Discussing CW's Methods

RJ24, i think you are comparing apples and oranges here, the drop and catch method you described seems valid but a kind of a strong medicine to be used in certain ocasions, lifting as fast as possible in the concentric is more something you can apply consistently to improve any lifting prigram.

I personally lift always as fast as possible, but i still bielive that keep pushing when it slows down, going close or to failure, has merit.

About scientific studies, IMHO, they should be used to explain something you observe in practice and point things to be tried in practice (making trial and error more oriented and less ramdom). As Poliquin said in a article is not unusual phisyologists being years behind the strength coaches…

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
F0rG3tNikeDoMe are you another 19 year old that needs pampers. Oh my bad your not hurt your the one doing the cuddling.
Little tootsie wootsie went and got his Mommie thats so cute. [/quote]

…I’m his “mommy” now?

I’m not “blinded” by anything,i was’nt advocating the use of his preference, i was stating that healthy debates are good for the bodybuilding community. Its people like you that jump to innacurate conclusions, like the one you just presented, that ruin all possibilities of a positive debate.

your missing the point of my post buddy…

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
The point of this thread was that CW said moving fast during the concentric of a lift was the best way to recruit HTMUs. I said that eccentrics (more specifically drop-and-catch methods) were superior in this regard. I also pointed out that the size principle does no apply during eccentric contractions.[/quote]

In defense to RJ, you don’t need years of bodybuilding or strength training experience to know this kind of thing. It can be taught in a classroom within an hour. However, since this is within the topic of neuroscience, it does help your credibility if you had a degree in neurophysiology.

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
Lorisco, Chad said that my information was bunk and that I had nothing to back it with. I then stated how the size principle worked to support my statement.

And I’m not just looking for these things on the web. I have binders of studies and a library of books. And please, stop the insults.

Finally, yes, plyometric movements are the most neurally draining of all methods, but they still have quite an impact on the musculotendon system. When weight is added to the plyometric actions, intramuscular force exceeds that found in traditional weight work. This extreme force causes adaptation.

PS, about my weight, I’m 6’ tall and weigh 205 lbs. Maybe the picture is misleading (it really is) but I’m quite large, for a sprinter at least.[/quote]

You need to go find some more studies from those binders. I have never seen any study that demonstrates Plyo under a load is effective for building muscle CSA. In addition, I don’t know of any studies that demonstrate the benefit of plyo under load compared to body weight only.

I think you are just making this shit up.

And, that wasn’t an insult. You seem to not know where you are so let me help you out. This is not a men’s health doing leg extensions site. It is for hard-core lifters into bodybuilding and competitive lifting. Many of these guys are huge and have a lot of lifting experience. So my advice is to just sit back and try and learn something and show a little respect.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
RJ24 wrote:
Could you substantiate your claim, Cormac?

I ask because there’s no reason the method I listed should not increase strength and size. It provides a great stimulus to the worked muscles in the form of supramaximal intensity, will cause muscle fiber damage, and has a significant TUT when the isometric hold is employed afterwards. Not only that, but the neural drive is enhanced by such methods. An increase in neural drive can easily be changed into an increase in strength with some specific work.

Personally, I think most athletes’ time should be spend perfecting the utilization of the SSC under all different kinds of loading. A mastery of the reflexive firing of the system is of prime importance to athletes whose sports are plyometricall driven.

Also, stagnation can be offset nearly indefinately by employing proper volume regulation (such as autoregulatory training).

First, I know I’m coming into this late, but I just read through the other thread and this one and thought I’d add my two cents.

Ok, so here goes, first you need to realize that CW is talking about this from a hypertrophy standpoint, not a performance standpoint. This “drop-catch” method that you speak of may in fact be a great method for improving performance.

But, honestly I think that the problem with this method is actually that it does do such a good job of recruiting the motor units. What I mean is that it produces a supermaximal stimulus and this in turn places a huge demand on the CNS.

