Wait a minute there! Compare “girls can use primo because it’s low in androgens and it won’t fuck with their voice” and “girls must not use Dianabol because it will fuck with their voice”. How did you get to “D-bol is low in adrogens, primo is low in adrogens” if they have such different effects? They are, after all, androgenic, not anabolic side-effects.
From Bill Roberts:
"Like methandrostenolone (Dianabol), oxymetholone does not bind well to the androgen receptor (AR), and most of the anabolism it provides is via non-AR-mediated effects. It is therefore a Class II steroid and is best stacked with a Class I steroid. The drug appears to give the same benefits as Dianabol. "
So, using the same logic, Anadrol has no androgenic activity to write home about either then?
Here is your answer, Herr_English, again, from Bill Roberts:
“…with Primobolan or trenbolone acetate, Anadrol is to be preferred (though Dianabol is still a good choice) because Anadrol does not aromatize.”
Well, I never said that girls shouldn’t do d-bol… I don’t know if they should or not… it is MILDLY androgenic. The reason that people lose their gains with test has nothing at all to do with water retention p22 although it can easily be misconstrued that way. Take me for example… I run clomid and a little bit of letrozole in cycle. I have VERY little estrogen in my system and I am retaining NO water. Guess what, I will lose some strength due to the fact that my endogenous test is shut down. On primo, you never shut down your endogenous test and therefore have no crash in androgens… THAT is why people don’t lose their gains.
…you can be a fuckin retard, juice, and still make gains. I have seen it. Moral of the story here boys…It doesn’t matter what the fuck you take…it is still better than not taking anything at all. hence, as P-Dog would say…SHUT THE FUCK UP AND JUICE!
Squatty, does your bratwurst-clitted GF doing 50mg Dbol ED have anything to do with your backing off on chicks and gear?
Sheesh! I’d never want a chick I cared about to do Dbol. Unless I got into bald, manly chicks and needed her to lift heavy stuff for me. Then I guess a little bit wouldn’t hurt.
SQUATTY- No I do not agree. Testosterone directly causes the kidneys to reduce excretion of phosphorus, nitrogen, potassium, sodium, and chloride, it also causes the kidneys to produce EPO (erythropoietin) which causes an increase in hematocrit levels. The retention of these elements is the culprit for fluid retention since water will always follow salt to ensure fluid levels stay near 0.9% NaCl in H2O. Yes Estrogen causes some water retention, but when your banging a gram of test per week odds pretty much are that your water retention is more likely the cause of the test then the estrogen. Now some steroids act to lesser degree on the kidneys, Methenolone just happens to be one of these - just like steroids have different affinity to the AR, they cause different effects else where in the body! And that my friend is pretty much the reason why you don’t loose as much of the percentage of your weight gain on primo versus test after a cycle
The next comment you made regarding women taking dbol, I can’t be as nice. That was a pretty asinine thing for you to say. Dbol is very simmilar in structure to test, and in women, it is highly androgenic. Irreversable effects can occur in women in less then two weeks when taking only a few tabs per day - just ask the East German Woman’s swim team. So unless the women you know would like beards and hoarse voices I wouldn’t be recomending this drug to any of em. - P22
"Well, I never said that girls shouldn’t do d-bol… I don’t know if they should or not… "
Please note the part where I said “I DONT KNOW IF THEY SHOULD OR NOT!!!” I know nothing about the differences in androgenic activity in men and women’s bodies as a result of different androgens. In fact, I had no idea that a drug could be more androgenic in a womans body than a man’s. In fact, I’d love for you to explain that to the forum… we can all learn. You can’t claim that my statement was asenine because I never said that women should take d-bol… i said that I dont know if they should or not. I did something which I rarely do… I admitted that I DID NOT KNOW!
