Different Philosophies About Training

Hello guys, i’m confused by 2 different philosophies about strength training.

The 1st(more common one):

-Lift as fast as possible, even on warm up sets.
Reason: To maximize power output, improve neuron efficiency and imrprove explosive strength.

-Train till failure, push yourself to the limit until your last rep is really the last rep.
Reason: So that you’ll improve.

The 2nd one(mainly from Pavel Tsatsouline and charles poliquin)

-Lift slowly, even on warm up sets.
Reason: Force = tension in muscles, so to train for strength, lift slowly so to learn how to use tension when lifting.

-Don’t train to failure, do about 3-4 reps of what you can do 5.
Reason: training till failure can cause the body to give up easily when encountering slight hardship. Grease the groove instead.)

What do you guys think?

Personally i use both strategies to an extent. On my big lifts (bench, squat, DL) my goal is to train speed and strength. By training speed and strength, you train your CNS to recruit more muscle fibers to explode the weight up. Time under tension is more of a hypertrophy training tool. When used to together though you can really get great results for building both size and strength if that is the goal.

As for training to failure vs. not, I don’t really believe in training to failure. Think of it this way, your goal is to complete the lift as if you would in a meet correct? If this is the case why are you going to intentionally train to the point where you need someone to spot the lift? It means that you were overreaching a bit and required someone to assist (ie. lessen the load). My feeling is the goal should always be to complete the lift without help.

[quote]Shedosk wrote:
Personally i use both strategies to an extent. On my big lifts (bench, squat, DL) my goal is to train speed and strength. By training speed and strength, you train your CNS to recruit more muscle fibers to explode the weight up. Time under tension is more of a hypertrophy training tool. When used to together though you can really get great results for building both size and strength if that is the goal.

As for training to failure vs. not, I don’t really believe in training to failure. Think of it this way, your goal is to complete the lift as if you would in a meet correct? If this is the case why are you going to intentionally train to the point where you need someone to spot the lift? It means that you were overreaching a bit and required someone to assist (ie. lessen the load). My feeling is the goal should always be to complete the lift without help.
[/quote]

Thanks for the reply!

But i don’t think pavel in his power to the people is talking about time until tension for bodybuilding, it’s purely strength(maybe even strength while maintaining weight) He mentions that force is created by the tension in muscles, so the more tensed your muscle is, the more force you produce, and if you lift fast, your muscles won’t be tense.

It’s purely strength training. Poliquin in his book poliquin’s principles also mentions something like this.

Here is the secret. It doesnt matter what you do. Just do it as hard as fucking possible and it will work. Every program is the best program for for everyone. The only reason they dont work is because the people putting these programs into action don’t work hard enough. I got pretty strong in college doing straigh linear progression. Now that football is over, I have been getting stronger doing modified conjugate training. The only reason there has been any gains at all is because I kill myself every workout. The only difference I’ve seen between doing different programs is some dont make your joints feel as shitty. Dont know if this really answers your question but I thought it was worth saying. haha.

[quote]Zendefone wrote:
Hello guys, i’m confused by 2 different philosophies about strength training.

The 1st(more common one):

-Lift as fast as possible, even on warm up sets.
Reason: To maximize power output, improve neuron efficiency and imrprove explosive strength.

-Train till failure, push yourself to the limit until your last rep is really the last rep.
Reason: So that you’ll improve.

The 2nd one(mainly from Pavel Tsatsouline and charles poliquin)

-Lift slowly, even on warm up sets.
Reason: Force = tension in muscles, so to train for strength, lift slowly so to learn how to use tension when lifting.

-Don’t train to failure, do about 3-4 reps of what you can do 5.
Reason: training till failure can cause the body to give up easily when encountering slight hardship. Grease the groove instead.)

What do you guys think?[/quote]

Both are true just different methods.PERIOD.

And what are you confused about which to do? Thats up to you and its hard to tell cause im not you. How have you made gains in the past? IS it more closely related to 1 or 2?

[quote]motherofpearl2 wrote:

[quote]Zendefone wrote:
Hello guys, i’m confused by 2 different philosophies about strength training.

The 1st(more common one):

-Lift as fast as possible, even on warm up sets.
Reason: To maximize power output, improve neuron efficiency and imrprove explosive strength.

-Train till failure, push yourself to the limit until your last rep is really the last rep.
Reason: So that you’ll improve.

The 2nd one(mainly from Pavel Tsatsouline and charles poliquin)

-Lift slowly, even on warm up sets.
Reason: Force = tension in muscles, so to train for strength, lift slowly so to learn how to use tension when lifting.

-Don’t train to failure, do about 3-4 reps of what you can do 5.
Reason: training till failure can cause the body to give up easily when encountering slight hardship. Grease the groove instead.)

What do you guys think?[/quote]

Both are true just different methods.PERIOD.[/quote]

True dat. You could even mix and match. Train slowly to failure or explosive and never to failure.