Now at first glance, this would seem to suggest that this system would be great since MU recruitment is an important part of building muscle. But, this is an incorrect way of looking at training. You can’t just look at a single workout and determine how effective it’s going to be, because building muscle is a long term process (or at least a significant amount of muscle). So, it doesn’t really matter how effective a single workout is, or how well it stimulated the MU’s, or fatigued the fibers, or what not.

What matters is that the program allows one to continue to make steady consistent progress and improve over the long term (read years). Now, might this system allow for progress? Yeah. But generally systems that use supermaximal methods are extremely hard on the CNS/recovery systems and therefore cannot be followed for long periods of time and also don’t allow for steady, noticeable, consistent progress (in terms of load).

Of course, you may be correct that with proper volume regulation these pitfalls can be avoided. So, here’s my advice. Stick to this program, utilize it to the letter (since you said that you have inside information which would allow you to do so), get freaky huge and then come back here in a few years and post your before and after pics. If you do this then no one will be able to argue with you, you will have concrete proof that this “drop-catch” system works great for hypertrophy.

If you don’t want to do this (for whatever reason), then fine, but don’t expect anyone to believe in the efficacy of this system. And, just so you don’t think that I’m a fanboy myself (though I do respect CW and find his ideas interesting), I’ve yet to see any pics of guys who have gotten huge off of CW’s system either (IamMarqaos’s before and after pics are the most convincing evidence that I’ve seen so far that CW’s system can produce notable results).

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

Sentoguy, you are my hero. You consistently say what I am tryingto say, but in a way that makes sense instead of the late night gibberish I usually end up posting. Note I am not being sarcastic.

[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Just my 2 cents.

I think Chad puts the CNS and HTMUs up in a pedestal. He comes to me as somewhat fundamentalistic. It’s as if he’s saying that HTMU recruitment is the only way to train. He seems to ignore the other things that contribute to muscle building (ie. hormones, endurance, hypertrophy of lower TMUs).

I’m not saying he’s wrong. In fact, he’s right. CNS and HTMUs are important in muscle building. I just wish he’d discuss how other factors come into play in regards to training.[/quote]

I absolutely agree. I think CW is thinking out loud theorising what he thinks is the ultimate. It might be a great system for some fast gains for some beginners, let’s face it every approach works. Is it the most efficient and best system? I don’t think so. If it was people would have worked that out a loooong time ago e.g Gironda.

RJ24 has raised some good points and some interesting “alternative” studies that simply don’t get mentioned much around here - all this is good - but RJ dude you have to realise you came off a bit on the brash side at first (and since) which doesn’t bother me one bit but you must realise that on T-Nation that is gonna bug people especially if they disagree with you, rightly or wrongly, basically, them’s fightin’ words.

CW certainly does seem to have an extra large passionate fanbase. Don’t know why.

Thing is, when Dave Tate writes an article, you can’t drop in and start criticising what he says, or saying it is wrong, or bullshite, or theory unproven. At least none that come to mind.

There are authors who will present a theory and highlight its flaws right from the start.

When anyone starts talking in absolutes, especially suggesting that one method is superior to all others, or the ultimate, or the next best thing, or that all other methods that have proven so successful in the past are in fact, not that great - well that is bollocks.

Furthermore when one idea is presented as something new - and in fact, it is something that is damned old - that is just silly.

As far as I am concerned, if your focus is on speed of movement for max recruitment blah blah blah then you are waaay off on the whole picture.

Similarly plyometrics are not the answer. Nothing that recruits most MUs is the answer. Training effect is SPECIFIC. You adapt to how you train and you should design training to get the adpations required.

Take isometrics. Great thing to do if isometrics are part of your sport. Like climbing. Gymnastics. Is is great for other things? Maybe to a degree but it certainly isn�??t the be all end all. Nothing is. Methods should be incorporated into training to the degree that they specifically move you towards your goals.

