up quite nicely. My accel development still outstrips my top speed, but they’re getting closer together. By the time the season rolls around everything should be fixed.

And I haven’t read “Speed Trap,” is it any good? I’ve read CFTS, and I liked that, but is there anything else in “Speed Trap?”

Experience is all good and great, but it is pretty sickening that most people here are discounting almost everything that RJ says based on the fact that he is “only”
19. Sure experience counts, but so does knowledge. If I had to choose between listening to RJ, who doesn’t have much “experience” but is rather well read, and someone who has been lifting for 20 years doing chest and tris on mondays and wednesdays and back and bis on tuesdays and thursdays, I think I would listen to RJ!

Seems like no one on this post wants to give him credit even though he gives sources for everything he says. Where is the debate? Who cares how he “came across”? This is T-Nation, the testerone should be flowing freely here! Or did we all grow vaginas recently?

[quote]shadyniner wrote:
Experience is all good and great, but it is pretty sickening that most people here are discounting almost everything that RJ says based on the fact that he is “only” 19. [/quote]

I think most people consider training age to be more important than chronological age. Besides the only person whining about his age is him.

In that scenario you have someone who hasn’t amassed any experience. Simply “doing something for a while” is not what people mean when they talk about experience. They are talking about learning, expirementation, and results.

Testosterone and respect are not mutually exclusive. I would even argue that they go hand in hand.

Fair enough on the age comparison, it probably wasn’t an apples to apples comparison.

I don’t think he disrespected anyone. He stated his opinion that the information an author gave was wrong, and all of a sudden no one can handle that. If RJ was 40 years old and had 20 years under the bar, plus his knowledge, would anyone still have a problem?

Either way, there was a ton of good information in both threads, and I for one learned quite a bit. If it takes calling out a contributor to spark that much information sharing, then I am all for that.

Push, I am forced to disagree with you. While my own training experience is minimal, I am perfectly capable of learning from the experiences of those before me. Also, I’m not quite sure why people think you need to learn how to assign training. If you understand the physiological and neurological impacts of each training method and know what abilities each goal is comprised of then putting together a training plan is quite simple.

Take top speed sprinting for instance. It is a cyclical reactive dominant action comprised of stages of alternating relaxation and high force/brief duration isometric contractions. To run fast, one needs a high percentage of Type IIa and Type IIx muscle fibers, conditioned/stiff tendons and ligaments, inhibited Golgi apparatus’, a high degree of starting strength, a well conditioned stretch reflex, adequate functional ROM, correct muscle firing sequences, and technical proficiency in the movement pattern. At this point, it’s only a matter of discovering which qualities the trainee is deficient in and applying training methods to correct said deficiencies.

The same can be done for any goal. It doesn’t take wisdom to apply training effectively, it only takes an understanding of the goals and methods available to reach them.

[quote]shadyniner wrote:
Fair enough on the age comparison, it probably wasn’t an apples to apples comparison.

I don’t think he disrespected anyone. He stated his opinion that the information an author gave was wrong, and all of a sudden no one can handle that. If RJ was 40 years old and had 20 years under the bar, plus his knowledge, would anyone still have a problem?

Either way, there was a ton of good information in both threads, and I for one learned quite a bit. If it takes calling out a contributor to spark that much information sharing, then I am all for that.[/quote]

If rj was 40 years old and had been training for two years and stated his views trumped everyone else’s due to reading my responses would have been the same. The point you are missing is time under the bar and positive physical development as a result of that. A guy could be forty years old and have trained for thirty years, but if he looked like Woody Allen, I wouldn’t take him seriously. It’s knowledge combined with action and development… time.

D

Okay Push, lets degrade this conversation a little bit further. I won’t take any of your advice until you out squat me. So, when you can do an ATG back squat with more than 405 lbs I’ll take you seriously. If you can’t squat that much, then who cares what you have to say. You obviously haven’t spent enough time under the bar.

Same goes for you, Dedicated

:slight_smile:

RJ,

The initial proposition you put forward was that the size principle does NOT apply under eccentric loading and that eccentric loading preferentially recruited the HTMU. In support you cited a 1996 paper by Enoka.

I have tried to read some of the studies on this subject and I must say that for some of us the science is very complex and it is often difficult to understand the methodology limitations and practical application of the findings.

However what is clear is that there is NO consensus that the size principle does not apply during eccentrics.

I quote for example from a paper presented at the University of Colordao in 2004

Discharge pattern of single motor units during shortening and lengthening contractions

Benjamin Pasquet, Alain Carpentier, and Jacques Duchateau

Universite Libre de Bruxelles, Brussels, Belgium

Conflicting results have been reported regarding motor units (MUs) recruitment patterns during lengthening (LEN) contractions. Although some authors suggested that LEN contractions differ from shortening (SHO) contractions and involve a selective recruitment of high-threshold MUs (Nardone et al., 1989; see also Howel et al., 1995), others investigators showed no difference in the recruitment order (Sogaard et al. 1996; Laidlaw et al., 2000; Stotz and Bawa, 2001). In addition, there is a lack of consistent observations regarding MUs discharge rate during these two contraction types. The objective of this study was to compare the recruitment pattern and discharge rate of MUs during standardized LEN and SHO contractions.