In regards to our other arguement, I think we will have to agree to disagree. Test does cause water retention in other mechanisms other than elevated estrogen. However, I feel that this is only significant at much higher dosages. I do not feel that I, being a 240 lb individual, would retain more than 4 or 5 pounds of water on a moderate dosage of test… say 600mg’s a week as I often run in a stack. 4 or 5 pounds is insignficant, and would not effect my strength to a noticeable degree post cycle. However, the rapid catabolism due to a lack of androgens and free test WOULD be a large contribution to loss of strength and size. Much larger than water retention. Since this is another difference between a primo cycle and a test cycle, I am going to have to make the assumption that the endocrinological crash is truly responsible for the difference in gains kept between a primo and test cycle. Don’t take my word for it… please allow me to post some info…
Drugs like Primobolan do tend to allow you to keep gains more so than others, but the reasons don’t have much to do with “striving to reach equilibrium” and more to do with physiology and endocrinology. ok… not to helpful… how about this one…
There are three key determinants of whether you keep a good portion of your “gains” after the cessation of a cycle. One is the degree of inhibition of your endogenous Testosterone production or effect on the HPTA. Two is the amount of water retention or edema caused by the drug during usage, and three is ? this one being a little more on the “iffy” side ? whether it causes simple hypertrophy of skeletal muscle or the activation of satellite cells, leading to the formation of new muscle fibers. This last one isn’t totally solid, but there’s evidence supporting it.(1,2)
Well, as it turns out… and much as I expected… we are both right. It is clear that a crash in androgens and the sudden release of stored water will cause one to “lose their gains”. Which one is a larger factor? I stick with the crash in androgens… but hey, we may still have to agree to disagree.
One other thing that I would like to add is that P22 is in the medical field and thus is highly knowledgeable about many things which we are not. This man should definitly be listened to.
Squatty you have a point but lets just get one thing clear: Protein catabolism is a process that takes much longer then diureses. That been said once the level of testosterone drops below levels in which it asserts its effects on the kidneys, the first thing thats going to happen is a return to normal fluid and electrolyte balances. This could be characterized by the loss of a “moon face”, reduction of edema- most notably ankle swelling, and a loss of weight d/t the diureses. Now this initial loss is the difference I speak of. You can easily monitor this water gain and loss simply by measuring the circumference of your ankles or checking for ankle edema by pressing down firmly with your thumb on the soft tissue of your ankle then releasing and timing how long the skin takes to return to normal note the depth of the pitting and the time the skin takes to resolve- this is called pitting edema which is common in elderly with peripheral vascular disorders or valvular problems causing conjestive heart failure, in Steroid users this can occur just because of water retention- even five pounds of water is a lot to overload the body’s circulatory system, pushing fluid to the interstitial tissues, in fact in hospital, patients with chronic diseases to their circulatory system are weight every day to ensure that their diuretics are doing the job, a gain of just one pound in a day could spell trouble… anyway sorry for rambling Squatty, and that for the props… the conclusion is that the initial weight loss is water, followed by protien catabolism which is a much slower, gradual process.
Interesting stuff… however, can this loss in water weight be misconstrued as a loss in muscle mass? Yes, it will make a 170 lb man look a bit smaller but it will not effect his strength, which is what I use to judge my losses post cycle. In terms of body composition when one loses this weight, if examined by hydrostatic weighing (or calipers to a lesser degree) it would NOT signify a loss of muscle or a gain of fat. Most likely just a loss of fat being that the buoyency (spelling?) of adipose tissue is similar to that of water as lean muscle tissue is not. The only question I am asked when I get my body fat checked is, “are you dehydrated” because that will effect the readings. Basically, if people cared enough to actually have their body comp tested post cycle to measure losses, this water weight would not show up as a loss… it might be considered a gain depending on how sensitive adipose tissue actually is to retaining water. The only losses that I care about are losses in lean muscle mass (or a gain in fat) and this can only really be caused by the catabolic chain of events associated with a crash in androgens… endogenous or exogenous. However, if we want to talk about the ILLUSION of losses, I would agree that the water weight would be the first and foremost noticed.
Yes and that gain of water is the reason many think that they gain a substantialy more amount of lean muscle while on testosterone then on primo, however, if you could afford to do an 8 weeker of a gram of primo… I wonder what the results would be?