For beginners, any crappy system works.
For intermediate, most systems, even crappy ones, work if they eat and sleep enough.
For advanced, same thing �?? it can all work with a crap system, tonnes of food, sleep, and drugs.
For the elite, this is where the system has to be cutting edge.

For a trainer (or a novice who knows a lot) your insights and discoveries cannot be considered on the new, cutting edge, changing all past knowledge, unless you are working with the elite athletes at the top of their field.

Who cares if you are getting great results in anyone from beginner all the way up to the advanced �?? and even the really advanced. If you are not making breakthroughs with the absolute elite in the field, then your new ideas are nothing new. Especially when they have been said a thousand times over a hundred years.

For the fanboys who have made good progress using X system, big deal that does not mean that X system is the new cutting edge.

Note I am NOT in any way diminishing Chads�?? work here, on the contrary, he may in fact be on the cutting edge of super efficient, time efficient, energy efficient, results producing systems for the average-intermediate even advanced people. I would not hesitate to recommend his work. If someone came up and said �??what should I do�?? I could say �??follow Chad and ignore anyone who criticises his stuff�?? and they would do great for the rest of their life. Unless they were wanting to go Elite. But who cares about that, nobody ever gets there with things handed to them on a platter from a single guru, it is a long process of blood sweat tears wrong paths and injuries.

As for all theories �?�… if you don�??t do maximal efforts, dynamic efforts, repeated efforts, and ballistic/plyo work, AND isometic/eccentric work - then you are shortchanging yourself. The % of each that you do depends on what your goals are. But neglecting any areas is limiting. Deliberately neglecting them because you think one approach is best, is just insane. Picking a method such as ME and assuming that because it is great for powerlifting it must also be the main focus for sprinting �?? well that is plain nuts.

Basically I am saying ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL �?? so stop trying to find one size and convince everyone that it fits. (that is not directed at anyone specifically).

[quote]Magarhe wrote:

Basically I am saying ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL �?? so stop trying to find one size and convince everyone that it fits. (that is not directed at anyone specifically).

[/quote]

Mag, great post. I believe you have hit the nail on the head. As I stated I’m not a fanboy of anyone and was just put off by rj’s nerd like “well golly gee wizzers, I’ve read every book by every authority in the field and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt this to be absolute truth,” bullshit. I will never take my training to that technical level anyhow. I am more in-tune with the simple caveman approach hit it hard when the body says slow down back off a bit and as CS stated change things up periodically. Anyway thanks for that insight.

D

[quote]F0rG3tNikeDoMe wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
F0rG3tNikeDoMe are you another 19 year old that needs pampers. Oh my bad your not hurt your the one doing the cuddling.
Little tootsie wootsie went and got his Mommie thats so cute.

…I’m his “mommy” now?

You ever stop and think maybe you can’t see the debate because like him your blinded by www.latestinternetresearchfad.com. I’m waiting to see waves of new lifters blasting past the current record holders by drop catching bench presses in the gym for a workout.

I’m not “blinded” by anything,i was’nt advocating the use of his preference, i was stating that healthy debates are good for the bodybuilding community. Its people like you that jump to innacurate conclusions, like the one you just presented, that ruin all possibilities of a positive debate.

your missing the point of my post buddy…

[/quote]

lol Your the only one missing the point. There has been plenty of healthy debate on this topic with him, the point of my post is that its pretty bitchy to complain about getting flamed on the internet. Either respond or wipe it off but to cry why is everyone picking on me? Thats as bad as the guy who drove across the country to burn someone’s house down.

This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but…

Cormac,

Who the hell are you to go around calling anyone “skinny” or chastise anyone for overthinking their training? You are the one posting mountains of studies and felating the olympic lifts in a thread where a guy simply asked how to get bigger legs.

This has somethign to do with the topic of this thread:

Can we please not discus CW methods anymore? Im fucking tired of hearing about this and Im sure the majority of people on this board are too. Lifting fast is not a new nor is a revolutionary idea. Stop talking about it and do it.