A total of 59 MUs were investigated. No systematic recruitment of additional high-threshold MUs and derecruitment of low-threshold MUs was observed during LEN contractions. In contrast, additional MUs were occasionally recruited during SHO contractions, while the previously active units maintained their discharge rate. A different behaviour was observed in LEN contractions, since MUs with the highest recruitment threshold usually stopped to discharge before the end of the movement. During SHO contractions, the typical discharge pattern observed at the beginning of the movement was a long first interspike interval (ISI) followed by a quick increase in discharge rate. In the second part of the movement, the discharge rate was progressively enhanced. In contrast, during LEN contractions, 2-3 shorts initial ISI were followed by a more stable discharge rate throughout the movement.

In line with previous investigations (Sogaard et al. 1996; Laidlaw et al., 2000; Stotz and Bawa, 2001), our study does not support the viewpoint of a preferential recruitment of high-threshold MUs or possible change in recruitment order during LEN contractions, compared with SHO ones (Nardone et al., 1989). If some MUs recruitment or derecruitment occurred during SHO and LEN contractions, respectively, this behaviour happened in accordance with the size principle (Henneman et al., 1965). The discharge pattern, however, differed between LEN and SHO contractions. In the former condition, the lengthening of the muscle presumably have induced an increased discharge of the muscle spindles and consequently intensified muscle activation. In contrast, the unloading of the spindles at the onset of muscle shortening can explain the decrease in MUs discharge rate. The derecruitment of some MUs at the end of the LEN contraction should be due to increased passive and active force during muscle lengthening (Pasquet et al., 2000), and therefore the need of a reduced number of active MUs to maintain the same net force. It is concluded that although the discharge pattern differs in SHO and LEN contractions, in both conditions MUs are recruited and derecruited in an orderly fashion, from small to large ones and vice versa, respectively.

I do not say that the above is definitive or that you are necesasrily wrong in what you said but I have read other summaries of the literature on this topic and it is quite clear that what you have asserted as an incontrovertible scientific fact unknown to Chad and others is anything but that.

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
Okay Push, lets degrade this conversation a little bit further. I won’t take any of your advice until you out squat me. So, when you can do an ATG back squat with more than 405 lbs I’ll take you seriously. If you can’t squat that much, then who cares what you have to say. You obviously haven’t spent enough time under the bar.

Same goes for you, Dedicated

:slight_smile:

[/quote]

I have done it before and within two months of training for it specifically I could do it again. Right now I could probably do it with between 325 or 350. My best at one time was 500 not ass to grass but breaking parallel for ten. I was about 31 or 32 at the time. :slight_smile:

D

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Can you summarize your point of this thread and whatever principals you are trying to get across? Try in under 6 sentences if you can I have low attention span. If you go over a little I’ll still read though, just in parts.

The point of this thread was that CW said moving fast during the concentric of a lift was the best way to recruit HTMUs. I said that eccentrics (more specifically drop-and-catch methods) were superior in this regard. I also pointed out that the size principle does no apply during eccentric contractions.

That’s basically it, minus the research and the flaming.

[/quote]

Thanks for dumbing it down for some of us. Do you mean that concentric lifts are superior to build size with your final statement?

If so then it all makes perfect sense to me.

If you have all the size you need then explosive plyos, drop and catch etc are probably the way to go. If you are trying to add mass and still be athletic then concentric lifting should make up a significant portion of your training.

Nice post, Peter. This is what I was looking for, a scholarly debate complete with references. Good job.

As for the study, it certainly does make the issue a bit cloudier, now doesn’t it? Here is where it comes down to choosing what to believe. Personally, I would choose to believe studies done by Roger Enoka, as the man is perhaps the foremost scientist in the field of neurophysiology and has been for decades. However, that’s not to say I’m not entertaining the idea that he could be wrong, as it is certainly a possibility.

Even if we do agree that the size principle works during all modes of contraction, that still leaves my second statement. I said “[quote]Lifting a load fast concentrically will provide more MU recruitment than lifting the same load slowly will, but there’s an ever better way to do this. By performing a freefall eccentric and then catching and reversing the load as quickly as possible (basically using the shock method but with a barbell) you will recruit more MUs then you would even during a 1RM.[/quote]”

This statement still stands true. Intramuscular tension is higher during this method than at any time during standard weight training, even if concentric speed is emphasized. So, while my first statement may be controversial, my second statement is not.

Thanks for contributing Peter. I appreciate it.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Thanks for dumbing it down for some of us. Do you mean that concentric lifts are superior to build size with your final statement?

If so then it all makes perfect sense to me.

If you have all the size you need then explosive plyos, drop and catch etc are probably the way to go. If you are trying to add mass and still be athletic then concentric lifting should make up a significant portion of your training.[/quote]

You’re welcome, and no, that’s not what the last statement meant. In my last statement I just meant that fast twitch fibers are preferentially recruited during eccentric exercise. In fact, at high speeds, fast twitch fibers are recruited and slow twitch fibers are actually inhibited to a degree.