Do whatever you like the most and like Storm said ‘train your ass off’. I find slow lifting boring, and some lifts I’ll do 'till failure and others not. It’s up to you to find what works and what you like.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Here is the secret. It doesnt matter what you do. Just do it as hard as fucking possible and it will work. Every program is the best program for for everyone. The only reason they dont work is because the people putting these programs into action don’t work hard enough. I got pretty strong in college doing straigh linear progression. Now that football is over, I have been getting stronger doing modified conjugate training. The only reason there has been any gains at all is because I kill myself every workout. The only difference I’ve seen between doing different programs is some dont make your joints feel as shitty. Dont know if this really answers your question but I thought it was worth saying. haha.[/quote]

QFT

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Here is the secret. It doesnt matter what you do. Just do it as hard as fucking possible and it will work. Every program is the best program for for everyone. The only reason they dont work is because the people putting these programs into action don’t work hard enough. I got pretty strong in college doing straigh linear progression. Now that football is over, I have been getting stronger doing modified conjugate training. The only reason there has been any gains at all is because I kill myself every workout. The only difference I’ve seen between doing different programs is some dont make your joints feel as shitty. Dont know if this really answers your question but I thought it was worth saying. haha.[/quote]

Eggzactly.

Lift as fast as possible for the big movements like presses squat deadlifts, rows olympic lifts

Lift slowly in all the isolation stuff like biceps triceps, and pretty much everything taht involves cables

to train or not to failure…depends of the phase of the training cycle youre in

[quote]Shedosk wrote:
Personally i use both strategies to an extent. On my big lifts (bench, squat, DL) my goal is to train speed and strength. By training speed and strength, you train your CNS to recruit more muscle fibers to explode the weight up. Time under tension is more of a hypertrophy training tool. When used to together though you can really get great results for building both size and strength if that is the goal.
[/quote]

Agree with Shedosk…I never intentionally train to fail. I miss lifts left and right, but it’s not like I’m under the bar and I’m not stopping until I fail. It’s more like I’m shooting for a triple with X weight and I only make a double and miss the 3rd rep. Or I’m going for a single and I get buried.

That training to failure was a Mike Mentzer program, I believe it was called HIT and from what I understand, it only worked well for Mike Mentzer, so there’s been some debate about whether or not he actually trained like that.

In the powerlifting world, speed is king. That doesn’t mean blast out every rep with speed and blow your joints apart in the process…The idea with speed/percents/explosive training is to use a weight that you can exert maximal force on without overaccelerating the weight.

Consider this-(basic physics)
If you have 100 lbs. barbell, how much force do you need to move said barbell? If you said 100 lbs. you’d be wrong, 100________100 = stalemate. You have to exert MORE THAN 100 lbs. of force on 100 lbs. load in order for it to move. So, if you exert 101 lbs. on 100 lbs. how fast is it going to move? Very slowly. What about 110 lbs. or 120 lbs.? The more force you exert on the barbell the faster it’s going to move right? right.

This illustrates the fact that you can exert more force on a barbell than is actually loaded. In fact, everyone does it, every day at every gym across the world. They just don’t think about what is happening.

Now, here’s part II
There reaches a point where you cannot exert any additional force on a particular weight. I’m not a physics major, but the best way I know how to explain this is a whiffle ball. I don’t care if you’re a major league baseball player, there’s not enough mass in a whiffle ball to exert much force on it. It tops out pretty quick. Meaning, regardless of how well you can throw a baseball, it’s impossible to exert much force on the whiffle ball.

Apply this to the weight room. If you bench press 500 lbs. and you have 100 lbs. on the bar, that weight might top out at 200 lbs. So it is impossible to apply 500+ lbs. of force on that 100 lbs. of weight. This is where you get into Westside Barbell Philosophy etc. on percentages etc…after awhile the percentages don’t matter once you know what you’re looking for speed wise. The percentages have changed over the years but it has always been something like 50% of your max for speed training. So if you’re a 500 lbs. bencher, you’d use 250 for speed work and do your best to apply 500+ lbs. of force on that 250 lbs. of weight.

And finally…when you’re lifting maximal weights, you’re trying to apply max force on the weight regardless of what is actually on the bar. So if you trained with 250 lbs. for speed/explosiveness, and you have 500 lbs. on the bar, you’re still trying to be explosive…it just doesn’t look like it because you’re applying say 501 lbs. of force on a 500 lbs. load.

Explosiveness / speed training in a nutshell. Hope it was helpful.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Here is the secret. It doesnt matter what you do. Just do it as hard as fucking possible and it will work. Every program is the best program for for everyone. The only reason they dont work is because the people putting these programs into action don’t work hard enough. I got pretty strong in college doing straigh linear progression. Now that football is over, I have been getting stronger doing modified conjugate training. The only reason there has been any gains at all is because I kill myself every workout. The only difference I’ve seen between doing different programs is some dont make your joints feel as shitty. Dont know if this really answers your question but I thought it was worth saying. haha.[/quote]

Best advice. Push yourself to get better.

Time under tension is important for building muscle. Firing your muscles as fast as possible is important for maximizing how much you lift. You need to utilize both methods. I don’t think training to failure does much except beat you up and slowdown recovery especially with rep work.