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
a long well informed post

[/quote]

Thank you.

[quote]Magarhe wrote:

Sentoguy, you are my hero. You consistently say what I am tryingto say, but in a way that makes sense instead of the late night gibberish I usually end up posting. Note I am not being sarcastic.

[/quote]

Thanks Mag. :slight_smile:

Don’t shortchange yourself though. I can’t recall reading a post of yours that didn’t bring up good points to the discussion.

Good training,

Sentoguy

Just post this insider info that you are using to speak down to everyone else.

Long Duration Isos
Max Strength Work- Rebound/ Plyos
Force Absorption Drills
Inertial Machine Work

Thanks for the positive feedback, sometimes I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. And more often than not, I feel like there are so many things I just can’t put into words.

See, training is an ART, not just a science. It really is, and you have to not only learn about different approaches but also know how your body is going on a certain day etc… and make it all come together.

Never underestimate the value of a system that can easily fit into your lifestyle, your work, your gym, you family etc… and for reasons like that, Chad’s work is really good. So are many different approaches. Is it optimal, or the best, or even something really new? I don’t know, probably not. But hey everything is new to someone who never heard of it before, and with wide, popular appeal, and interesting books and articles, this info is going to be new and revolutionary to a lot of people.

Do you guys know what a Nintendo Wii is? I look forward to the day someone programs that thing so you can strap it to the barbell and measure the speed of acceleration and have it beep when it slows down a lot. Ha! You could program that thing into an entire workout. I think that is going to be the future, but no doubt it will be gimmicky at first, for sale on late night TV.

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
I look forward to the day someone programs that thing so you can strap it to the barbell and measure the speed of acceleration and have it beep when it slows down a lot. Ha! You could program that thing into an entire workout. I think that is going to be the future, but no doubt it will be gimmicky at first, for sale on late night TV.

[/quote]

Actually, things like that exist. They’re a great way to map progress and assess fatigue. Instead of just upping the weight when it gets light, you can map out your bar speed and only increase the weight once you reach a certain level. Like you could start with 185 on hang cleans and only increase the weight once you could pull it faster than 1.5 m/s.

The more expensive of these machines are the Tendo Unit and the Micro Muscle Lab. If you’re strapped for cash, search for the Max Rack Power Factor unit.

When I realizes rj was only 19 years old I must admit I had a bit of envy. I have said on many occasions if I knew then what I know now where could I have gone. This is something some of the seasoned guys might get. RJ already does know a lot of info. Now lets see if he can implement his obvious knowledge over the upcoming years. Knowing is not doing but you must know in order to do.

jsal33

[quote]jsal33 wrote:
When I realizes rj was only 19 years old I must admit I had a bit of envy. I have said on many occasions if I knew then what I know now where could I have gone. This is something some of the seasoned guys might get. RJ already does know a lot of info. Now lets see if he can implement his obvious knowledge over the upcoming years. Knowing is not doing but you must know in order to do.

jsal33 [/quote]

If only he could figure out something simple like lifting weights won’t make you bigger if you don’t have an excess of calories. Not to mention the fact that upper body strength can make you a better sprinter. I just think it’s a waste to have all of this knowledge and not use it.

hum… u know, somebody once said:
“Everything works! For about 6 weeks”

I think we ought to keep that in mind…

Jsal, thanks. And I’m fairly confident I can apply what I know. I have so far.

Ben, what makes you think I’m not using my knowledge? My own training is going very well and those who I’ve helped aren’t doing bad either. For instance, I got my little brother ATG front squatting 115 for sets of 8 at 12 years old. His vertical leap has also risen by over 6" during the few months I’ve been training him. It seems like I’m able to apply my knowledge quite well.

Don’t u gas early? Shouldn’t you focus more on endurance work for a while, if you are already explosive enough.
Just finished reading speedtrap lol.