If it were me trying to put size on someone who is power deficient (like most trainees are) then I would use drop-and-catch methods combined with isometrics in the time range of 25-40 seconds for one session. And for the other session I would use oscillatory isometrics in the time bracket of 25-40 seconds (I typically use time brackets to assign work instead of reps). Each method capitalizes on reflexive firing and has a high peak of neuromuscular energy while simultaneously providing a significant time under tension.

Not only would these methods teach the trainee to put a little more neuromuscular backing to their movements (through increases in starting strength and a conditioning of the stretch reflex), but they would cause enough protein degradation to stimulate hypertrophy.

However, if an athlete wanted a method that was not as taxing on the CNS and caused less soreness than the drop-and-catch methods I would recommend fast concentrics, as it’s a passable substitute. Similarly, if an athlete is already very explosive then traditional training, ala CW, will work just as well for hypertrophy gains. Most people do not fit into this category though.

[quote]jsal33 wrote:
By the way oscillating Isometrics have put size on me. [/quote]

Can you give an example?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
RJ, I going to lecture you for a minute on “making distinctions”. First of all it is either the height of naivete or the height of arrogance to come on here and say (paraphrasing) “I don’t need experience cuz I have lots of knowledge”. I know, I know you don’t think you said that but you did. BTW, helping your 12 year old brother increase his vertical leap by six inches does not count.

Your response was you’re using other people’s experiences therefore that should count. It does but here’s the distinction. Others’ experiences will never count as yours. Others’ experiences are knowledge. But that’s it.

You have obviously amassed a fair amount of knowledge. You have amassed virtually no wisdom. But that’s OK. You’re young and it is rare to find a wise young’un. Very, very, very few of us are or were.

There is a distinction between knowledge and wisdom. Having a lot of knowledge means “knowing a lot of stuff”. Having wisdom is the ability (most often gained, if not always, through experience - real experience) to properly apply “all that stuff”.

Now you may end up being the next Jonas Salk of exercise physiology and all of your buds and detractors here at T-Nation will have to humbly acknowledge your deserved stardom but chances are you’ll look back in about ten years and go “OMG, what a bozo I was to come across the way I did. I had no idea what I was doing”.

Archive this thread and the other one and get back to us in a few years. We’d love to hear from you.

[/quote]

Push,

He is just a kid who read some studies and now thinks he knows it all. Give him a few years to discover that, even if he had the formal educational background to understand the studies he is reading (which he doesn’t), it would still not mean much without being in the trenches and living it.

So just smile at his new found enthusiasm and hope that he has enough sense to not come up to guys in the gym touting this stuff or he might be logging on to TN next time from a hospital bed.

Zap

I used Oscilatting Iso flys. I used this when I was using a combined westside autoreg program. EX: I would do a max effort lockout type movement. Then I would do OI Fly’s for 20 seconds X 5

Why? By doing lockout type (westside) bench training I felt I was neglecting my pec development. It was not the appearance I was conncerned with but the ability to get weight off my chest in the bench press. I do not compete but I like to bench raw.

I did the flys in a way where I was in the full stretch position. My chest had deflated by focusing on heavy lockouts and board presses. I was concerned that if I did not strenghten my pecs I was headed for a blowout.

jsal33

I read the whole thread and didn’t want to get in the brawl, 'till now, but I think while RJ24 has some valid points, he really is one of the guys, who after convincing themselves something, can argue with the whole world about it, only because they think if it passed the test of their logic it should be right for everyone else.

I’m not talking about the facts you’ve presented, RJ24. It’s about the mere fact that you fervently argue about a method, which allegedly gives better results than other in ONE aspect, and don’t take into account a thousand things, which can alter your results. And to take account for these things you must have walked the walk, you must have experience. You’re a young guy, you may be gifted, so nearly everything will work for you or your teenage brother.

Maybe the post of Magarhe on the last page said it all.

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
Okay Push, lets degrade this conversation a little bit further. I won’t take any of your advice until you out squat me. So, when you can do an ATG back squat with more than 405 lbs I’ll take you seriously. If you can’t squat that much, then who cares what you have to say. You obviously haven’t spent enough time under the bar.

Same goes for you, Dedicated

:slight_smile:

[/quote]

Well, that wasn’t very strong point of yours. I won’t take any of your advice until you outdo me in one-arm pullups. So, when you can do 5 OAP’s without releasing the bar, I’ll take you seriously. And there’s a ton of guys here who can outdo you in nearly everything

mldj, good, you’ve actually read my posts. I made a very small claim. Chad said his method was the best way to activate HTMUs and I countered saying it was not. That’s basically all this conversation was.

And as for my comment about squatting 405, that was a joke. I was making fun of how nobody on this site takes you seriously unless you’re stronger than them. I know it doesn’t matter how much I squat, but try getting that through the thick heads of the posters here.